I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by Billyd
For all the Roman Catholics here. Please explain why it is so important for Mary to be a perpetual Virgin, and what benefit do you gain from addressing your prayers to her. Keep it brief.
Because she isn't some slut that sleeps around on her Husband.
So any woman who is not a perpetual virgin is a slut who sleeps around on her husband?. Guess that might be true of Roman Catholics.

Do you know what that statement shows you to be? A swine.

Do you pray to all women who don't sleep around?
 
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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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A dutiful wife has sexual relations with her husband, as does a dutiful husband have with his wife. Not being a virgin for the rest of her life has nothing to do with her having sexual relations with anyone other than her husband. Are all Catholics so dishonest?
I really would like an honest answer to this question.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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For all the anti-Catholics here. Please explain why you can't talk about anything else, since Catholics are never the first to bring up Mariology.
I asked a simple question, from a simple person. First I am not an anti-Catholic. The subject (Mariology) seems to be the most contentious subject on these threads. The arguments that I have read don't answer my simple question.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I asked a simple question, from a simple person. First I am not an anti-Catholic. The subject (Mariology) seems to be the most contentious subject on these threads. The arguments that I have read don't answer my simple question.
Anyone who questions them, and/or calls them out on their heresies and blatant lies, and/or points out the Truths of Scripture in contrast to what the RCC teaches, believes, and promotes, is anti-Catholic in their books.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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Because she isn't some slut that sleeps around on her Husband.
I can understand your anger, but I don't know a single non-Catholic (or even non-Christian) who would make this statement in answer to my question?
 
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LonelyPilgrim

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I fULLY understand YOU are not the enemy. Why would I spend time trying to plead Grace alone to you if I thought of you as my enemy?
Thanks for that. I do sincerely appreciate it. You are not my enemy, either.

How can you twist the elders in heaven lifting up the bowls of the prayers that the Saints prayed TO GOD to people praying to humans that have died? Are you saying we should pray to the elders? Since you CANNOT show me an example or doctrine in Scripture that we should pray to dead humans, saints or otherwise, why do you do it?
I don't think I'm "twisting" anything. These Scriptures do clearly show the citizens of heaven interceding for us. How do you interpret them?

You seem, like many Protestants, to make much of the fact of "praying to" the saints, as if it were somehow the same as praying to God. But as a fallen-away Catholic, I am sure you understand that the content of "prayers to" the saints is nothing more than a request for intercession: pray for us. The fact that we even speak of "praying to" the saints at all is an accident of language: "pray," in its most literal sense, means to ask, request, beseech. There is nothing the saints can do for us but pray for us. They are not gods or divine or even any different than us, apart from their being with the Lord.

And are they "dead"? Is God not "the god of the living and not the dead" (Mark 12:27, etc.)? Are the "firstborn who are enrolled in heaven" "dead," or are "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23)? If we believe in the Resurrection at all, then these people are not "dead," but more alive than they ever have been. And why would they, who are united with the same Christ as we, be separated from us? And why would they, who were faithful to intercede in their lives on earth, cease to do so in the next?

I have never understood the Protestant opposition to the communion of saints. Even as a Protestant, I celebrated my loved ones who went on to their reward, and delighted in their care for me after going to the Lord. Your vehement rejection, to me, comes across as a rejection of faith in eternal life.

Show me where ANY SAINT has EVER prayed to ANYONE but GOD.

"Let [the sick widow] then make use of others to pray for her to the physician. For the sick, unless the physician be called to them by the prayers of others, cannot pray for themselves. The flesh is weak, the soul is sick and hindered by the chains of sins, and cannot direct its feeble steps to the throne of that physician. The angels must be entreated for us, who have been to us as guards; the martyrs must be entreated, whose patronage we seem to claim for ourselves by the pledge as it were of their bodily remains [relics]. They can entreat for our sins, who, if they had any sins, washed them in their own blood; for they are the martyrs of God, our leaders, the beholders of our life and of our actions. Let us not be ashamed to take them as intercessors for our weakness, for they themselves knew the weaknesses of the body, even when they overcame." (Ambrose of Milan [fourth century A.D.], On Widows 9.55)

The grace and peace of the Lord be with you.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I can understand your anger, but I don't know a single non-Catholic (or even non-Christian) who would make this statement in answer to my question?
Maybe they are just deceived and parrot the lies that have been told to them all their life? I wonder, is this something that the pope says? That if Mary was not a perpetual virgin, she was a slut sleeping around behind Joseph's back? Is this why they are so offended by the protestant belief that, as Scripture plainly states, Jesus had brothers and sisters? They think we are calling their beloved Mary a slut? That His brothers and sisters, as identified in Scripture, were the result of adultery on Mary's part? I never knew that before! That is such a gross misunderstanding on the part of the Catholic, it is no small wonder that Catholics are so confused.
 
