I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

[epostle]

Jesus did not place her above other believers, so why should we ???

When others came and told Jesus His mother, brothers, and sisters were outside wishing to speak to Him; He responded by saying everyone that believes in Him are His mother, brothers, and sisters !!! Shows He places us all the same in the body.

That is not what it says.
"Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" The verse says nothing about believing in Him. (I am not saying we shouldn't)You are inserting "saving faith" into the text. Hearing the word of God is not "reading the Bible". True, we are elevated to mothers and brothers of Jesus when we hear the word of God and keep it. That makes us sons and daughters of God, not spiritual clones of Mary.

Archangels do not appear to each individual believer who keeps the will of God, bringing God's word's "Full of Grace" to them. Each individual believer who does the will of God are not called "blessed among woman." and all that it implies. Jesus is elevating anyone who does the will of God, He is not bring his mother down to the common level. That would be a violation of the 4th commandment: Honor your father and mother. You are creating a false dichotomy. It's not the "gotcha verse" you think it is. Quite the opposite.

Your interpretation is a Protestant invention to bring down Catholic BIBLICAL honor to Mary making you divorced from the early church, not to mention all the original reformers.

We are not all the same in the body. That's a communist heaven. Some have greater treasures in heaven otherwise we wouldn't need to store them up.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.[Mt 13:14]

Jesus spoke that to the Jews who couldn't tell Who He was when they were looking at him in the face.

The Whore of Babble-on psychos can't see the largest charity in the world is Jesus-on-earth.

​

Isaiah 5:20(KJV)

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[Mec99]

The problem is epostle you Catholics do not just Honor Mary, you do Worship and serve Mary as your god!

Matthew 4:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.' "



We are to Worship the Lord ONLY and ONLY are we to serve the Lord!

Every time you pray the Hail Mary you ARE making Mary your God.

Every time you Pray the Rosary you ARE making Mary your God!

Every time you bow down to a statue of Mary you ARE making Mary your God!

You are calling evil, the Worshiping of Mary, as good epostle.

You are calling evil, the bowing down to a statue of Mary, as good epostle.

Its you epostle who have been deceived and are being deceived by Satan and Catholicism to see nothing wrong with serving Mary as your God!

Exodus 20:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] You shall have no other gods before Me!!!!

Mary is your God epostle and you are too blind to see the Truth.

No one who Worships and serves Mary will be allowed to enter into Heaven because this is a Mortal sin that HAS destroyed your Soul epostle.

 

[onlinebuddy]

[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]The bible too close to your face.

You don't have to be rude to prove your point.

 

[onlinebuddy]

[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]Mary did the will of God when she said, "Be it done unto to me according to your will". She said yes. Eve said no.

I would again repeat that no one on this thread is saying she did not do the will of God. You've got to move beyond this point.

 

[onlinebuddy]

[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus is using Mary as a perfect model of faith, or he is denigrating her. Pick one.

Let me quote those verses again:
[SUP]20[/SUP]Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.[SUP]21[/SUP]When his family 2heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."[Mark 3:20]
[SUP]
31[/SUP]Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.[SUP]32[/SUP]A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."[SUP]33[/SUP]"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.[SUP]34[/SUP]Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers![SUP]35[/SUP]Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."[Mark 3:31-35]

[SUP]27[/SUP]As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."[SUP]28[/SUP]He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."[Luke 11:27]
Jesus is doing neither. Neither is he using Mary as a "perfect model of faith" nor is he denigrating her.
Therefore I can't pick one. Both options are in your favour. You are using the same trick that marketing companies use in order to sell their products.

Can you show me in the above verses, the exact words that Jesus uses to portray Mary as a "perfect model of faith?" You will not find any such words! In fact you will not find any such words in the entire NT where Jesus exalted his mother. If he did, catholics would use those words to glorify mary as they use the chapter of Luke 1.
Jesus is refraining from exalting his mother, because he was aware of the human tendencies of glorifying people in place of God(History is replete with instances of mother-son worship). Sadly, catholics are doing the very thing Jesus is refraining from doing-i.e. worshiping mary.

Talking along the same lines, in Acts 10:26, Peter did not allow Cornelius to fall at his feet, saying "I am only a man myself".
Paul and Barnabas were furious and tore their clothes when they heard that the people of Lystra wanted to worship them for performing a miracle. [Acts 14:15] Sadly, catholics are doing exactly this- i.e. praying and worshiping saints!

