Idols: Has the bible become an idol?

[shad]

Anyway, I cannot in good conscience subject the Spirit to the scripture, because the scripture came from the Spirit, and the lesser always comes from the Greater. Look to the Lord Jesus, who came from God, and submitted Himself to God, because He came forth from God. If in our minds and hearts, the Spirit is subject to the scripture, then the scripture has become an idol to us.

I hate bringing this subject up, because it is so fraught with beliefs that have endured for many centuries. I do not do this because I want to. If I have offended, I ask forgiveness in His mercy.

The worlds (or ages of time) were framed by the word of God / Heb 11:3. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away / Mt 24:35. The words I speak unto you are spirit and life / John 6:63. Man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God / Mt 4:4. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God / Eph 6:17.

John 13:16 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him'.

John 15:26 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me'.

John 14:26 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you'.

John 6:13-15 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

From these scriptures, we can see the relationship of the Spirit to Christ, to the believer and the words of Christ that we have been given by inspiration of God. There is no debate only an acceptance of truth by grace and through humility.

 

[Mal316]

I spilled my communion on my dress once. Such a pretty dress ruined by grape juice.

oy vey!

Man, and I was sitting here thinking I didn't treat my Bible like an idol... well, more correctly my Torah now, since it's so new and pretty, and I am very careful not to mess it up. I won't even write in it yet, which mom says I need to get over since I'm willing to write in my Bibles.

I should make a resolution to treat others better than I treat my Torah.

Lest we think we can treat the Holy Scriptures without due regard for their holiness, let our regard for the Bible be as our regard for our neighbors, and our regard for our neighbors as our regard for heaven.

 

[VW]

The worlds (or ages of time) were framed by the word of God / Heb 11:3. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away / Mt 24:35. The words I speak unto you are spirit and life / John 6:63. Man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God / Mt 4:4. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God / Eph 6:17.

John 13:16 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him'.

John 15:26 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me'.

John 14:26 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you'.

John 6:13-15 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

From these scriptures, we can see the relationship of the Spirit to Christ, to the believer and the words of Christ that we have been given by inspiration of God. There is no debate only an acceptance of truth by grace and through humility.

I don't see anything different in these scriptures than what I have been writing. Unless you equate the bible to Jesus. Which I most emphatically do not. Jesus is not something I can hold in my hand on a piece of paper, which it was decided by men what should be contained therein. It has even been proposed that the scripture which you quoted above been removed from the bible by theologians.

Jesus is life, to everything which has and will ever have life. If the bible has any life, which it does, it is through Jesus. That Jesus is the living word does not make the written word to be God.

 

[shad]

I don't see anything different in these scriptures than what I have been writing. Unless you equate the bible to Jesus. Which I most emphatically do not. Jesus is not something I can hold in my hand on a piece of paper, which it was decided by men what should be contained therein. It has even been proposed that the scripture which you quoted above been removed from the bible by theologians.

Jesus is life, to everything which has and will ever have life. If the bible has any life, which it does, it is through Jesus. That Jesus is the living word does not make the written word to be God.

Would you furthur explain the highlighted portion of your post that is in blue? What scriptures are you referring to?

 

[VW]

Would you furthur explain the highlighted portion of your post that is in blue? What scriptures are you referring to?

The entire gospel of John. Modern theologian hold this gospel to be too spiritual, which to them equates to esoterical. I find this amazing. It these same men had been present when the cannon was bound, we would have had a much different bible.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

God's word is absolutely consistant with His nature. There is no conflict between the Holy Spirit and the word of God. The problem isn't a matter of trusting the Holy Spirit, but trusting the hearts of men. One man says that the Spirit says to go to the right, another to the left. But the direction of the second man goes against the plain truth of scripture. Which way is the Spirit directing? Perhaps to the right, but definitely not to the left.

 

[VW]

God's word is absolutely consistant with His nature. There is no conflict between the Holy Spirit and the word of God. The problem isn't a matter of trusting the Holy Spirit, but trusting the hearts of men. One man says that the Spirit says to go to the right, another to the left. But the direction of the second man goes against the plain truth of scripture. Which way is the Spirit directing? Perhaps to the right, but definitely not to the left.

