If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?
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Genesis 1 teaches that God created souls for animals.
What's the difference in souls?
Only man's soul was created in God's image.
Created, "bara" out from nothing. Genesis 1:27
Created 'out from nothing' in His image.
Only later did God provide bodies for the soul of man. Genesis 2
And, the body (unlike the soul) the body was not created out from nothing.
Rather, the body for Adam was "molded and formed" [jatsar] out from the elements of the earth.
Elements of the earth which had previously been created...
And, the body for animals?
Those bodies, like Adam's, were also 'molded and formed' out from the earth! Genesis 2:19
The animal souls were created [bara] out from nothing (Genesis 1:20-24) prior to providing bodies.
Yes... Animals have souls. Just not a soul created in God's image.
Man's soul was designed for eternal life.
Not the animal souls...
That is why God could give animals for food.
grace and peace ....................
What's the difference in souls?
Only man's soul was created in God's image.
Created, "bara" out from nothing. Genesis 1:27
Created 'out from nothing' in His image.
Only later did God provide bodies for the soul of man. Genesis 2
And, the body (unlike the soul) the body was not created out from nothing.
Rather, the body for Adam was "molded and formed" [jatsar] out from the elements of the earth.
Elements of the earth which had previously been created...
And, the body for animals?
Those bodies, like Adam's, were also 'molded and formed' out from the earth! Genesis 2:19
The animal souls were created [bara] out from nothing (Genesis 1:20-24) prior to providing bodies.
Yes... Animals have souls. Just not a soul created in God's image.
Man's soul was designed for eternal life.
Not the animal souls...
That is why God could give animals for food.
grace and peace ....................
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I agree. However, do you have any thoughts on why God should inflict pain on animals, despite the fact they were not created in God's image and are not given Eternal Life? My own thought is that the earth reflected a preexisting fall among the angels, and man was created to showcase God's image in the midst of the cruelty of nature.
And so, he was to "name" the animals, perhaps indicating a better purpose for them in the future when God brings the entire universe into conformity with His image. Thoughts on this?
And so, he was to "name" the animals, perhaps indicating a better purpose for them in the future when God brings the entire universe into conformity with His image. Thoughts on this?
I am not sure what you meant when you stated that God was to inflict pain on animals.
I guessing what you mean when I say...
It has been since Adam's fall, the whole creation groans awaiting its deliverance.
The creation began to reflect the fall of angels after Adam fell. Not before.
Matter of fact. Fallen mankind is a reflection the nature of fallen angels.
And, those people who walk in grace and truth reflect the nature that God's angels identify with.
grace and pece ............
I guessing what you mean when I say...
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in
the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Rom 8:22
It has been since Adam's fall, the whole creation groans awaiting its deliverance.
The creation began to reflect the fall of angels after Adam fell. Not before.
Matter of fact. Fallen mankind is a reflection the nature of fallen angels.
And, those people who walk in grace and truth reflect the nature that God's angels identify with.
grace and pece ............
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what soul was not created for life?
it becomes a soul by being given the breath of life, which is the breath of the Spirit of life, which is the breath of God - - and He is not the god of death but the God of Life.
the purpose of all life is to be eternal; every soul is resurrected.
agree with the rest of your comment =)
it becomes a soul by being given the breath of life, which is the breath of the Spirit of life, which is the breath of God - - and He is not the god of death but the God of Life.
the purpose of all life is to be eternal; every soul is resurrected.
agree with the rest of your comment =)
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we are told, for hope
the ground was cursed for Adam's sake - the dust of which the body is made.
the dust will be redeemed, and the bodies resurrected - not only ours but every soul, when He appears and makes the new creation.
Romans 8:20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected [it] in hope
hope of the revealing of Christ, calling many sons to glory.the ground was cursed for Adam's sake - the dust of which the body is made.
the dust will be redeemed, and the bodies resurrected - not only ours but every soul, when He appears and makes the new creation.
every beast of the field belongs to Him. He does not forsake them.
I have a theory on this one...
Fossil records show that large flesh eating dinosaurs did not appear in the ealiest period.