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Not wishing to hijack this thread but I have been chatting with a RC today at work, he often approaches me to discuss "my lot" as he calls anything that isn't RC. Maybe he is listening to the things I say but he is not a young man and was raised in a RC family and also in a RC community so turning his thought-process around would be no easy task. He has very little regard for the Bible questioning that it is God's word - preferring the man made doctrine of Catholicism, I find this ironic.

"Many will be deceived" - I often wonder if this is a reference to Roman Catholicism.

 

[onlinebuddy]

[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
BINGO! Give the man a cigar!!!

You may keep all the cigars. I don't smoke!

[SUP]27[/SUP]As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."[SUP]28[/SUP]He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."[Luke 11:27]
The point I was making was that Jesus gave importance to doing the Will of God, and not to Mary as some were doing! He was removing the focus from Mary and placing it on the Father. By doing this he is neither praising her nor denigrating her.

Would you still give me a cigar?

 

[onlinebuddy]

Sorry, folks. I messed up the above formatting badly.

it should look like this:

So Jesus said "No, not that: blessed instead..." ??? That's how you read it. Jesus said, "Blessed rather..." It is a unity, you make it a distinction.

It's neither a "unity" nor a "distinction," the way you mention it.

If it would be a "unity," catholics would generously use this verse (just as they use Luke 1:28 and blow it out of proportion) However, they never use this verse, since Jesus is not saying anything special about Mary.

Jesus did not give anyone a 'Mary-verse' to harp upon. He was wise! He knew all the mother-son and "queen of heaven" worship that went on from the Babylonian time of Nimrod and Semiramis.

Jesus is taking their focus off Mary (and this does not amount to denigrating her) and placing their focus on God- the right one.

 

[Magenta]

Would you still give me a cigar?

[video=youtube;hMr3KtYUCcI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMr3KtYUCcI[/video]

(I know you said you do not smoke, but perhaps you would appreciate a musical interlude )

 

[onlinebuddy]

Sorry, folks. I messed up the above formatting badly.

Mary was not silent when she responded to God's message delivered by an archangel. She did the will of God when she said "YES" to being the mother of the Messiah. That does not diminish Mary's role in God's plan of salvation one jot or tittle, but affirms it. She did the will of God in a rather exemplary manner. Arguing that Mary has equal rank with each individual believer is Christian communism.

Again, no one is saying that Mary did not do the will of God. Why are you so fixated on this?
And no one is diminishing Mary's role. I give Mary all the due respect and credit for her role in God's plan. Does this mean I must pray to her and venerate her and worship her?
Ultimately, what's important is God's plan, and not Mary as much.

Mary was an instrument of God, and God knows how to raise instruments to do his will from "these stones"[Mt 3:9] In his foresight, God knew Mary as the perfect instrument to bring forth the Messiah. The highlight thereafter must be on the Messiah (to whom thousands of prophecies are attributed), and not on Mary.

We must imitate the Lord Jesus and the Apostles in the amount of attention they gave to Mary; not more, not less!

 

[PoetMary]

"Many will be deceived" - I often wonder if this is a reference to Roman Catholicism.

It's not. There are a lot of deceived Protestants too...just look at the rash of WoF and OSAS boards on this site.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Sorry, folks. I messed up the above formatting badly.

That does not diminish Mary's role in God's plan of salvation one jot or tittle, but affirms it. She did the will of God in a rather exemplary manner. Arguing that Mary has equal rank with each individual believer is Christian communism.

What would you say about the role of:

Abraham, who received the promise?
Moses who talked to God face to face?
Enoch and Elijah who were carried alive to heaven?
Paul, who was caught up in the third heaven?
Peter, whom Jesus called Cephas?
Joseph, a type of Christ, who went on from sufferer to ruler?
Daniel, whom the fiery furnace could not burn?
Daniel who received end time prophecies?
John, whom Jesus revealed things not revealed even to Daniel?
David, a man after God's own heart?
Joseph, who obeyed God and helped Mary play her role?
Joshua who qualified to enter the promised land, and bring down the walls of Jerico?
Joshua, due to whose faith, God made the sun stand still, as never before and never after?
John the Baptist, whom Jesus praised more than he praised Mary?
Esther who saved an entire nation by her courage?
Deborah who was a powerful judge and brought victory to God's people?
Sarah, Rebekah, Ruth, Hannah, Jael, Mary Magdalene, Elizabeth...the list goes on. What ahout the named and unnamed "cloud of witnesses" in Heb 11?

If Mary was full of grace, David was a man after God's own heart!!! How awesome is that?
If Mary was highly favored, how much do you think God honored Joshua by listening to him (as God had listened to no man in such a manner) and making the sun stand still?
If an angel spoke to Mary, is it a small thing that the Almighty God spoke to Moses face to face?

