If Jesus Joined This Forum . . .
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That is a false dichotomy.
Jesus set. a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law and he never criticized them for obey it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus said that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters.
The whole point of a rabbi/disciple relationship is for a disciple to learn how to obey the Mosaic Law though memorizing their rabbi's teachings and following his example, and as Christ's disciples we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognized the authority of the scribes and Pharisees by recognizing that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they tell us, so while he had problems with them such as with their pride and hypocrisy, he was not opposed to them teaching how to obey the Mosaic Law..
A number of prominent Pharisees became disciples of Jesus, such as with Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and Paul never stopped identify as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6). This means that most of the NT books were written by a Pharisee, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul instructed us to be imitators of him as he is of Christ, so we are instructed to be imitators of a Pharisee. Moreover, there were other believers who did not stop identifying as Pharisees (Acts 15:5). In regard to the debate between the house of Hillel and the house of Shammai, Jesus was virtually in complete agreement with the house of Hillel, so he was by no means opposed to all Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes, but rather hw affirmed one of the scribes in Matthew 12:28-34.
Jesus set. a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law and he never criticized them for obey it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus said that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters.
The whole point of a rabbi/disciple relationship is for a disciple to learn how to obey the Mosaic Law though memorizing their rabbi's teachings and following his example, and as Christ's disciples we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognized the authority of the scribes and Pharisees by recognizing that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they tell us, so while he had problems with them such as with their pride and hypocrisy, he was not opposed to them teaching how to obey the Mosaic Law..
A number of prominent Pharisees became disciples of Jesus, such as with Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and Paul never stopped identify as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6). This means that most of the NT books were written by a Pharisee, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul instructed us to be imitators of him as he is of Christ, so we are instructed to be imitators of a Pharisee. Moreover, there were other believers who did not stop identifying as Pharisees (Acts 15:5). In regard to the debate between the house of Hillel and the house of Shammai, Jesus was virtually in complete agreement with the house of Hillel, so he was by no means opposed to all Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes, but rather hw affirmed one of the scribes in Matthew 12:28-34.
i agree with many things you say but being imitators of pharisees? NEVER, Jesus also hated them for what they were, and warned us about them. He said to follow HIM and no one else! You have you forgotten;
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go inyourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier mattersof the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first thatwhich is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Jesus explained why we must not be like them, never. Jesus warned us against the leaven of the pharisees, remember they were murderous! they hide behind the law but corrupts it's meaning and true application as Christ thought us, through Love and mercy as the foundation of the Law. The pharisees had no love or mercy.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go inyourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier mattersof the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first thatwhich is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Jesus explained why we must not be like them, never. Jesus warned us against the leaven of the pharisees, remember they were murderous! they hide behind the law but corrupts it's meaning and true application as Christ thought us, through Love and mercy as the foundation of the Law. The pharisees had no love or mercy.
While the Pharisees that Jesus was criticizing certainly had faults, it is not as though they had no good qualities either, and it is not as though all Pharisees had those faults. In Luke 12:1, Jesus said to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Again, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that the Pharisees sit in the Seat of Moses, so do and observe all that they tell us, but do not do as they do, so again he warned against their hypocrisy, but he did recognize their authority to teach the Torah. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus again called them hypocrites, but he affirmed that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faith. Again, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, Paul, and a number of other believers were all Pharisees who were followers of Jesus, so it is false that we should never be like them.
Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel and Gamaliel was Paul's rabbi. Hillel taught many things that were similar to what Jesus taught, so it is not as though Jesus was the only one to recognize love and mercy as being weightier matters of the Torah, for example (Shabbat 31a):
There was another incident involving one gentile who came before Shammai and said to Shammai: Convert me on condition that you teach me the entire Torah while I am standing on one foot. Shammai pushed him away with the builder’s cubit in his hand. This was a common measuring stick and Shammai was a builder by trade. The same gentile came before Hillel. He converted him and said to him: That which is hateful to you do not do to another; that is the entire Torah, and the rest is its interpretation. Go study.
Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel and Gamaliel was Paul's rabbi. Hillel taught many things that were similar to what Jesus taught, so it is not as though Jesus was the only one to recognize love and mercy as being weightier matters of the Torah, for example (Shabbat 31a):
There was another incident involving one gentile who came before Shammai and said to Shammai: Convert me on condition that you teach me the entire Torah while I am standing on one foot. Shammai pushed him away with the builder’s cubit in his hand. This was a common measuring stick and Shammai was a builder by trade. The same gentile came before Hillel. He converted him and said to him: That which is hateful to you do not do to another; that is the entire Torah, and the rest is its interpretation. Go study.