The huge flesh eating dinosaurs probably first appeared after Satan fell.
With flesh eating, fierce, dinosaurs God that way could illustrate to the angels what kind of mental attitude Satan had towards God's angels... Satan in his evil ways would mentally rip them up and devour the naive gentle ones.
Fossil records show that large flesh eating dinosaurs did not appear in the ealiest period.
The huge flesh eating dinosaurs probably first appeared after Satan fell.
With flesh eating, fierce, dinosaurs God that way could illustrate to the angels what kind of mental attitude Satan had towards God's angels... Satan in his evil ways would mentally rip them up and devour the naive gentle ones.
1 Peter 5:8
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
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Ha Ha Haa!
Actually, my answer is the least presumptuous answer possible. My answer is that it does not matter to me whether "eternal life" can or cannot be lost. There are biblical passages which can readily be commandeered to a permanent eternal life side (but can be reasonably interpreted compatibly with a losable eternal life view, and vice versa. So your approach, ".Can we lose/forfeit eternal life that we have NOW? ... the answer is unequivocally NO," is actually one of the most presumptuous answers. The other being that "... the answer is unequivocally NO."
Actually, my answer is the least presumptuous answer possible. My answer is that it does not matter to me whether "eternal life" can or cannot be lost. There are biblical passages which can readily be commandeered to a permanent eternal life side (but can be reasonably interpreted compatibly with a losable eternal life view, and vice versa. So your approach, ".Can we lose/forfeit eternal life that we have NOW? ... the answer is unequivocally NO," is actually one of the most presumptuous answers. The other being that "... the answer is unequivocally NO."
God created everything good. God commissioned angels to serve man and commissioned man to rule over and husband the earth.
Satan decided he wanted to rule the earth and be served by men. Satan lied to seduce man into handing authority over the earth to Him. He seduced other angels to join his insurrection against God. The fallen angels a.k.a. demons entered and genetically perverted men and beasts into giant killing machines. God did not inflict pain on anyone or anything.
Satan decided he wanted to rule the earth and be served by men. Satan lied to seduce man into handing authority over the earth to Him. He seduced other angels to join his insurrection against God. The fallen angels a.k.a. demons entered and genetically perverted men and beasts into giant killing machines. God did not inflict pain on anyone or anything.
There is nothing wrong with what you pejoratively call "a mishmash of doctrine", or what we would call today "the free market of ideas". The only problem is the epistemic pride of those who are so certain they are right that they believe they are justified to disparage and bully and emotionally manipulate and even persecute others into submitting to their superior knowledge.
We should be epistemically humble enough to present the case we have for our beliefs, and to allow others to weigh that case and make their own decisions without how persuasive it is. Cancel culture is not epistemic humility.
We should be epistemically humble enough to present the case we have for our beliefs, and to allow others to weigh that case and make their own decisions without how persuasive it is. Cancel culture is not epistemic humility.
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Fish have souls. Animals have souls.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving (שֶׁרֶץ) creature (נֶפֶשׁ , H5315 NePheSh) that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Jer 2:24
A wild ass used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind at with the lust (בְּאַוַּת) of her soul (נַפְשָׁהּ , NaPhShaH )) ; in her occasion who can turn her away? all they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her.
The KJV translates Strong's H5315 in the following manner: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), miscellaneous (47x).
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving (שֶׁרֶץ) creature (נֶפֶשׁ , H5315 NePheSh) that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Jer 2:24
A wild ass used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind at with the lust (בְּאַוַּת) of her soul (נַפְשָׁהּ , NaPhShaH )) ; in her occasion who can turn her away? all they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her.
The KJV translates Strong's H5315 in the following manner: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), miscellaneous (47x).
- soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
- that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
- living being
- living being (with life in the blood)
- the man himself, self, person or individual
- seat of the appetites
- seat of emotions and passions
- activity of mind
- dubious
- activity of the will
- dubious
- activity of the character
- dubious
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Unfortunately, too many seem to still fit into the mold of what Paul was dealing with:
Well, my pastor says...
And then with the various systematic traditions, we have another level of the problem.
