I want the truth , no beating around the bush

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Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
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#41
The Word of God is perfect. The Bible proves the Bible. There may be passages that seem to you contradictory,..Judas hanged himself from a tree/ Judas guts spilled in a field...both are true. What are you referring to? No better time than now to get the truth you earnestly seek.

Skeptics often point-out this contradiction to claim the bible is fallible. I found a link which presented an alternative theory, which makes sense to me. The description of his suicide differs, but both could be accurate?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5)

"Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out"
(Acts 1:18).


Ancient terminology did not recognize “hanging” just as hanging from a rope, but as hanging on anything. For instance, it is said accurately that Jesus was “hung” on a tree, even though he was nailed there. I believe Judas hung himself not with a rope around his neck, but by impaling himself on a pike causing his intestines to spill-out which in ancient terminology would have been referred to as “Judas hanging himself.” The bible isn't specific, but it says Judas fell headlong, not as a person falling feet-first from a rope. So its likely he secured a spear into the ground, piled up some stones, and jumped/fell headfirst, thus making Matthew and Acts correct.

Here's a link;
How did Judas die? Hanging himself after throwing his blood money away at a temple, or having his guts burst out in a field he bought with the same money? (Matthew 27:5) v's (Acts 1:18) | Answerbag
 
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May 15, 2013
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#42
The Word of God is perfect. The Bible proves the Bible. There may be passages that seem to you contradictory,..Judas hanged himself from a tree/ Judas guts spilled in a field...both are true. What are you referring to? No better time than now to get the truth you earnestly seek.
A potter's field is fill with broken up pottery that doesn't has any use. It normally in a field that doesn't have any value and the pottery is tossed over a cliff into a valley where no one roams. And there was probably a dead old tree that's leaning over the cliff that the fruits of the tree produces were bad fruits that fell from the tree and splattered on the ground.
 
Nov 24, 2013
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#43
Also consider what theologically makes sense? From the NIV; "7) For there are three that testify:8) the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." Where in the bible do you find a verse like vs 7? Its like finding a verse that only says "Jesus saith". Its an awkward rendering and seems obvious to me that the remainder of verse 7 was removed.

From 1 John 5:7-8 (KJV). The omitted words in the NIV are capitalized;
7) "For there are three that bear witness IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. 8) AND THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR WITNESS IN EARTH, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." Note that a forger would have likely used "the Son", instead of "The Word" which is only consistent with John's writing style; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). "And his name is called The Word of God"( Revelation 19:13). "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me" (John 8:18). It all consistently flows together.

Also consider the relevancy of vs 9) "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son". If the Johannine Comma is removed, then where is the witness of God spoken of in the verse? It is not there, the context is completely muddled in the NIV.
Let's compare it to the original manuscripts oh wait... there is none <> ,World&#39;s Oldest Bible confirms the Qur&#39;an :The Bible has been CORRUPTED, ALTERED AND EDITED !! - YouTube,A New Testament scholar proves what the Quran said about the bible 1400 years ago. - YouTube
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#44
Only 101? lol, looks like I have homework to do. I'll have to get back to ya on that. ok?
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
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#46
@dan58, The bible was written after the death of Jesus okay. So the people who spread the quotations and teachings of Jesus are spread by an" evil and adulterous generation"Mathew 12:39 . The people who spread the teachings of Jesus were evil according to Jesus true ? :p his own words ? Now @ karraster i'll show you contradictions and explain them to me please :)
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/YaBBAttachments/101_Contradictions_In_The_Bible.pdf

Not at all.... You misinterpreted the verse; "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas" (Matthew 12:39). Jesus was referring to the generation who demanded a sign, not the apostles he chose, those inspired to write the gospels. All of those contradictions from your link are nonsense, all can be addressed, but unfortunately there's not room here to write a book.. :)
 
Nov 24, 2013
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#47

Not at all.... You misinterpreted the verse; "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas" (Matthew 12:39). Jesus was referring to the generation who demanded a sign, not the apostles he chose, those inspired to write the gospels. All of those contradictions from your link are nonsense, all can be addressed, but unfortunately there's not room here to write a book.. :)
2.In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)