I never said that the scripture conflicts with the nature of God. It is from Him. All that I say is that the scripture is not God. That is pretty simple. Does the scripture have power? Absolutely, through our belief. Jesus said that if you believe, this mountain will get up and be thrown into the sea. Giving the scripture power through our belief is no big deal. But does our natural mind have the straight skinny on what the scripture is saying, on what it means? Absolutely not. And so, I write that we should have the leading of the Spirit to understand the scriptures. If one does not want to make this commitment to the Spirit, who am I to say different? But if one says and believes the the scripture has power over the Spirit, that the Spirit must be under the scripture, well, I would worry about that one.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I never said that the scripture conflicts with the nature of God. It is from Him. All that I say is that the scripture is not God. That is pretty simple. Does the scripture have power? Absolutely, through our belief. Jesus said that if you believe, this mountain will get up and be thrown into the sea. Giving the scripture power through our belief is no big deal. But does our natural mind have the straight skinny on what the scripture is saying, on what it means? Absolutely not. And so, I write that we should have the leading of the Spirit to understand the scriptures. If one does not want to make this commitment to the Spirit, who am I to say different? But if one says and believes the the scripture has power over the Spirit, that the Spirit must be under the scripture, well, I would worry about that one.

The scripture is objective. It's truth is not subject to our faith or lack thereof. (This is not to diminish the neccesity of the illumination of the Holy Spirit in fully understanding scripture.) If I do not believe what scripture says, that does not make it any less true. The word of God says that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead on the third day. If I was to receive a revelation that Jesus was just a spirit and that the crucifiction was simply an act put on to teach us truth, I would judge that revelation to be false because it contradicts the word of God. Even if I felt it to be true, it would not be. The objective truth of scripture is the standard that my subjective experience must be measured by. There is no conflict between the Spirit of God and the word of God. It is not a matter of "putting the Holy Spirit under scripture" because He is the author of scripture and it is consistent with His unchanging character.
Bibliolatry, making the Bible a idol, occurs when we treat it like a talisman or like a magical spell. I believe it is possible for this to happen, sometimes out of enthusiasm and at other times out of selfish motives.
We can also make our subjective experiences an idol.

 

[VW]

If a person hears wrong, or is even deceived in what he takes to be from the Spirit, at least he is trying to hear from the Spirit, and the Lord is able to correct that one in love, and to right any wrong which may have been done. The argument that we must test everything received by the Spirit with the scriptures is flawed, because how do I know that I understand the scriptures correctly? I have seen the scriptures misused so many times I cannot count them. More often than I have seen them used correctly. Why? Because knowledge and reasoning do not equate love. If you want a test of your revelation from the Spirit, then this is the one test which is true in Him, love. If it is not in and because of and for love from God, then it is not of the Spirit. And even in this test, you can know the love of God? For His love, He sent His only Son to perish for us. Who would have thought?

The only reason I can see for using the scripture to test the revelation of the Spirit is control. A seeking for order in the church by making things standard. "Let's all believe the same way, just as it is written down in the book, and everything will be great." That has obviously not worked. Our unity is in His love by His Spirit.

 

[VW]

The scripture is objective. It's truth is not subject to our faith or lack thereof. (This is not to diminish the neccesity of the illumination of the Holy Spirit in fully understanding scripture.) If I do not believe what scripture says, that does not make it any less true. The word of God says that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead on the third day. If I was to receive a revelation that Jesus was just a spirit and that the crucifiction was simply an act put on to teach us truth, I would judge that revelation to be false because it contradicts the word of God. Even if I felt it to be true, it would not be. The objective truth of scripture is the standard that my subjective experience must be measured by. There is no conflict between the Spirit of God and the word of God. It is not a matter of "putting the Holy Spirit under scripture" because He is the author of scripture and it is consistent with His unchanging character.
Bibliolatry, making the Bible a idol, occurs when we treat it like a talisman or like a magical spell. I believe it is possible for this to happen, sometimes out of enthusiasm and at other times out of selfish motives.
We can also make our subjective experiences an idol.