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LonelyPilgrim

Guest
If the people had the resources, and the ability to analyze them, I believe that there would have been many challenges to your conclusion. It has only been a century and a half or so that the average family had a Bible that the could understand, and a half century or so that they have had one translated into their current language.
This doesn't explain why Luther or Calvin -- who had both the access to Scripture and the literacy to study it -- both fully affirmed it in faith; or why all the sixteen centuries of Christians that preceded them -- and there have always been Christians who could read Scripture, though not the common people -- did not reject it. Scripture, in fact, doesn't state the matter explicitly one way or the other. You presume from a starting point that it is false. Why? Your assumptions are not the assumptions of Christians of prior generations, who placed value in what the earliest Christians handed down to them.

What benefit do you gain by praying to her rather than directly to God? I believe that when Jesus was teaching us to pray he began with "Our father who is in heaven". That alone taught me all of my life that I am to address my prayers directly to him.
I don't pray to Mary "rather than" directly to God. The intercession of the saints is a blessed help in addition to the faith to pray to God directly. Does your ability to pray directly to God eliminate the need, for you, to ask others to pray for you? Scripture itself teaches us the value of intercessory prayer (James 5:16, 2 Corinthians 1:11, Philippians 1:19, 1 Timothy 2:1, etc.). Do you dismiss this?
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that it was written c 120 AD. All we know is that it was written before the time of Origen. You Roman Catholics do love adjusting the facts.

But at least you admit that the church refused it as being Scripture. The truth is that it was simply a late second century invention. There is nothing HISTORICAL about it at all. It did not claim to be history. It arose when people began to fantasise. At least you have the consolation that it formed the basis of Muhammed's views in the Quran.

It is NOT an historical document. It is a fantasy. It laid no claim to be true history but was based on a misuse of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

Do you call anything written in the second century 'a historical document'? Do you support the Gnostic writings of which this was probably one. They have just as much right to be called 'historical documents'. What they were were travesties of the truth.

I call it heretical because it contradicts Scripture and is simply a late second century fantasy.

LOL why are scholars who support your false arguments always 'world renowned'? Everyone knows what its aim was. BUT ON WHAT GROUNDS DID IT MAKE ITS CLAIM? NONE. It presented a wholly distorted picture which was contrary to the New Testament as anyone who reads it will soon see. The Mary it describes has no possible similarity with the Mary of the Scriptures.

LOL such big words!!!! You are simply making yourself deservedly look a fool. If it is a Christological error to accept the Scripture then I plead guilty. I prefer the Scriptures to fairy stories.

The church I belong to was founded 1985 years ago. But you silly little man that scholar merely said what the aim of the writer was. He did not condone it. Nor did he agree with it.


Joseph had no children before he met Mary. That is another invention of the Roman Catholic church. Jesus was accepted as his firstborn. Indeed had He not been so He would not have been the heir to the throne of David. That position would have been held by his supposed elder half-brother. So you are dethroning the Messiah LOL

LOL who but a fool would cite the writings of someone who was condemned as a heretic by his own church? Besides Origen lived 200 years after the time of Christ. How would he know what was true or not? And he admits above that all he had to go on was surmise. You really are going to the bottom of the barrel LOL

More heresy LOL. Why do you think they didn't make him a saint. Have you any idea what Origen believed about the godhead? He was a confirmed Gnostic. And that is without going into the question of whether Origen did really write that. Was it one more of the many forgeries of which your church was guilty?

LOL another passage from your confirmed heretic. Your church CONDEMNED Origen's teaching. Did you realise that?​

Patristics? A confirmed heretic? LOL just about sums you up.

Nonsense they came from similar sources, late second century Gnosticism..".

Now which Gospel is that in? LOL The gospel of St Epostle? You are just a bad joke.

There is no hint that these women were virgins, and in view of Jewish beliefs of the importance of procreation it was very unlikely. Again you are just making up your own scriptures.,

But Anna was a WIDOW. Do you know what a widow is? She is certainly not virginal. LOL LOL

But there is nowhere any hint that this was true of Mary.. Indeed quite the opposite. Why was she then living in Nazareth? How was she able to gad about the country visiting Elizabeth? You clearly have NO idea what the Gospels really say.

Ideas unknown anywhere outside your fictitious writing. Can't you see how foolish you are being?

yes the Protoevangelium would say that. It was trying to get rid of the fact that Joseph and Mary had other children. A sensible reading of the New Testament shows that Mary's children were younger than Jesus which was why Mary took the lead when they sought to prevent Jesus fulfilling His ministry.