I've watched a few "exegete" Scripture by analyzing every word as far as it can be parsed and interpreted, analyze every grammatical structure, and fit it all together where I was essentially in agreement with every point, only to then have them take a leap to fit it into a systematic theology when there was no way that one verse or section of Scripture could be taken there apart from a tremendous amount of yet unfinished work, which could undo the premature conclusion.
We're still arguing for many reasons, a few of which I've just identified.
Make sure the Only Foundation (1Cor3:10-11) is accurately laid, grow a bit, then just let the Word speak and learn to study and interact with IT/HIM by His Spirit and with others who are doing the same.
"epistemic humility" is mostly unknown in the church today and we seem a very long way from corporate maturity:
NKJ 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
Well, my pastor says...
And then with the various systematic traditions, we have another level of the problem.
I've watched a few "exegete" Scripture by analyzing every word as far as it can be parsed and interpreted, analyze every grammatical structure, and fit it all together where I was essentially in agreement with every point, only to then have them take a leap to fit it into a systematic theology when there was no way that one verse or section of Scripture could be taken there apart from a tremendous amount of yet unfinished work, which could undo the premature conclusion.
We're still arguing for many reasons, a few of which I've just identified.
Make sure the Only Foundation (1Cor3:10-11) is accurately laid, grow a bit, then just let the Word speak and learn to study and interact with IT/HIM by His Spirit and with others who are doing the same.
"epistemic humility" is mostly unknown in the church today and we seem a very long way from corporate maturity:
NKJ Eph. 4:13-15 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-- Christ--
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Unless you utterly reject the scientific community, which I don't, animals ate animals well before Man appeared on this earth. I do question many things that scientists say in theory, without real supporting evidence. But some things seem pretty obvious to me.
The animals were created with teeth to kill, rip, and tear prey for food. Demons did not inspire mutation in creation.
God created things the way they are. But I believe He did it for a reason, to display evil even in a way such as to show His goodness.
It was good to reveal to Man what violence looks like, well before he participated in it, so as to encourage him *not* to participate in it. He shouldn't have wanted to know what it is like to choose good or evil for himself.
Man should've known not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil, which makes him the arbitor of right and wrong. To challenge God's laws prohibiting Man from acting outside of God's image necessarily results in animal-like violence. Man, in trying to be a god, in effect becomes a "beast."
So I thnk it was still "good" for God to create violent beasts. They were moral lessons for Man, inducing him to make right choices. He was to rise above and "judge" the beasts in God's Kingdom. In theory, that's how I see it.
The animals were created with teeth to kill, rip, and tear prey for food. Demons did not inspire mutation in creation.
God created things the way they are. But I believe He did it for a reason, to display evil even in a way such as to show His goodness.
It was good to reveal to Man what violence looks like, well before he participated in it, so as to encourage him *not* to participate in it. He shouldn't have wanted to know what it is like to choose good or evil for himself.
Man should've known not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil, which makes him the arbitor of right and wrong. To challenge God's laws prohibiting Man from acting outside of God's image necessarily results in animal-like violence. Man, in trying to be a god, in effect becomes a "beast."
So I thnk it was still "good" for God to create violent beasts. They were moral lessons for Man, inducing him to make right choices. He was to rise above and "judge" the beasts in God's Kingdom. In theory, that's how I see it.
Satan was already fallen before man was created.
Lucifer wanted to rule over angels.
And, to replace the Lord's rightful place in doing so.
Isaiah 14:13-14
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne (he did not want to establish himself on earth!)
above the stars of God; (the morning star angels)
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.(location where the angels would assemble on the old earth)
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.” (he wanted to REPLACE the Lord!) = murder in his heart!
Man would have to worship him on earth.
Yet, it says that Satan wanted worship from those who would be situated above the clouds!
No, I would not have *human* death enter in before Man sinned. But yes, *animals* died before Adam sinned. Either that, or you believe all the animals that were created before mankind lived only only vegetables and never died and were producing fossils.
Please note that human sin equals human death--not, human sin equals the death of animals.
Please note that human sin equals human death--not, human sin equals the death of animals.