I could read a hundred or even a thousand times that Jesus died on the cross and raised on the third day, and believe this with all my heart, and it will not do what the Spirit's revelation of this truth will do.

 

[VW]

The scripture is objective. It's truth is not subject to our faith or lack thereof. (This is not to diminish the neccesity of the illumination of the Holy Spirit in fully understanding scripture.) If I do not believe what scripture says, that does not make it any less true. The word of God says that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead on the third day. If I was to receive a revelation that Jesus was just a spirit and that the crucifiction was simply an act put on to teach us truth, I would judge that revelation to be false because it contradicts the word of God. Even if I felt it to be true, it would not be. The objective truth of scripture is the standard that my subjective experience must be measured by. There is no conflict between the Spirit of God and the word of God. It is not a matter of "putting the Holy Spirit under scripture" because He is the author of scripture and it is consistent with His unchanging character.
Bibliolatry, making the Bible a idol, occurs when we treat it like a talisman or like a magical spell. I believe it is possible for this to happen, sometimes out of enthusiasm and at other times out of selfish motives.
We can also make our subjective experiences an idol.

I don't believe that what the Spirit does in us in subjective. I believe that what the Spirit does in us is eternal, everlasting, living. What God does is forever. If I heard a spirit tell me that Jesus was not come in the flesh, was not God, then I know that this is not the Spirit of God. I do not need the bible to tell me that, for I have the Spirit of God living in me.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

If a person hears wrong, or is even deceived in what he takes to be from the Spirit, at least he is trying to hear from the Spirit, and the Lord is able to correct that one in love, and to right any wrong which may have been done. The argument that we must test everything received by the Spirit with the scriptures is flawed, because how do I know that I understand the scriptures correctly? I have seen the scriptures misused so many times I cannot count them. More often than I have seen them used correctly. Why? Because knowledge and reasoning do not equate love. If you want a test of your revelation from the Spirit, then this is the one test which is true in Him, love. If it is not in and because of and for love from God, then it is not of the Spirit. And even in this test, you can know the love of God? For His love, He sent His only Son to perish for us. Who would have thought?

The only reason I can see for using the scripture to test the revelation of the Spirit is control. A seeking for order in the church by making things standard. "Let's all believe the same way, just as it is written down in the book, and everything will be great." That has obviously not worked. Our unity is in His love by His Spirit.

If you cannot understand scripture by the illumination of the Spirit, you will not be able to judge your revelation by that same Spirit. We need both the objective truth of scripture and the work of the Holy Spirit. Again, if I cannot use a yardstick to measure properly, I certainly cannot maesure properly without the yardstick. Your contention (a proper one) that God sent His Son only exists because of the word of scripture. I do not wish you to be subject to my control, I desire that you be acceptable and pleasing to God. As for unity, there is one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. If we cannot find that in the word of God we will certainly not achieve it based upon our subjective experiences.

 

[shad]

VW,

On a follow up inquiry, if you put so much confidence in the Holy Spirit without being subject to the written word, why don't you take the written word of God that you have on paper, every word of it, and put it on the shelf. If you have the Spirit to lead you and guide you, what purpose do you possibly have for the word of God? Your inspiration would come from the Spirit and according to you that is all you need. You have said that you do not need the written word, in so many words. You could live by the Spirit without the knowledge of God and our Lord Jesus Christ according to you, isn't that right? This is probably how Abraham lived and all those before the law. Or perhaps like Adam and his wife Eve when God came to them in the cool of the day to talk with them and teach them with His words.

Does the Holy Spirit have a real purpose for the written word of God? If so, what would that be? Wouldn't it be better to speak what the Holy Spirit tells you personally, without the written word? Then everyone could say that they have heard from God and this is what He is saying and what He wants. If that happened how would we know what is from God and what might be counterfeit from Satan? Where would our faith come from if the written word is not needed? Can a man know who Christ is, what He did and have the mind of Christ without the written word? If he can, why don't you be the one who proves that? I'm sorry, you can go by the written word because that tells you to prove all things and hold fast to the good. I guess you will have to depend completely on the Spirit for that.