I don't appreciate deceit.... That is a contradiction and that is simply at the second one so don't lie :/ and secondly
the scribes were asking for the sign because they didn't believe jesus .First have a look at my link yeah .Relax btw if the bible was really changed the person who changed it is going to the worst of hells translated in english as "woe "
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#48
it's cool man :) take your time
I have to go, but just wanted to say, I believe the Bible, KJV is my preference, and I learned most of the stories sittin on my grandma's knee. I don't remember a time I didn't believe God sent His only Son to save me, and that's my story. I feel His presence, He is with me always. I can understand to some degree that unbelievers may have inherited those beliefs or non beliefs however you will, from their parents/grandparents. I don't push Jesus on anybody. All I can do is to live for Him and convey Him in the way I know how. Grace and peace:)
 
Nov 24, 2013
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#49
I have to go, but just wanted to say, I believe the Bible, KJV is my preference, and I learned most of the stories sittin on my grandma's knee. I don't remember a time I didn't believe God sent His only Son to save me, and that's my story. I feel His presence, He is with me always. I can understand to some degree that unbelievers may have inherited those beliefs or non beliefs however you will, from their parents/grandparents. I don't push Jesus on anybody. All I can do is to live for Him and convey Him in the way I know how. Grace and peace:)
I believe the bible too but whether we have the original bible or an alteration is a different story ? :S I believe god is perfect and only man makes mistakes hence if the bible has a single scientific or linguistic mistake then its been corrupted
 
S

Sanashankar

Guest
#50
The bible was originally written a number of years after the death of Jesus Christ.Now my question is the King James Version is based on a later manuscript compared to the New International Version which uses a manuscript earlier to the death of Jesus Christ?
In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 7
The King James Version states :"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This sounds like the trinity
However the earlier manuscript in the New International version states : "
For there are three that testify"

Isn't this proof an alteration to the later manuscripts and show a sense of corruption.If you disagree please note why you do.Thank you, keep in my mind it isn't my intention to offend nor hurt anyone.
The truth is, all the italicized words in the above text are not part of the original writings of John. Those words are not found in any of the several thousand Greek manuscripts except four, and those four are Greek translations from a late rendition of the Latin Vulgate. Even those four Greek manuscripts are late in origin. One was written in the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] century. Another was written in the 12[SUP]th[/SUP] century which had the italicized words inserted in the margin by a later hand. Another was written in the 14[SUP]th[/SUP] or 15[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries. The fourth was an 11[SUP]th[/SUP] century manuscript which had the extra words in the margin placed there by someone living in the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century. The extra words are not found in any ancient version (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic) except the Latin. Even then they are not found in the Old Latin or the early Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome. The erroneous words were introduced into the Vulgate at a later time, probably in the 5th or 6th centuries. Without doubt, the italicized words mentioned above in l John 5:7 are not original with the apostle John and are thus not a part of the genuine text of the New Testament.
(by ernest.l.martin)


See Professor Bruce M. Metzger’s A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] edition (Fortress Press, 1995), pp. 716–718 for certain proof of this
 
B

Bryancampbell

Guest
#51
I believe the bible too but whether we have the original bible or an alteration is a different story ? :S I believe god is perfect and only man makes mistakes hence if the bible has a single scientific or linguistic mistake then its been corrupted
Doesn't make sense, why would God let all of mankind only possess a corrupt bible? He doesn't, He makes sure we have the truth.
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
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#52
That's true, there are no original manuscripts, only copies. I don't think its a coincidence that those who find contradictions in the bible, never believed it in the first place. "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" (Matthew 11:25). Be careful of these so-called "scholars", most of them that I've read don't know squat. Everyone's got an opinion, but the bible is its own best evidence of its authenticity. I prefer and trust scripture over the non-believing YouTube schmucks, their opinions are biased and coming from a position based in non-belief. I've yet to see a point-blank contradiction.. From a biblical perspective, all have no credibility and are easily answered.
 
