If all people had to do to be saved is to be a believer, believe all the correct/sound doctrine of Jesus Christ they know to be true

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Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
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#21
John 3:36 says nothing like what you claim. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them." There is nothing in this verse about OBEDIENCE.
Oh but there is:

https://biblehub.com/john/3-36.htm

Most translations say obey. Good try though. Faith equals obedience. No obedience no faith.
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
855
286
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#22
and refuse to believe any doctrine which they know to be false. In this scenario, do you believe the majority of people throughout all human history would have been saved?
God is a fair God, and people were saved before the Old Testament was given.

We must believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior to be saved, but if we do not know about Him we can still be saved.

The people who heard the Gospel sufficiently will not be saved if they reject that truth.

But if a person never heard of the word of God, or Jesus, they can be saved, but they cannot be with Jesus until the millennial reign of Christ is over, and they are resurrected at the resurrection of the dead.

The Bible says that creation testifies that there is a God, and His attributes which one of them is love for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, so the world is without excuse for not believing in a higher power that created all things, and since He created all things, and loves people, then people should love this higher power, and love people, which creation testifies of the 2 greatest laws love God, and love people.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Also our conscious bears witness of good, and bad.

The people that have not heard of the word of God, or Jesus, will be judged according to their belief in a higher power which creation testifies of a higher power.

And their conscious to do what is good by loving people for love is the fulfilling of the law, which is to not offend them, and only want the best for them.

And to ask this higher power for forgiveness if anything is amiss.

It would not be right if people that did not hear of the word of God, or Jesus, to be condemned, and people were saved before the Old Testament was given.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This judgment happens after the millennial reign of Christ so the saints are all with Jesus.

This is the second resurrection of the dead to be judged, and the wording says whosoever is not found written in the book of life will be condemned which means there is people that might be saved because it did not that no one was in the book of life.

But the majority of these people seem like they would not be saved which there is an advantage to hearing the word of God, and about Jesus.

The people who did not believe in a higher power will not be saved which the Bible said the fool has said there is no God.

The people who believed in a higher power but did not love people like they should will not be saved.

The people who have heard the word of God, and about Jesus, but reject it will not be saved.

The people who have heard the word of God, and confessed Jesus as Savior, but were hypocritical holding unto sin will not be saved, which Jesus said the hypocrites will not be with Him and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which not everyone that says Lord, Lord, shall be with Jesus because they were workers of iniquity.

Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

But some people have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
855
286
63
#23
John 3:36 says nothing like what you claim. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them." There is nothing in this verse about OBEDIENCE.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

To believe on the Son means to obey.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
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#24
and refuse to believe any doctrine which they know to be false. In this scenario, do you believe the majority of people throughout all human history would have been saved?
It is not enough to be just be hearers of sound doctrine, but we also need to be doers of it:

James 1:19-27 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
101
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#25
No. Just look at when Jesus was preaching His Gospel. Look at how the "majority" of peoples did not believe. As well, there is what Jesus said:

Matthew, Chapter 7:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Now, if you are trying to "back door" the need for works salvation, you would be wrong. Belief in Jesus IS required for salvation, just as John 3:16 says. No type or amount of "works" can earn anyone eternal salvaiton,
Jesus is the embodiment of God's word (John 1:14), so the way to believe in Jesus is by embodying God's word through following his example. The Son is the exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), so the way that we live testifies about his character. For example, our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, in other words, we are believing in him, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who obey God's commandments.

There is a huge difference between these two statements:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of good works in order to earn it as the result.

2.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of good works.

While there are many verses like Romans 4:1-5 that deny #1, there are nevertheless many verses like Hebrews 5:9 that support #2, so there can be reasons why our salvation requires us to be doers of good works other than in order to earn it as the result.
 
May 1, 2022
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#26
God is a fair God, and people were saved before the Old Testament was given.
Righteous people before Christ's Resurrection didn't have New Testament Salvation yet. They were held in a Temporary place of peace called "Abraham's Bosom."

Luke 16:22-23: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Salvation as we know it couldn't have taken place until after the Resurrection of Christ.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
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Santa Fe NM
#27
Oh but there is:

https://biblehub.com/john/3-36.htm

Most translations say obey. Good try though. Faith equals obedience. No obedience no faith.
Many people look to the King James translation as the most accurate; personally I do not.

Here is John 3:36 from the KJV: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." Notice the lack of "obey" or "obeyeth".

And from my favorite translation, the NET: "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him."

So these two agree. That should satisfy both the KJV-only folks and everyone else.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,578
9,094
113
#28
Oh but there is:

https://biblehub.com/john/3-36.htm

Most translations say obey. Good try though. Faith equals obedience. No obedience no faith.
Pretty sure “obey” in both passages, refers to obeying the Gospel.
Which comes back to believing that Jesus is Lord, died to pay for our sin debt, and rose again.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

New King James Version

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,428
6,706
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#29
OBey should refer for a believer in believing God, this, of course would include the Gospel and the honest understanding of the relationship of obedience to God, the I Am, which includes the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for He is ONE>