If Jesus is God, why did he ask why God had forsaken him?

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,655
325
83
#3
Did Jesus even actually explicitly claim he was God?
The following is what I posted yesterday. In answer to your specific question? "Did Jesus ever explicitly say or use the exact words, "I am God," no. Do you know why? If He had then the obvious conclusion (at least to the Jews and others) is that Jesus would be promoting "polytheism." Btw, Jesus "WAS NOT FORSAKEN on that cross by His Father.

We all know that when one ask the question, "Who is Jesus Christ" the inevitable answer will be, "He is the Son of God." Okay, but what does that really mean? Does it mean Jesus is the Son of God just like Christians are called and identified as the sons of God? No, Christians are "adopted" sons of God, we are not "THE" Son of God in an exclusive sense as pointed out at John 3:16.

The Jews have what is known as "idioms" just like all nationalities have idioms. One of the idioms they have is "the son of" idiom. For example in the Old Testament you will read various phrases like, "Sons of prophets," refer to men belogning to a prophetic band. (1 Kings 20:35). Sons of the goldsmiths refers to a goldsmith (Nehemiah 3:31). How about "Sons of affliction are afflicted ones. (Proverbs 31:8). Sons of valor, is simply a brave man. (1 Samuel 14:52.) There are literally thousands of these idioms throughout the Bible.

The idiom also demonstrates one posse3ssing a certain nature. The idiom, "son of man" clealy exhibits the use of the word "son" to show the possession of a certain nature. This is brought out at Numbers 23:19. "God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." The "son of man" idiom is used throughout the Bible. Ezekiel 2:1, 3:3,4, 10:4. Job 25:6, Psalm 8:4 and in the book of Daniel. Jesus Christ often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God."

The idiom is also present in the New Testament. Sons of peace refers to a peaceful person. (Luke 10:6). Sons of Abraham are those like him in the exercise of faith. (Galatians 3:7). Son of perdition is the lost one. This refers to two persons, Judas and the antichrist. (John 17:12) (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

At this point I want to explain how all of this applys to Jesus Christ. But first let me say I am not going to explain the terms "Firstborn" or the term "Only Begotten," (although I could) as it pertains to Jesus Christ. I am not going to get into the weeds about explaining the Trinity either.

The most important question for me is the one that Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:13, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" Notice what Peter says at vs16, "Thou are the Christ/Messiah, the Son of the living God." How did Peter know this? Verse 17, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, BUT MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN."

Now, I'm going to address the argument from the "anti's" that the Jews misunderstood, or did not understand their own scriptures, or the reasons why they hated Him as it pertains to the claims of Jesus. Here's the question? Whether or not the Jews are correctly or incorrectly understood Jesus is NOT the isssue. The issue is "What was it that Jesus said that caused them to accuse Him of blasphemy resulting in His death/crucifixion?

John 5:17-18, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why), He not only was breaking the Sabbath but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." Jesus knew who He was even at an early age. Luke 2:48-49, When His mother and father were looking for Him He says at vs49, "Why is it that you were looking for Me. Did you not know that I had to be in MY FATHER'S HOUSE?"

John 8:56-59, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham? vs58, Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you before Abraham was born (or sprang into exitence) I am." Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple."

John 10:30-37. "I and the Father are one." There is more to this verse than Jesus just saying He and the Father are one in purpose. Of course they are one in purpose otherwise there would be no reason for them to say at vs31, "The Jews took up stones AGAIN to stone Him." Jesus ask why are you stoning Me? Vs33, "The Jews answered Him, for a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out God." At verse 34-36 Jesus brings up Psalm 82:6, why?

Notice that it is Jesus who brings up the subject of God and not the subject of Him and the Father being one in purpose. At vs36 Jesus says, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, (Jesus was not a created being, He was sent into the world by God His Father). "You are blaspheming because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD." So again, why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6?

At John 19:7 the Jews appeal to Pilate and Pilate says (vs6) "I find no guilt in Him" the Jews say, Vs7, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He make Himself OUT THE SON OF GOD." So again, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus why did they bring up the law at John 19:7? The law that Jesus supposedly broke is at Leviticus 24:16.

Now we come to the complete trial record at Matthew 26:57-68. I'm not going to quote all the verses but explain the main points. At vs59, "the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain FALSE testimony against Jesus, in order to PUT HIM TO DEATH." at vs63, the high priest Caiaphas says, " I adjure You (he wants Jesus to swear as to His identity), "I adjure you by the living God, that You tell us whether (Whether means in either case). So the high priest is asking the one person of Jesus Christ are You (1) the Christ/Messiah and (2) THE SON OF GOD."

In Luke's account Jesus says, "Yes, I am." Then at vs65 of Matthew 26:65, "Then the high priest tore his robes saying, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have heard the blasphemy;" So, why would Jesus be accused of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God since the Jews themselves claim to be sons of God? It is not blasphemous offense to claim to be the "Messiah/Christ. In fact all through history people have come along claiming to be the Messiah even including today and none of them have been put to death for making the claim.

In summing up, please read what the Apostle John's authorial intent was at John 20:30-31 right after Thomas made his declaration to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God." "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; vs31, but these have been written that you may beleive that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; and that believing you may have life in his name."

So we went full circle from Jesus asking, "Who do people say that I am" and Peter saying, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" to the conclusion by the Apostle John that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, The Son of God." To me, it's "inconceivable" that Jesus Christ is "a son of God" just like the rest of us.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Apr 14, 2020
263
15
18
#4
The following is what I posted yesterday. In answer to your specific question? "Did Jesus ever explicitly say or use the exact words, "I am God," no. Do you know why? If He had then the obvious conclusion (at least to the Jews and others) is that Jesus would be promoting "polytheism." Btw, Jesus "WAS NOT FORSAKEN on that cross by His Father.