It explains nothing of the kind. That was thirty years later and most people died around fifty.. Death was a common feature of those days. And besides, an older bachelor marrying a younger woman was certainly not uncommon. If Joseph was 25 he may well have died before Jesus was crucified.

LOL you have swallowed it whole, haven't you.? Try reading the New Testament which is REAL history and knows nothing of such nonsense.

The New Testament says nothing about him having to answer to the Temple authorities. It is all in your fevered imagination.

Which Gospel is that in? LOL Oh yes the Gospel of St Epostle LOL

I don't keep trash in my mind. But I can see that the Roman Catholic church would prefer myths to Scriptural truth. Funny how many centuries it took them to catch up with the Evangelium LOL

Mary had made no vow not to have children. It was quite normal for her to have children. You believe your gnostic writings, I will stick to the New Testament.

You mean that that is the wangle they tried to use? Jesus had brothers and sisters. That is the quite normal use of the word. There is not the slightest evidence that they were any other than brothers and sisters (given Jesus unusual birth).

That is simply a LIE for which you have no evidence. The idea is unknown in the first 200 years of church history. It only became of concern later when men began to invent myths about Mary.

yes he too was a great heretic.


how kind of them. So the Roman Catholic church allows you to believe which lie you like?

You mean they are too sensible to believe such tommyrot?


They did not 'recognise it as the teaching of the Bible'. It simply took them time to recognise the truth after being brainwashed by the Roman Catholic church. You whole thesis is a farrago of lies and fantasy.

LOL they don't flip flop. They simply FLOPPED!!!!!!

And they weren't Jewish customs. .
You can't see the scriptural evidence in the first paragraph because your vision is obscured by all the fundie hate propaganda. You can look right at it and not see it. Anti-Catholic material will rot your mind. People who feed on that garbage cannot be reasoned with. They have been spiritually poisoned.
They were Roman Catholic inventions.
Then we are guilty of inventing the Bible.

All sizzle and no steak. No rigorous arguments, just empty rhetoric. Let me know when you ready to discuss like an adult.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Does your ability to pray directly to God eliminate the need, for you, to ask others to pray for you? Scripture itself teaches us the value of intercessory prayer (James 5:16, 2 Corinthians 1:11, Philippians 1:19, 1 Timothy 2:1, etc.). Do you dismiss this?
Why do people like you always so dishonestly associate praying for others with praying to dead people for intercession? Scripture exhorts us to pray for others, but nowhere tells us to ask dead people for intercession. There is but one intercessor. Need I quote Scripture to you? Really?
 
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LonelyPilgrim

Guest
I asked a simple question, from a simple person. First I am not an anti-Catholic. The subject (Mariology) seems to be the most contentious subject on these threads. The arguments that I have read don't answer my simple question.
I for one appreciate your irenic tone and willingness to ask and not condemn.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Ms. Magenta, I was raised as a Protestant by devout and loving parents and spent more than 30 years of my life as a faithful Protestant. I have been an ardent student of Scripture since the time I was old enough to read. I was not brought up in the Catholic Church or taught "heresies" or any other such. So your charges and prejudices here are empty: The Word of God in Scripture is of the utmost importance to me; in fact, my study and my devotion to Scripture are exactly why I became Catholic: because the Catholic Church alone embraces the fullness of the truth of Scripture. I will defend the truth of any Catholic doctrine from the Scriptures themselves. You are very keen to condemn others and make accusations, but in doing so you belie the very mercy and love you proclaim in your tagline. May the grace and peace of the Lord be with you!
If you are not a Catholic then my post to somebody else did not refer to you, did it?

So why are you accusing me here?
 
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LonelyPilgrim

Guest
Why do people like you always so dishonestly associate praying for others with praying to dead people for intercession? Scripture exhorts us to pray for others, but nowhere tells us to ask dead people for intercession. There is but one intercessor. Need I quote Scripture to you? Really?
Why do you so quickly accuse others of wanton dishonestly? What sense does it make for any of us to come here and speak anything other than what we sincerely believe to be the truth? Why would you presume that any of us come here to "lie" to others? Do you really think so little of the people who come to this site?

To ask you the same question I asked above: Do you not believe that these people have received eternal life?
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Who do you so quickly accuse others of wanton dishonestly? What sense does it make for any of us to come here and speak anything other than what we sincerely believe to be the truth? Why would you presume that any of us come here to "lie" to others? Do you really think so little of the people who come to this site?

To ask you the same question I asked above: Do you not believe that these people have received eternal life?
I have encountered much wanton dishonesty from Catholics, and they have lied to me and about me, so I can respond to that despite your complaints against it.

That was not the question I addressed, and you should know it.


