Idols: Has the bible become an idol?

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superdave5221

superdave5221

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#101
Jul 28, 2009
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#101
VW said:
Yep, that is what they believe, but they are not even aware that this is their belief. It is a very subtle deception. The best lie is the truth, meaning something it was never intended to mean.

The bible is such a wonderful and great gift from God, and it is from God. But the bible does not teach us. I am uncomfortable with the song which says that Jesus loves us, this I know, for the bible tells me so. Yes, the in the bible it is written that Jesus loves us, but until the Spirit came and filled me with His love, I just thought that I knew that He loves me. Now I know that He loves me, by His Spirit. Is the song wrong? No! Is it the whole truth? Again, no. Can I understand the fact that Jesus loves me without the Holy Spirit? Again, no, not in the complete understanding that comes by the Spirit. And does this revelation from the Spirit contradict the scripture which says that Jesus loves me? Heaven forbid. It is actually the proof of the written word.
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I have to respectfully disagree. Many Mormons believe in their religion because they believe in "the spirit" as well. Unfortunately, the "warm feeling" that they have when they read the book of Mormon, is not from the Holy Spirit. That is why they have rejected the real Word of God, and relegated it to secondary status in their church.

I will leave you with the following from the "real" Lord's prayer.

Jesus is praying on the way to Gethsemene. At this point in His prayer, he has been praying for the apostles.

John 17: 20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Verse 20: That's you and me brother. We believe because of the gospel message preached by the apostles. Not because of a feeling. And that message is found in the Bible, and nowhere else.
 
B

butterflymom3

Guest
#102
#102
VW said:
No, I do not say to stop using the bible. I have one open before me now, at this very minute, and every time I sit down to write in this group.

You see, I do not believe that the Spirit will ever lead us to a place that is not scriptural, ever. I do not believe in checking revelation from God against the scripture, because I might not understand the scripture as well as God does. Ha, Ha!! I will never understand that scripture as He does, so how can I check what He tells me against it?

I believe that we have taken a dangerous road, one in which we have placed limits upon God, telling Him in essence, "Okay, you gave us the bible, and maybe it is to be used by Your Spirit to teach us, but we are only going to believe what we can see out of your bible, and if You try to teach us something that is different from what we understand from the bible, then we are going to disregard it and consider it deception." If we did this to our God, our Savior, then the bible has become an idol.
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I know for myself the more I read Gods word, the better understanding I have. I read one scripture one day and it means nothing to me, but when I read it over again another day I then come to understand it. The bible is a manual that was gifted to us for reference from the inspired word of God. The only way it becomes an idol is when we treat it like God himself. I know Christians who would never think to write in their bible, and kiss it when they are done reading it. They put the book itself on a pedastool. I agree, with the fact that it can be subject to each individuals understanding, and what they want to read into it. However that is why daily reading is so important because with every new day our minds allow us to comprehend these scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit. Before I read my bible I make sure to say a prayer to God that I will understand His words. Something like : "Dear Lord please open my heart and my mind to your words, and help me to understand these scriptures. Fill me with the Holy Spirit, Lord and allow him to work within me. In Jesus precious name, Amen." When I do this I often find new meaning in His words. God bless you all, and I have enjoyed reading this discussion. We learn from asking questions, and we also bring attention to important subjects.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#103
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#103
superdave5221 said:
I have to respectfully disagree. Many Mormons believe in their religion because they believe in "the spirit" as well. Unfortunately, the "warm feeling" that they have when they read the book of Mormon, is not from the Holy Spirit. That is why they have rejected the real Word of God, and relegated it to secondary status in their church.

I will leave you with the following from the "real" Lord's prayer.

Jesus is praying on the way to Gethsemene. At this point in His prayer, he has been praying for the apostles.

John 17: 20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Verse 20: That's you and me brother. We believe because of the gospel message preached by the apostles. Not because of a feeling. And that message is found in the Bible, and nowhere else.
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You have the witness in you, that unction, that anointing from the Holy One. I read the bible and knew the bible and went to church and did everything that the bible said and believed all that the bible said, and when the Spirit showed me the truth of my life, I knew that I was ****ed. I believe because Jesus revealed Himself to me. It is the same Jesus that the bible speaks of? You bet!!! How do I know that He loves me? By His Spirit in me.

Just before the passage that you quoted, Jesus was speaking and teaching and giving comfort to the disciples, because He was going back to the Father. "It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me' and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; and concerning judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged. I have namy more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He,the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you."