We all know that when one ask the question, "Who is Jesus Christ" the inevitable answer will be, "He is the Son of God." Okay, but what does that really mean? Does it mean Jesus is the Son of God just like Christians are called and identified as the sons of God? No, Christians are "adopted" sons of God, we are not "THE" Son of God in an exclusive sense as pointed out at John 3:16.

The Jews have what is known as "idioms" just like all nationalities have idioms. One of the idioms they have is "the son of" idiom. For example in the Old Testament you will read various phrases like, "Sons of prophets," refer to men belogning to a prophetic band. (1 Kings 20:35). Sons of the goldsmiths refers to a goldsmith (Nehemiah 3:31). How about "Sons of affliction are afflicted ones. (Proverbs 31:8). Sons of valor, is simply a brave man. (1 Samuel 14:52.) There are literally thousands of these idioms throughout the Bible.

The idiom also demonstrates one posse3ssing a certain nature. The idiom, "son of man" clealy exhibits the use of the word "son" to show the possession of a certain nature. This is brought out at Numbers 23:19. "God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." The "son of man" idiom is used throughout the Bible. Ezekiel 2:1, 3:3,4, 10:4. Job 25:6, Psalm 8:4 and in the book of Daniel. Jesus Christ often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God."

The idiom is also present in the New Testament. Sons of peace refers to a peaceful person. (Luke 10:6). Sons of Abraham are those like him in the exercise of faith. (Galatians 3:7). Son of perdition is the lost one. This refers to two persons, Judas and the antichrist. (John 17:12) (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

At this point I want to explain how all of this applys to Jesus Christ. But first let me say I am not going to explain the terms "Firstborn" or the term "Only Begotten," (although I could) as it pertains to Jesus Christ. I am not going to get into the weeds about explaining the Trinity either.

The most important question for me is the one that Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:13, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" Notice what Peter says at vs16, "Thou are the Christ/Messiah, the Son of the living God." How did Peter know this? Verse 17, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, BUT MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN."

Now, I'm going to address the argument from the "anti's" that the Jews misunderstood, or did not understand their own scriptures, or the reasons why they hated Him as it pertains to the claims of Jesus. Here's the question? Whether or not the Jews are correctly or incorrectly understood Jesus is NOT the isssue. The issue is "What was it that Jesus said that caused them to accuse Him of blasphemy resulting in His death/crucifixion?

John 5:17-18, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why), He not only was breaking the Sabbath but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." Jesus knew who He was even at an early age. Luke 2:48-49, When His mother and father were looking for Him He says at vs49, "Why is it that you were looking for Me. Did you not know that I had to be in MY FATHER'S HOUSE?"

John 8:56-59, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham? vs58, Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you before Abraham was born (or sprang into exitence) I am." Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple."

John 10:30-37. "I and the Father are one." There is more to this verse than Jesus just saying He and the Father are one in purpose. Of course they are one in purpose otherwise there would be no reason for them to say at vs31, "The Jews took up stones AGAIN to stone Him." Jesus ask why are you stoning Me? Vs33, "The Jews answered Him, for a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out God." At verse 34-36 Jesus brings up Psalm 82:6, why?

Notice that it is Jesus who brings up the subject of God and not the subject of Him and the Father being one in purpose. At vs36 Jesus says, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, (Jesus was not a created being, He was sent into the world by God His Father). "You are blaspheming because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD." So again, why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6?

At John 19:7 the Jews appeal to Pilate and Pilate says (vs6) "I find no guilt in Him" the Jews say, Vs7, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He make Himself OUT THE SON OF GOD." So again, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus why did they bring up the law at John 19:7? The law that Jesus supposedly broke is at Leviticus 24:16.

Now we come to the complete trial record at Matthew 26:57-68. I'm not going to quote all the verses but explain the main points. At vs59, "the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain FALSE testimony against Jesus, in order to PUT HIM TO DEATH." at vs63, the high priest Caiaphas says, " I adjure You (he wants Jesus to swear as to His identity), "I adjure you by the living God, that You tell us whether (Whether means in either case). So the high priest is asking the one person of Jesus Christ are You (1) the Christ/Messiah and (2) THE SON OF GOD."

In Luke's account Jesus says, "Yes, I am." Then at vs65 of Matthew 26:65, "Then the high priest tore his robes saying, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have heard the blasphemy;" So, why would Jesus be accused of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God since the Jews themselves claim to be sons of God? It is not blasphemous offense to claim to be the "Messiah/Christ. In fact all through history people have come along claiming to be the Messiah even including today and none of them have been put to death for making the claim.

In summing up, please read what the Apostle John's authorial intent was at John 20:30-31 right after Thomas made his declaration to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God." "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; vs31, but these have been written that you may beleive that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; and that believing you may have life in his name."

So we went full circle from Jesus asking, "Who do people say that I am" and Peter saying, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" to the conclusion by the Apostle John that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, The Son of God." To me, it's "inconceivable" that Jesus Christ is "a son of God" just like the rest of us.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Trinitarian Christianity is polytheistic
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
396
322
63
#5
Did Jesus even actually explicitly claim he was God?
Yes. Jesus refered to himself as I Am, an old testament reference that the people around him at the time would have without any doubt understood to mean Jesus is calling himself God. He also said that he is equal to God many times.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
911
466
63
#10
Jesus quoted Psalm 22 because when he was hanging on the cross, some people were mocking him. Their taunts inferred that his Father had forsaken him, so he quoted a psalm which teaches that God would mever forsake him. Read it.