We get light through the entrance of God's word. There is not one verse in 32,000 that are in the Bible that mention that we get any light from the Holy Spirit. The only thing that comes close is when the Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, but we only know that is true from the written word. If you do not have to depend on the written word and the testimony of the scriptures, how are you going to be able to prove that Christ was born of a virgin, manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world and received up into glory? If we do not count on and esteem the written word as the inspired words of truth concerning these things, what written documents are we going to rely upon as a testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ? Is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit going to be the witness and testimony of the gospel that we are to preach to all the world and every creature? There is so much more.

One last thing.

John 5:38-47

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[VW]

If you cannot understand scripture by the illumination of the Spirit, you will not be able to judge your revelation by that same Spirit. We need both the objective truth of scripture and the work of the Holy Spirit. Again, if I cannot use a yardstick to measure properly, I certainly cannot maesure properly without the yardstick. Your contention (a proper one) that God sent His Son only exists because of the word of scripture. I do not wish you to be subject to my control, I desire that you be acceptable and pleasing to God. As for unity, there is one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. If we cannot find that in the word of God we will certainly not achieve it based upon our subjective experiences.

Again, I say that the Spirit and what He does in us is not subjective, that the word subjective does not apply in this case. Why? Because what the Spirit is doing in us is what He is doing in the body. We are one, in Him! You are as much a part of me as you are of Christ. This is a spiritual aspect which the doctrine we are discussing cannot address, because it is flawed by its absolute belief that all spiritual experiences are subjective. And they are if they are not those things done by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus said that He only spoke those things which He heard His Father saying, and only did those things which He saw His Father doing, was this by the scripture, or by the Spirit which had descended on Him like a dove? He heard His Father speaking, and saw His Father doing. I believe that God wants this for us, even more so as the day approaches. And I believe that this doctrine will curtail, if not preclude this happening.

 

[giantone]

If a person hears wrong, or is even deceived in what he takes to be from the Spirit, at least he is trying to hear from the Spirit, and the Lord is able to correct that one in love, and to right any wrong which may have been done. The argument that we must test everything received by the Spirit with the scriptures is flawed, because how do I know that I understand the scriptures correctly? I have seen the scriptures misused so many times I cannot count them. More often than I have seen them used correctly. Why? Because knowledge and reasoning do not equate love. If you want a test of your revelation from the Spirit, then this is the one test which is true in Him, love. If it is not in and because of and for love from God, then it is not of the Spirit. And even in this test, you can know the love of God? For His love, He sent His only Son to perish for us. Who would have thought?

The only reason I can see for using the scripture to test the revelation of the Spirit is control. A seeking for order in the church by making things standard. "Let's all believe the same way, just as it is written down in the book, and everything will be great." That has obviously not worked. Our unity is in His love by His Spirit.

What goes in comes out. if you have a place inside that is empty something will fill it even if it is not by your will, what I mean is if your focus is on the world the world will get in. If your focus is on the Word of God that will get in. And if you only seek the Holy Spirit you may get the Holy Spirit but some of you will seep in for sure and we are not Good, only God is. We all have preconceptions about tons of things we live in different cultures the media is corrupt good is evil, evil is good. If your right about the Holy Spirit above the Bible, logically you or someone else should write a corrected version.

The thing about the Holy Spirit, we are not always in a position to listen to Him maybe you are and if thats the case you have to do the right thing.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I don't believe that what the Spirit does in us in subjective. I believe that what the Spirit does in us is eternal, everlasting, living. What God does is forever. If I heard a spirit tell me that Jesus was not come in the flesh, was not God, then I know that this is not the Spirit of God. I do not need the bible to tell me that, for I have the Spirit of God living in me.

It is not the Spirit of God that is the problem, but the heart of man. If man was capable of setting aside his flesh so completely that he could always precisely hear, understand, and obey, there would be no need for scripture. But that is not true. You do need the Bible and when you judge that revelation to be false, you are doing so not based upon a feeling, but on an absolute surety based upon the Bible. "For the word (logos) of God is living and active and sharper that any two-edged sword and piercing as far as the division of life (psyche) and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And ther is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him whith whom we have to do." Hebrews 4:12-13.