Nov 24, 2013
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#53
Doesn't make sense, why would God let all of mankind only possess a corrupt bible? He doesn't, He makes sure we have the truth.
He sent down another book ? and in this book what does Elah the god of the holy quran say ? listen to this but again like my name says im looking for the truth so im here to seek guidance if theres any evidence i missed but anyways this is what Elah the god of the hebrew bible says in the quran supposedly "{We have, without doubt, sent down the Reminder [i.e., the Quran]; and We will assuredly guard it [from corruption].} (Al-Hijr 15:9)" and the quran is the only holy book with original manuscripts that date back to the prophet muhammad. I may be wrongg but then again im open to criticism
 
Nov 24, 2013
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#54
That's true, there are no original manuscripts, only copies. I don't think its a coincidence that those who find contradictions in the bible, never believed it in the first place. "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" (Matthew 11:25). Be careful of these so-called "scholars", most of them that I've read don't know squat. Everyone's got an opinion, but the bible is its own best evidence of its authenticity. I prefer and trust scripture over the non-believing YouTube schmucks, their opinions are biased and coming from a position based in non-belief. I've yet to see a point-blank contradiction.. From a biblical perspective, all have no credibility and are easily answered.
I've shown you so many quotes and you just deny and deny and deny .For the last time i will show you again http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/YaBBAttachments/101_Contradictions_In_The_Bible.pdf the second one is true .
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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#55
Also consider what theologically makes sense? From the NIV; "7) For there are three that testify:8) the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." Where in the bible do you find a verse like vs 7? Its like finding a verse that only says "Jesus saith". Its an awkward rendering and seems obvious to me that the remainder of verse 7 was removed.

From 1 John 5:7-8 (KJV). The omitted words in the NIV are capitalized;
7) "For there are three that bear witness IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. 8) AND THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR WITNESS IN EARTH, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." Note that a forger would have likely used "the Son", instead of "The Word" which is only consistent with John's writing style; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). "And his name is called The Word of God"( Revelation 19:13). "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me" (John 8:18). It all consistently flows together.

Also consider the relevancy of vs 9) "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son". If the Johannine Comma is removed, then where is the witness of God spoken of in the verse? It is not there, the context is completely muddled in the NIV.
A couple of fundamental objections:

1) Cyprian, in the text used to justify the Comma, De catholicae ecclesiae unitate 6, refers to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 1 John 5 uses Father, Word and Holy Spirit. So even if I were to accept that Cyprian is referring to 1 John 5, he is obviously not quoting from it, because he is using different words.

2. In any case, it is easy to prove Cyprian is not quoting here separately. Here is what he writes:

“The Lord says, ‘I and the Father are one’; and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one.’"
As you can see above, he takes a quotation (which one could surmised is 1 John 5), but applies the trinitarian motif not as a direct quotation, but as an interpretation. Now, that interpretation might have merit, but the point still stands - Cyprian does not quote the Father, Son and Spirit from 1 John 5, he paraphrases the relevant part, leaving it unclear what the specific words in the original reading were.

Presumably, if the Comma was extant and genuine at the time of Cyprian, and given it so explicitly states the point he is trying to make, why not quote the relevant part of it directly, as he does with John, rather than do so indirectly, as he does with the Comma?

3) The context is clearly more muddled with an explicit trinitarian reference than with the critical reading. The context is Jesus coming by water and blood, and then the Spirit testifying to him (which would seem to be obliquely reference the baptism of Jesus) - then it proceeds to show that the three that testify are indeed the Spirit, the water and the blood. To make it about the Father, Son and Spirit actually makes less sense, because it comes out of nowhere, introduces categories absent elsewhere in 1 John (testimony in heaven and on earth, the Spirit appearing in both categories).
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
339
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#56
I've shown you so many quotes and you just deny and deny and deny .For the last time i will show you again http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/YaBBAttachments/101_Contradictions_In_The_Bible.pdf the second one is true .