Didn't all these great men and women of God play their part in God's plan of salvation of bringing forth Christ?
Must we exalt them? Does the Bible tell us to give them a special position? Must we pray to them? Can they intercede for us? Must we worship them?

Why Mary?????

Here's the catch: Apart from Mary, none of the above can effectively divert attention away from Jesus- the way the truth and the life!!! Satan knows that!

 

[onlinebuddy]

[video=youtube;hMr3KtYUCcI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMr3KtYUCcI[/video]

(I know you said you do not smoke, but perhaps you would appreciate a musical interlude )

Riding the gravy train That's what record companies promise the singers, and that's what prosperity preachers promise believers! What a parallel!

 

[Magenta]

It's not. There are a lot of deceived Protestants too...just look at the rash of WoF and OSAS boards on this site.

Which are the ones who are deceived? The ones who believe God's Word differently than you do? That is a far cry from the heresies that the RCC promote, some of which are nowhere to be found in Scripture, others a direct defiance of Scripture. Like comparing apples and oranges, really.

 

[Magenta]

Riding the gravy train That's what record companies promise the singers, and that's what prosperity preachers promise believers! What a parallel!

Mostly it was the record company exces who rode the gravy train. Wildly successful groups like PF did prosper, to be sure, but others were not so fortunate Chilliwack comes to mind...

 

[tik]

...That is a far cry from the heresies that the RCC promote, some of which are nowhere to be found in Scripture, others a direct defiance of Scripture. Like comparing apples and oranges, really.

You seem to be quite hostile towards Catholicism. You remind me of the some Christian cults (such as Jehovah’s witnesses) that are quite hostile towards Christianity - that’s quite alarming actually.

May I remind you that if there were no Catholicism around your denomination (which is most probably “Baptists”) would not even exist since Baptism and all the other denominations sprang out of Catholicism in 1600 AD.

Catholicism created a platform or a springboard for protestant-evangelical movement in 1600 AD. If instead of Catholicism the official religion was say Islam or Buddhism then no evangelical movement would occur in 1600. You would then be a Muslim by now or a Krishna follower or someone of that sort.

Your denomination is infantile or babyish in comparison to Catholicism. You should always remember that.

Catholicism has been around for 1600 years. Of course some shaky or weird traditions have crept in. But if Baptists or Methodists have been around for that long the same would’ve happened to them. You can travel to UK and visit some Baptist churches to see for yourself that the process has actually begun – most Baptist churches in UK are deserted

It is because of Catholic and Orthodox churches that Western and Eastern Europe became Christian. You can’t deny the extraordinary workings of the Holy Spirit through these oldest churches.

The Christian moral truths (conveyed via Catholicism) have influenced the law, art and morality of Western and Eastern Europe

Catholics and Orthodox churches are the pillars of Christian movement. You should have an overwhelming awe and respect to these two oldest Christian organizations.

So much good has been done through Catholics missionary activities

May I also remind you the cardinal truths of Catholics church as you seem to be oblivious to that. Here they are:

We worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being. So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings; there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings; there is but one almighty being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God. Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons; there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. Nothing in this trinity is before or after, nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other. So in everything we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

So we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and human, equally. He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity

Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person. For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

How can you possibly be hostile towards Catholicism after all of that? There are many people who found Jesus in their life because of attending Catholic church

Holy Spirit did work through Catholicism for 1600 years and Holy spirit still working through Catholicism. YOU SHOULD NOT BLASPHEME THE WORKINGS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OR IT WILL NEVER BE FORGIVEN TO YOU NEITHER IN THIS WORLD OR IN THE WORLD TO COME

 

[notuptome]

You seem to be quite hostile towards Catholicism. You remind me of the some Christian cults (such as Jehovah’s witnesses) that are quite hostile towards Christianity - that’s quite alarming actually.

May I remind you that if there were no Catholicism around your denomination (which is most probably “Baptists”) would not even exist since Baptism and all the other denominations sprang out of Catholicism in 1600 AD.

Catholicism created a platform or a springboard for protestant-evangelical movement in 1600 AD. If instead of Catholicism the official religion was say Islam or Buddhism then no evangelical movement would occur in 1600. You would then be a Muslim by now or a Krishna follower or someone of that sort.

Your denomination is infantile or babyish in comparison to Catholicism. You should always remember that.