Then why paul was persecuting the church to the point of being murderous before his conversion. Gamaliel may have preached leniency but He was a pharisee at the core. they stick to their rules and stick toghether or they would be kicked out. Is there any records in the time of Jesus of pharisees who left their functions to follow Jesus, to my recollection they did not. Some knew he was the son of GOD and tried to talk in Jesus favour but they never left the ranks of the pharisees because of the high societal status and privileges it procured them, if they would be followers they would have left these sects!
There is no way to reconcile the pharisee and sadducees sects to Christ, it is impossible, for you to preach this is not right. No one ever should follow their example even less teach other to do so. Be cereful not to follow their doctrines it will harden your heart to the truth. Jesus is the only way to eternal life, he is the light one must follow not the doctrine of the pharisees.
Peace.
There is no way to reconcile the pharisee and sadducees sects to Christ, it is impossible, for you to preach this is not right. No one ever should follow their example even less teach other to do so. Be cereful not to follow their doctrines it will harden your heart to the truth. Jesus is the only way to eternal life, he is the light one must follow not the doctrine of the pharisees.
Peace.
This thread title caught my eye on the forum front page.
Man, if Jesus joined this forum... I'd hate to see that.
Are we talking covert, like if he joined as "Bill_3-16" or are we talking overt, like if he joined as "Jesus-Christ"? Either way it would be a travesty.
If he joined as "Jesus-Christ" 97% of the forum would demand he prove it. And when miracles began happening on demand to prove it, more than 80% of the "prove it!" bunch would get real busy finding perfectly rational explanations for all those coincidences.
If he joined as "Bill_3-16" anything he said would get the following replies:
43% would argue with bible verses ripped out of context.
37% would say no REAL Christian could believe what he believes.
61% would say he's going to hell if he doesn't repent.
(I know I'm already over 100%, but some people would say multiple things.)
27% would tag him to get a notification whenever he posts, so they could follow him around the forum and argue with everything he says.
33% would put him on ignore, with a very ostentatious announcement of the Ignore Event.
26% would support him, but just to tick off the people who were arguing with him.
Man, if Jesus joined this forum... I'd hate to see that.
Are we talking covert, like if he joined as "Bill_3-16" or are we talking overt, like if he joined as "Jesus-Christ"? Either way it would be a travesty.
If he joined as "Jesus-Christ" 97% of the forum would demand he prove it. And when miracles began happening on demand to prove it, more than 80% of the "prove it!" bunch would get real busy finding perfectly rational explanations for all those coincidences.
If he joined as "Bill_3-16" anything he said would get the following replies:
43% would argue with bible verses ripped out of context.
37% would say no REAL Christian could believe what he believes.
61% would say he's going to hell if he doesn't repent.
(I know I'm already over 100%, but some people would say multiple things.)
27% would tag him to get a notification whenever he posts, so they could follow him around the forum and argue with everything he says.
33% would put him on ignore, with a very ostentatious announcement of the Ignore Event.
26% would support him, but just to tick off the people who were arguing with him.
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I've always said most Christians wouldn't find Jesus if He came back today like He did the first time. They would be looking at the big Osteen churches, the tv evangelists, the pope. But you would find him walking the hospitals, talking with the drugged out homeless, in the school playgrounds.
I had a pastor friend, I believe he has passed now. He had a huge church out in the country. But it was a big church for a different reason than most big churches. He would go to the hospitals and he would ask if he could pray for the sick. That's all he did. He would pray and comfort people as much as he could. He gained peoples trust and before long these people started getting saved and people around the area loved him and knew him. When they had trouble they called him. Suddenly he had a huge church. You'll be driving in the country and in the middle of nowhere this huge church pops up. I was honored to minister in the church a couple times. Wonderful pastor and thriving church. We need many more like him.
I had a pastor friend, I believe he has passed now. He had a huge church out in the country. But it was a big church for a different reason than most big churches. He would go to the hospitals and he would ask if he could pray for the sick. That's all he did. He would pray and comfort people as much as he could. He gained peoples trust and before long these people started getting saved and people around the area loved him and knew him. When they had trouble they called him. Suddenly he had a huge church. You'll be driving in the country and in the middle of nowhere this huge church pops up. I was honored to minister in the church a couple times. Wonderful pastor and thriving church. We need many more like him.
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