I've denied nothing, I just said that I can't very well address 101 so-called contradictions on a message board.. I've seen all these skeptics list before, and am just saying that there are answers when a person fully dives into scripture, instead of pulling a verse here and a verse there. Admittedly, there are some translation discrepancies, and an occasional copyist/scribal error, but these are easily spotted and rectified. But I've found no direct contradictions, not within the KJV anyway. I will try and answer the contradiction between the verses you posted;

"And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men" (2 Samuel 24:9)

"And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword"
(1 Chronicles 21:5).

Chronicles is a different classification, it list 1,100,000 of "all they of Israel that drew sword" i.e; all adults, but not necessarily "valiant". So this 1,100,000 describes the grand total for Israel. Samuel list 800,000 "valiant men", which didn't include the standing army of 12 units of 24,000 men each (288,000) plus the 12,000 men attached to Jerusalem, both mentioned in 1 Chronicles 27:1-15 and 2 Chronicals 1:14.

With regards to Judah; Samuel says 500,000 thousand men of Judah, while Chronicles list 470,000 "men that drew sword", not all the men by 30,000. Chronicles does not include the 30,000-man standing army of Judah mentioned in 2 Samuel 6:1. If Chronicles did include those, it would match Samuel; 470,000 + 30,000 = 500,000 men.
 
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Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
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#57
A couple of fundamental objections:

1) Cyprian, in the text used to justify the Comma, De catholicae ecclesiae unitate 6, refers to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 1 John 5 uses Father, Word and Holy Spirit. So even if I were to accept that Cyprian is referring to 1 John 5, he is obviously not quoting from it, because he is using different words.

2. In any case, it is easy to prove Cyprian is not quoting here separately. Here is what he writes:



As you can see above, he takes a quotation (which one could surmised is 1 John 5), but applies the trinitarian motif not as a direct quotation, but as an interpretation. Now, that interpretation might have merit, but the point still stands - Cyprian does not quote the Father, Son and Spirit from 1 John 5, he paraphrases the relevant part, leaving it unclear what the specific words in the original reading were.

Presumably, if the Comma was extant and genuine at the time of Cyprian, and given it so explicitly states the point he is trying to make, why not quote the relevant part of it directly, as he does with John, rather than do so indirectly, as he does with the Comma?

3) The context is clearly more muddled with an explicit trinitarian reference than with the critical reading. The context is Jesus coming by water and blood, and then the Spirit testifying to him (which would seem to be obliquely reference the baptism of Jesus) - then it proceeds to show that the three that testify are indeed the Spirit, the water and the blood. To make it about the Father, Son and Spirit actually makes less sense, because it comes out of nowhere, introduces categories absent elsewhere in 1 John (testimony in heaven and on earth, the Spirit appearing in both categories).
You will find a contrary opinion to anything, but it all comes down to what a person chooses to believe. Consider that Jesus said that "I and my Father are one" and that he instructed his disciples to baptize in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Why?

The only way skeptics can separate Christ from God is to deny the triune, thus, if Jesus was not one with the Father, he could not have been divine, he has no power to save anyone, and was nothing more than a philosopher. First John 5:7-8 is consistent with everything Jesus taught, but even if the passage didn't exist, I believe it to be true. But that's just my opinion, everyone can research and determine what's true for themselves.
 
May 15, 2013
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#58
I believe the bible too but whether we have the original bible or an alteration is a different story ? :S I believe god is perfect and only man makes mistakes hence if the bible has a single scientific or linguistic mistake then its been corrupted
Yes, the Bible has been paraphrased from the original text. It is done so that the readers can understand it for the modern times which they live in, but if you are able to discern it spiritually, you can understand what the text is really saying and which that doesn't change. I had posted the reason why the paraphrasing in a earlier post about fables and how the King James was translated from its original interpretations to those modern times.