And this is the exact reason why we need the Spirit to teach us, because otherwise everyone will have their own interpretation. If I was to believe what you say, then our unity would come from the scriptures. This has not proved out to be the case. In fact, the only time in the church's history when she was in absolute unity was right after the filling with the Spirit on the day of pentecost. And from that time, it, the church, has become more fractured and disjointed to the point that most of the world is not convicted of any of the things above, and even some of the church. When the Lord returns, will He find faith on the earth? Not if we deny the Spirit His rightful place as our Lord. Yes, that is right, the Spirit is God. Lord, forgive us for how we have treated you with such unbelief.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#104
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#104
VW said:
You have the witness in you, that unction, that anointing from the Holy One. I read the bible and knew the bible and went to church and did everything that the bible said and believed all that the bible said, and when the Spirit showed me the truth of my life, I knew that I was ****ed. I believe because Jesus revealed Himself to me. It is the same Jesus that the bible speaks of? You bet!!! How do I know that He loves me? By His Spirit in me.

Just before the passage that you quoted, Jesus was speaking and teaching and giving comfort to the disciples, because He was going back to the Father. "It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me' and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; and concerning judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged. I have namy more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He,the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you."

And this is the exact reason why we need the Spirit to teach us, because otherwise everyone will have their own interpretation. If I was to believe what you say, then our unity would come from the scriptures. This has not proved out to be the case. In fact, the only time in the church's history when she was in absolute unity was right after the filling with the Spirit on the day of pentecost. And from that time, it, the church, has become more fractured and disjointed to the point that most of the world is not convicted of any of the things above, and even some of the church. When the Lord returns, will He find faith on the earth? Not if we deny the Spirit His rightful place as our Lord. Yes, that is right, the Spirit is God. Lord, forgive us for how we have treated you with such unbelief.
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You are right. The reason for the disunity is that people have rejected the true meanings of the Word of God. They are not right with the Lord, and with His Spirit within them, and therefore He has chosen to not reveal the whole Truth to them. But I must reject your claim to prophecy. You are claiming that Holy Spirit is revealing Truth to you that cannot be obtained from the Word of God. That is a dangerous claim! I do not believe you.
 
C

ChristsArmorBearer

Guest
#105
#105
superdave5221 said:
My point exactly!! That is how you validate that it IS the Holy Spirit!!

I agree. There are many compromises in the church. If you read Acts, the apostles used a pattern (gr. tupos) in setting up the early congregations. It is not hard to follow that pattern. Most churches today have chosen to ignore that pattern. But where do you get the pattern from, you guessed it, the Bible.
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Very true Dave!
 
C

ChristsArmorBearer

Guest
#106
#106
superdave5221 said:
I have to respectfully disagree. Many Mormons believe in their religion because they believe in "the spirit" as well. Unfortunately, the "warm feeling" that they have when they read the book of Mormon, is not from the Holy Spirit. That is why they have rejected the real Word of God, and relegated it to secondary status in their church.

I will leave you with the following from the "real" Lord's prayer.

Jesus is praying on the way to Gethsemene. At this point in His prayer, he has been praying for the apostles.

John 17: 20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Verse 20: That's you and me brother. We believe because of the gospel message preached by the apostles. Not because of a feeling. And that message is found in the Bible, and nowhere else.
Click to expand...
The problem is that many (mormons & jw's) believe the Holy Spirit is nothing more than an "it", some sort of force and nothing more. They don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a personality all of His own with a will (the mind of Christ) separate from ours who dwells inside of us.
 
C

ChristsArmorBearer

Guest
#107
#107
VW said:
You have the witness in you, that unction, that anointing from the Holy One. I read the bible and knew the bible and went to church and did everything that the bible said and believed all that the bible said, and when the Spirit showed me the truth of my life, I knew that I was ****ed. I believe because Jesus revealed Himself to me. It is the same Jesus that the bible speaks of? You bet!!! How do I know that He loves me? By His Spirit in me.

Just before the passage that you quoted, Jesus was speaking and teaching and giving comfort to the disciples, because He was going back to the Father. "It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me' and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; and concerning judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged. I have namy more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He,the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you."