Catholicism has been around for 1600 years. Of course some shaky or weird traditions have crept in. But if Baptists or Methodists have been around for that long the same would’ve happened to them. You can travel to UK and visit some Baptist churches to see for yourself that the process has actually begun – most Baptist churches in UK are deserted

It is because of Catholic and Orthodox churches that Western and Eastern Europe became Christian. You can’t deny the extraordinary workings of the Holy Spirit through these oldest churches.

The Christian moral truths (conveyed via Catholicism) have influenced the law, art and morality of Western and Eastern Europe

Catholics and Orthodox churches are the pillars of Christian movement. You should have an overwhelming awe and respect to these two oldest Christian organizations.

So much good has been done through Catholics missionary activities

May I also remind you the cardinal truths of Catholics church as you seem to be oblivious to that. Here they are:

We worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being. So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings; there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings; there is but one almighty being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God. Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons; there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. Nothing in this trinity is before or after, nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other. So in everything we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

So we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and human, equally. He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity

Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person. For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

How can you possibly be hostile towards Catholicism after all of that? There are many people who found Jesus in their life because of attending Catholic church

Holy Spirit did work through Catholicism for 1600 years and Holy spirit still working through Catholicism. YOU SHOULD NOT BLASPHEME THE WORKINGS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OR IT WILL NEVER BE FORGIVEN TO YOU NEITHER IN THIS WORLD OR IN THE WORLD TO COME

You make the outside of the cup appear clean but...Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Magenta]

You seem to be quite hostile towards Catholicism.

You seem to be quite deceived.

 

[tik]

You seem to be quite deceived.

You seem to be quite ill-informed

Catholicism used to be the most formidable Christian organization that’s been around for ages through which God has done mighty things and through which Christian values spread all over the world

why don’t you pick your own puny infantile denomination that’s been around for a tiny fraction of time and begin to criticise your own denomination instead? You might begin by telling your brothers and sisters to stop handling snakes or get rid of posters “God hates Homosexuals” or something of that sort

you remind me of a puppy barking at the truck

 

[epostle]

What would you say about the role of:

Abraham, who received the promise?
Moses who talked to God face to face?
Enoch and Elijah who were carried alive to heaven?
Paul, who was caught up in the third heaven?
Peter, whom Jesus called Cephas?
Joseph, a type of Christ, who went on from sufferer to ruler?
Daniel, whom the fiery furnace could not burn?
Daniel who received end time prophecies?
John, whom Jesus revealed things not revealed even to Daniel?
David, a man after God's own heart?
Joseph, who obeyed God and helped Mary play her role?
Joshua who qualified to enter the promised land, and bring down the walls of Jerico?
Joshua, due to whose faith, God made the sun stand still, as never before and never after?
John the Baptist, whom Jesus praised more than he praised Mary?
Esther who saved an entire nation by her courage?
Deborah who was a powerful judge and brought victory to God's people?
Sarah, Rebekah, Ruth, Hannah, Jael, Mary Magdalene, Elizabeth...the list goes on. What ahout the named and unnamed "cloud of witnesses" in Heb 11?

If Mary was full of grace, David was a man after God's own heart!!! How awesome is that?
If Mary was highly favored, how much do you think God honored Joshua by listening to him (as God had listened to no man in such a manner) and making the sun stand still?
If an angel spoke to Mary, is it a small thing that the Almighty God spoke to Moses face to face?

Didn't all these great men and women of God play their part in God's plan of salvation of bringing forth Christ?
Must we exalt them? Does the Bible tell us to give them a special position? Must we pray to them? Can they intercede for us? Must we worship them?

Why Mary?????

Here's the catch: Apart from Mary, none of the above can effectively divert attention away from Jesus- the way the truth and the life!!! Satan knows that!

If you bother to notice, Catholicism gives honor to all the saints, (dulia) but extra honor to Mary because she deserves it (hyperdulia) and worship is given only to God (latria).

Blanketing hyperdulia with latria is done out of biblical illiteracy, ignorance, and prejudice. Jumping on the Mary-bandwagon is done because you can't adequately defend your man made traditions of sola scriptura and sole fide. So you attack Marian teaching because your man made system forbids you from understanding the most basic BIBLICAL concepts. It's a bondage.
"Mary worship" is false and insulting.

Moses foreshadows Christ, but you refuse to believe the Ark of the Old Covenant foreshadows Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, denying copious scriptures. You have no biblical consistency.

Your system has you locked out of the truth of Catholic teaching about Mary so you have to make idiotic lies about it and be offensive. You need an education.

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Mary: The Blessed Virgin (Index Page for Dave Armstrong)