[h=1]A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush[/h]more like this......other phrases about:


[h=3]Meaning[/h]It's better to have a lesser but certain advantage than the possibility of a greater one that may come to nothing.
[h=3]Origin[/h]This proverb refers back to mediaeval falconry where a bird in the hand (the falcon) was a valuable asset and certainly worth more than two in the bush (the prey).
The first citation of the expression in print in its currently used form is found in John Ray's A Hand-book of Proverbs, 1670, in which he lists it as:
A [also 'one'] bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
By how long the phrase predates Ray's publishing isn't clear, as variants of it were known for centuries before 1670. The earliest English version of the proverb is from the Bible and was translated into English in Wycliffe's version in 1382, although Latin texts have it from the 13th century:

Ecclesiastes IX - A living dog is better than a dead lion.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-bird-in-the-hand.html
A paraphrase /ˈpærəfrz/ is a restatement of the meaning of a text or passage using other words. The term itself is derived via Latin paraphrasis fromGreek παράφρασις, meaning "additional manner of expression". The act of paraphrasing is also called "paraphrasis".
A paraphrase typically explains or clarifies the text that is being paraphrased. For example, "The signal was red" might be paraphrased as "The train was not allowed to pass because the signal was red". A paraphrase is usually introduced with a verbum dicendi​—​a declaratory expression to signal the transition to the paraphrase. For example, in "The signal was red, that is, the train was not allowed to proceed," the that is signals the paraphrase that follows.
A paraphrase does not need to accompany a direct quotation, but when this is so, the paraphrase typically serves to put the source's statement into perspective or to clarify the context in which it appeared. A paraphrase is typically more detailed than a summary. One should add the source at the end of the sentence, for example: When the light was red trains could not go (Wikipedia).
Paraphrase may attempt to preserve the essential meaning of the material being paraphrased. Thus, the (intentional or otherwise) reinterpretation of a source to infer a meaning that is not explicitly evident in the source itself qualifies as "original research," and not as paraphrase.
Unlike a metaphrase, which represents a "formal equivalent" of the source, a paraphrase represents a "dynamic equivalent" thereof. While a metaphrase attempts to translate a text literally, a paraphrase conveys the essential thought expressed in a source text​—​if necessary, at the expense of literality. For details, see dynamic and formal equivalence.
The term is applied to the genre of Biblical paraphrases, which were the most widely circulated versions of the Bible available in medieval Europe.[SUP][1][/SUP] Here, the purpose was not to render an exact rendition of the meaning or the complete text, but to present material from the Bible in a version that was theologically orthodox and not subject to heretical interpretation, or, in most cases, to take from the Bible and present to a wide public material that was interesting, entertaining and spiritually meaningful, or, simply to abridge the text.[SUP][1][/SUP]
The phrase "in your own words" is often used within this context to imply that the writer has rewritten the text in their own writing style - how they would have written it if they had created the idea.[SUP][2] [/SUP]Paraphrase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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nathan3

Guest
#59
those are not contradictions, but simple mistakes, man made. little ones. that doesn't effect any core tenants of Christianity. Arial is right. Confusion comes from men not grasping or understanding something. Not with the word ...

Those slips of the pen, would be bad, if no one could spot them. But they are easily spotted and no harm is done. It comes with the territory and God always has some one in place, he has blessed, to keep the words in order.
 
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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,108
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#60
If the trinity does exist and Jesus,the father and the holy spirit are one then may i ask why jesus prayed to the father yet the father prayed to the son.Also the father was a complete god by himself when jesus was on Earth so mathematically how much person does " Jesus " make up of the being known as god since the father is a complete god by himself
After the Fall God said this:
[h=3]Genesis 1:26-27[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And God said, Let us make man in our image,after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So we have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
And Today as it is shown by belief in /Son's finished work for you, we are made one in Father as well/
1xx1x1x1x1xx1x1xx1x1x1xx11x11xx1xx1x1xx1x1xx1x1xx1xx1x1=ONE with Father through Son, even thought as the body has many parts they all make up one body