And this is the exact reason why we need the Spirit to teach us, because otherwise everyone will have their own interpretation. If I was to believe what you say, then our unity would come from the scriptures. This has not proved out to be the case. In fact, the only time in the church's history when she was in absolute unity was right after the filling with the Spirit on the day of pentecost. And from that time, it, the church, has become more fractured and disjointed to the point that most of the world is not convicted of any of the things above, and even some of the church. When the Lord returns, will He find faith on the earth? Not if we deny the Spirit His rightful place as our Lord. Yes, that is right, the Spirit is God. Lord, forgive us for how we have treated you with such unbelief.
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I believe what VW is trying to say was that he was "religious" but had not yet received divine revelation (conviction is this case) that he was just as lost as the average sinner on the street. It took the conviction of the Holy Spirit to open his eyes to that reality.

Sometimes I can't help but as though the church is full of people like this. They're familiar with scripture, have a good grasp of their preferred doctrine yet many have yet to experience the life changing power of the Holy Spirit due their own religious pride in what they were taught. They believe they are saved in their minds but the gospel is not written in their hearts which why so many believe they can freely sin yet still be saved. They don't feel conviction because the Holy Spirit is not in them.
 
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superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#108
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#108
ChristsArmorBearer said:
The problem is that many (mormons & jw's) believe the Holy Spirit is nothing more than an "it", some sort of force and nothing more. They don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a personality all of His own with a will (the mind of Christ) separate from ours who dwells inside of us.
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You are right! Holy Spirit is the most neglected member of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is a person. He has a mind, knowledge, affection, and a will. He can be grieved, resisted, blasphemed, and quenched. He speaks, bears testimony, reveals the truth, restrains, and has influence. He reveals truth and imparts spiritual and miraculous gifts as He so chooses.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#109
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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#109
superdave5221 said:
You are right. The reason for the disunity is that people have rejected the true meanings of the Word of God. They are not right with the Lord, and with His Spirit within them, and therefore He has chosen to not reveal the whole Truth to them. But I must reject your claim to prophecy. You are claiming that Holy Spirit is revealing Truth to you that cannot be obtained from the Word of God. That is a dangerous claim! I do not believe you.
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I am saying that the Holy Spirit is revealing truth which cannot be obtained without Him, from the bible. I am tempted to quote Jesus................but I won't.

Yeah, I will. Why can you not hear what I am saying?
 
VW

VW

Banned
#110
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#110
ChristsArmorBearer said:
I believe what VW is trying to say was that he was "religious" but had not yet received divine revelation (conviction is this case) that he was just as lost as the average sinner on the street. It took the conviction of the Holy Spirit to open his eyes to that reality.

Sometimes I can't help but as though the church is full of people like this. They're familiar with scripture, have a good grasp of their preferred doctrine yet many have yet to experience the life changing power of the Holy Spirit due their own religious pride in what they were taught. They believe they are saved in their minds but the gospel is not written in their hearts which why so many believe they can freely sin yet still be saved. They don't feel conviction because the Holy Spirit is not in them.
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And this leaves them in the place of believing that they are saved, and not hearing anything different from the conviction of the Spirit. As quoted above, the Spirit will convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. It scares me that this has happened, and they claim it is in His name.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#111
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#111
ChristsArmorBearer said:
I believe what VW is trying to say was that he was "religious" but had not yet received divine revelation (conviction is this case) that he was just as lost as the average sinner on the street. It took the conviction of the Holy Spirit to open his eyes to that reality.

Sometimes I can't help but as though the church is full of people like this. They're familiar with scripture, have a good grasp of their preferred doctrine yet many have yet to experience the life changing power of the Holy Spirit due their own religious pride in what they were taught. They believe they are saved in their minds but the gospel is not written in their hearts which why so many believe they can freely sin yet still be saved. They don't feel conviction because the Holy Spirit is not in them.
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I know exactly where you are coming from, because I was there as well. I had read the Bible with little conviction, and had gone to church with less conviction. One day I decided to not read the Bible, but to "study" it. I began to study it prayerfully, truly wanting to know the meaning of what I was reading. The Holy Spirit guided me to a book that studied the Gospels in chronological order. As I reread the Gospels, (I had read them many times before), it was like the scales falling from my eyes, like Saul's (Paul) in Damascus when Ananias revealed the gospel to him. I was truly converted from reading those gospels, with the help of the Holy Spirit, which I had not had before. That is how I know that we need the Word of God AND the Holy Spirit's guidance to truly find our way, or THE way. We need BOTH, not one or the other. If we did not need both, God would not have provided both. In His wisdom, He provided what we needed to find our way back to Him, through His Son Jesus.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#112
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#112
superdave5221 said:
You are right. The reason for the disunity is that people have rejected the true meanings of the Word of God. They are not right with the Lord, and with His Spirit within them, and therefore He has chosen to not reveal the whole Truth to them. But I must reject your claim to prophecy. You are claiming that Holy Spirit is revealing Truth to you that cannot be obtained from the Word of God. That is a dangerous claim! I do not believe you.
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Let me ask a question. Do you understand the scripture from what you read, without the leading of the Spirit? If so, how do you answer the scripture when it says that the natural man cannot understand the things of God? The scripture states that the natural man is in enmity with God, that it cannot even believe God. The Spirit who gave us our new birth, He will lead us into all truth. Turn this around and we see that if the Spirit did not lead us into the truth we have, then it is not truth at all.