 

[VW]

It is not the Spirit of God that is the problem, but the heart of man. If man was capable of setting aside his flesh so completely that he could always precisely hear, understand, and obey, there would be no need for scripture. But that is not true. You do need the Bible and when you judge that revelation to be false, you are doing so not based upon a feeling, but on an absolute surety based upon the Bible. "For the word (logos) of God is living and active and sharper that any two-edged sword and piercing as far as the division of life (psyche) and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And ther is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him whith whom we have to do." Hebrews 4:12-13.

The heart of man is what the Spirit, God Himself, came to live in. He is in you, just as He is in me. God. And it is God, living in us as the Spirit, who is able to divide flesh and Spirit, not my mind reading His word. I would trust my heart much much more than I would trust my mind. My mind is subject to delusions, my heart is the dwelling place of God.

Hey, I don't see this going anywhere, so I will say to you, God bless.

 

[VW]

What goes in comes out. if you have a place inside that is empty something will fill it even if it is not by your will, what I mean is if your focus is on the world the world will get in. If your focus is on the Word of God that will get in. And if you only seek the Holy Spirit you may get the Holy Spirit but some of you will seep in for sure and we are not Good, only God is. We all have preconceptions about tons of things we live in different cultures the media is corrupt good is evil, evil is good. If your right about the Holy Spirit above the Bible, logically you or someone else should write a corrected version.

The thing about the Holy Spirit, we are not always in a position to listen to Him maybe you are and if thats the case you have to do the right thing.

I never said to throw out the scriptures. I read the scriptures often, refer to them often, love them for the great gift that they are. It is how we see the scriptures that concerns the spirit in me.
I wonder how we could not be in a position to listen to Him. That makes no sense to me, for how can one who has been given the Spirit be separated from Him?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Again, I say that the Spirit and what He does in us is not subjective, that the word subjective does not apply in this case. Why? Because what the Spirit is doing in us is what He is doing in the body. We are one, in Him! You are as much a part of me as you are of Christ. This is a spiritual aspect which the doctrine we are discussing cannot address, because it is flawed by its absolute belief that all spiritual experiences are subjective. And they are if they are not those things done by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus said that He only spoke those things which He heard His Father saying, and only did those things which He saw His Father doing, was this by the scripture, or by the Spirit which had descended on Him like a dove? He heard His Father speaking, and saw His Father doing. I believe that God wants this for us, even more so as the day approaches. And I believe that this doctrine will curtail, if not preclude this happening.

Subjective experience is not bad, it is merely individual. Without subjective experience all knowledge would be abstract, that is why Jesus spoke in parables. The issue is that we are creatures of mixed nature, carrying about the old man in us. There must be a measure that I can use to evaluate myself, something outside me. The word of God is such a measure.
Jesus is the author of the word of God and those who recorded and transcribed his life and saying were working under the inspiration of scripture, an act of the Holy Spirit that goes beyond either illumination or revelation.
A submission to scripture will result not in the curtailing of the power of the Holy Spirit, but an increase. There has never been a movement to truly study and meditate on the word of God that has not resulted in a fresh move of the Holy Spirit. And movements to experience God apart from the measure of the word of God have largely resulted in spiritual dead ends or heresy.

 

[VW]

Subjective experience is not bad, it is merely individual. Without subjective experience all knowledge would be abstract, that is why Jesus spoke in parables. The issue is that we are creatures of mixed nature, carrying about the old man in us. There must be a measure that I can use to evaluate myself, something outside me. The word of God is such a measure.
Jesus is the author of the word of God and those who recorded and transcribed his life and saying were working under the inspiration of scripture, an act of the Holy Spirit that goes beyond either illumination or revelation.
A submission to scripture will result not in the curtailing of the power of the Holy Spirit, but an increase. There has never been a movement to truly study and meditate on the word of God that has not resulted in a fresh move of the Holy Spirit. And movements to experience God apart from the measure of the word of God have largely resulted in spiritual dead ends or heresy.

Like I said, this is not going anywhere. I have not said to throw away the scripture. And I disagree with you that the writers of the gospels were inspired by scripture.

We don't seem to be able to see eye to eye on this.