I don't pray to Mary "rather than" directly to God. The intercession of the saints is a blessed help in addition to the faith to pray to God directly. Does your ability to pray directly to God eliminate the need, for you, to ask others to pray for you? Scripture itself teaches us the value of intercessory prayer (James 5:16, 2 Corinthians 1:11, Philippians 1:19, 1 Timothy 2:1, etc.). Do you dismiss this?
There. Can you see it now?
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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The question you repeated was not even part of your post that I quoted.

Why are you so quick to accuse me? Hmmmm???
You started your comments to me with judgement against me.
 
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1faith

Guest
Though I am not catholic Magenta, I presume in studying church history to understand any such faith you first would need to authorize their established readings. such as the book of Mormon, ect. Before the printed bible it was just too late- mans reasoning for 1400 years instituted many commands of which is why after the printed bible this hierarchy broke after people realized what they were being told was contrary to the printed word. all man sin - immersion by water after confession, among the least.
33,000 Christian denominations. Paul in 1 corin was ordering the church NOT to devide.
Epes 4:5 One LORD - ONE FAITH
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Meanwhile you conveniently totally ignore the question. Doing as Scripture explicitly says cannot be equated with doing what Scripture does not say. Asking dead people to intercede on your behalf goes explicitly against what Scripture says, but you wish to pretend otherwise. Catholics make all manner of things up and you want to defend their right to do so, and then kvetch at those who call them on their heresies. You are as deceived as they are.
 
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LonelyPilgrim

Guest
I have encountered much wanton dishonesty from Catholics, and they have lied to me and about me, so I can respond to that despite your complaints against it.
"Do unto others because somebody else did it to me"? I have not lied to you or about you, nor do I wish to do so. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop accusing me of "lying" at every turn. I am here to speak the truth as I understand it. Just because you believe something different doesn't mean that I'm "lying" about what it is I believe.

Why are you so quick to accuse me? Hmmmm???
You started your comments to me with judgement against me.
I have not "judged" you or "accused" you of anything that you have not done. In every single reply to me, from the very first, you've called me a liar:

"It is no mere misunderstanding, and you trying to characterize it as such seems deceptive. Not only that, you have clearly misrepresented what he actually said, so you in fact are lying also."

"But you clearly lied by blatantly misrepresenting what the other person said in your haste to defend them and condemn others, even not knowing how often he has called others liars either directly or indirectly."

"Why do people like you always so dishonestly associate praying for others with praying to dead people for intercession?"
I don't think anything I've said or done has warranted that. "Lying," dishonesty, is intentionally telling falsehoods with the intention to deceive. Why would I want to do that? Why would I tell anybody that I believe something different than what I believe?

You proclaim yourself a Christian, and I want to treat you as a sister in the Lord, with all the love and respect that entails. You have reacted with hostility and abused me from my very first post here. If you think I'm wrong or have made a mistake, then very well; that's entirely possible. But you have presumed from the very get-go that I have false or deceitful intentions and charged me with such.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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"Do unto others because somebody else did it to me"? I have not lied to you or about you, nor do I wish to do so. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop accusing me of "lying" at every turn. I am here to speak the truth as I understand it. Just because you believe something different doesn't mean that I'm "lying" about what it is I believe.
What the heck are you accusing me of now??? I was talking about Catholics lying to me. They have, multiple times.

I have not "judged" you or "accused" you of anything that you have not done.
Yes you have. You just did again now!

In every single reply to me, from the very first, you've called me a liar:
You totally misrepresented what someone said. Was that a mistake? If so you failed to acknowledge such. Was it an accident? I don't think so. You made up things and attributed them to someone else. You were in a hurry to defend someone and just as hasty to judge against me. What do you call that? Is there some PC term for it now? Every single post? Wow. What a charge.

I don't think anything I've said or done has warranted that. "Lying," dishonesty, is intentionally telling falsehoods with the intention to deceive. Why would I want to do that? Why would I tell anybody that I believe something different than what I believe?
LOL. Are you really so deceived you do not understand why people lie? See above. Deny all you want. You deliberately misrepresented what someone said. That is called dishonesty. Some would call it lying. I am sorry you don't like calling a spade a spade.

You proclaim yourself a Christian, and I want to treat you as a sister in the Lord, with all the love and respect that entails. You have reacted with hostility and abused me from my very first post here. If you think I'm wrong or have made a mistake, then very well; that's entirely possible. But you have presumed from the very get-go that I have false or deceitful intentions and charged me with such.
My goodness. You falsely accuse me of all manner of things and then say this? I don't believe you. If you had good intentions you would have taken responsibility for your error right away. Instead you deny it, make excuses for another, and continually judge against me as if I have no case for what I say.
 
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