Put another way, the scriptures are spiritual, being the word of God, who is spirit. And it is for this reason that God sent His Spirit to us, so that we could see the things which are of Him, spiritual, which we could nto see with our natural minds. The Spirit validates the scriptures! The spirit makes the scriptures come alive to us and in us. I say that the scriptures without the Holy Spirit is very very dangerous. And disastrous too.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#113
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#113
VW said:
I am saying that the Holy Spirit is revealing truth which cannot be obtained without Him, from the bible. I am tempted to quote Jesus................but I won't.

Yeah, I will. Why can you not hear what I am saying?
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Ok. Now I agree with you wholeheartedly.
 
C

ChristsArmorBearer

Guest
#114
#114
superdave5221 said:
You are right! Holy Spirit is the most neglected member of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is a person. He has a mind, knowledge, affection, and a will. He can be grieved, resisted, blasphemed, and quenched. He speaks, bears testimony, reveals the truth, restrains, and has influence. He reveals truth and imparts spiritual and miraculous gifts as He so chooses.
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Amen to that!
 
C

ChristsArmorBearer

Guest
#115
#115
VW said:
And this leaves them in the place of believing that they are saved, and not hearing anything different from the conviction of the Spirit. As quoted above, the Spirit will convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. It scares me that this has happened, and they claim it is in His name.
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Tell me about it. In the area where I live we have lots of this going on. These folks think in their minds they are saved because of deceptive doctrines but it is obvious by their lifestyles that it is not written in their hearts but because of bad doctrine these people feel absolutely no conviction for their wreckless lifestyles thus they are destined for Hell because of their own pride in the doctrines of man. No matter how hard you try to reach out to them they just won't listen... in turn they do everything they can to make you look bad in front of others because in their minds you are being jugdemental and legalistic thus they say you are the one not saved and will say and do anything to convince others of such because they feel justifed if others agree.

Just like the pharisees and Sadducees in the days of Christ...
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#116
#116
ChristsArmorBearer said:
In many ways I believe many denominations guilty of elevating the bible to a godlike status. It is clear than many denominations either have forgotten or open deny the fact that the Holy Spirit's role is to interact with us, leading us away from sin thus molding us into the image of Christ. - Many denominations have accepted doctrine that clearly reject the conviction power of the Holy Spirit and his ability to interact with us on a daily basis (aka personal revelation) and instead they look to the bible as a replacement for the Holy Spirit (rather than a suppliment with the Holy Spirit) simply because the bible is open to doctrinal interpretation thus they embrace doctrines of compromise that they are comfortable with.

To many the holy trinity looks like this: "Father, Son & Holy Bible"
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you clearly know a lot about denominations; perhaps you could give an example from their own documentation, The Westminster Confession perhaps??:D


btw "There is one Spirit but many administrations"
 
VW

VW

Banned
#117
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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#117
greatkraw said:
you clearly know a lot about denominations; perhaps you could give an example from their own documentation, The Westminster Confession perhaps??:D


btw "There is one Spirit but many administrations"
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Are you asking this question seriously? Really? When ever I think of the mainstream demoninations, and study what they are teaching and believing now, I am appalled.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#118
#118
VW said:
Are you asking this question seriously? Really? When ever I think of the mainstream demoninations, and study what they are teaching and believing now, I am appalled.
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this dude keep making broad generalisations about denominations

I do not believe he knows much at all about what they stand for

let's see some documentation
 
VW

VW

Banned
#119
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#119
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greatkraw

Guest
#120
#120
VW said:
I did not look very hard and found this.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-Liberal-Protestants-Believe.aspx

Cut and paste the above link into your browser.

In His peace,
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I did.

I know there are liberal christians out there

but I have yet to be shown where specific denominations are teaching the specific heresy that guy mentioned

ChristsArmourBearer
Many denominations have accepted doctrine that clearly reject the conviction power of the Holy Spirit and his ability to interact with us on a daily basis
 
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