IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

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GraceAndTruth

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The problem with your vew is the abomination of desecration has to take place in the Temple. The antichrist will enter the temple and proclaim himself God. That didn't occur but almost did. One emperor had a gold statue made of himself to be put in the temple. It was damaged before it could be placed there and never fixed. So it never happened back then. We have the Israelites getting ready to build a new third temple on the site of the original site of the 2 previous ones. Therefore we will have to wait until the new third temple is built for the abomination of desecration to take place.

Antiochus Epiphanes (the "little horn" out of Greece) plundered the original temple and desecrated it by offering a PIG on the alter. This was before the 70 yr Babylon captivity when the 1st temple was destroyed. Refer to Daniel 8:9 and check your history on that.

A third temple? Hmmm, bet you are looking for that red heifer too.
The bible only speaks of two temples being built, which are both destroyed.
Now you have a problem showing scripture for a 3rd temple.

Whatever the "israelites" are planning to build, and they are always planning to build something, they first beter figure out just where that temple should be since they think Ft Antonia's wall is part of the old temple and use it as their "wailing wall". According to people who actually know where the temple was, there was not one stone left upon another.......total destruction in AD70.

It's sad that religious Jews are still looking for their "messiah", and yes they do need the blood atonement, but since they rejected Jesus Christ as the Perfect Lamb, they are on their own and no blood of animals will please God no matter if they build 20 temples.
 

GraceAndTruth

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The problem with your vew is the abomination of desecration has to take place in the Temple. The antichrist will enter the temple and proclaim himself God. That didn't occur but almost did. One emperor had a gold statue made of himself to be put in the temple. It was damaged before it could be placed there and never fixed. So it never happened back then. We have the Israelites getting ready to build a new third temple on the site of the original site of the 2 previous ones. Therefore we will have to wait until the new third temple is built for the abomination of desecration to take place.
I knew you would have some convoluted answer that makes no sense, just like all the premillies.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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What do you do w/Mt 24;21 '...there will b great trib, unmatched and not to b seen again..'. Are you saying that was the worst it is going to get?
YUP.......
well of course there will be THE END at the last trump when the earth is destroyed by intense heat (and everything on it with it)
But first Jesus Christ comes for His people, (parousia)..... then that's it.

I keep trying to tell people, that prophesy was to the Jews about the Jews. And was fulfilled in the time of their generation.
RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Antiochus Epiphanes (the "little horn" out of Greece) plundered the original temple and desecrated it by offering a PIG on the alter. This was before the 70 yr Babylon captivity when the 1st temple was destroyed. Refer to Daniel 8:9 and check your history on that.

A third temple? Hmmm, bet you are looking for that red heifer too.
The bible only speaks of two temples being built, which are both destroyed.
Now you have a problem showing scripture for a 3rd temple.

Whatever the "israelites" are planning to build, and they are always planning to build something, they first beter figure out just where that temple should be since they think Ft Antonia's wall is part of the old temple and use it as their "wailing wall". According to people who actually know where the temple was, there was not one stone left upon another.......total destruction in AD70.

It's sad that religious Jews are still looking for their "messiah", and yes they do need the blood atonement, but since they rejected Jesus Christ as the Perfect Lamb, they are on their own and no blood of animals will please God no matter if they build 20 temples.
Check out that video posted earlier. Very likely the actual Holy Site has been located, and its is under the city of David, not the dome of the rock, therefore building it is quite feasible politically.

The 3rd Temple is the Temple of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and Revelation.
Also, Daniel 9 makes no sense unless there is a 3rd Temple.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Antiochus Epiphanes (the "little horn" out of Greece) plundered the original temple and desecrated it by offering a PIG on the alter. This was before the 70 yr Babylon captivity when the 1st temple was destroyed. Refer to Daniel 8:9 and check your history on that.

A third temple? Hmmm, bet you are looking for that red heifer too.
The bible only speaks of two temples being built, which are both destroyed.
Now you have a problem showing scripture for a 3rd temple.

Whatever the "israelites" are planning to build, and they are always planning to build something, they first beter figure out just where that temple should be since they think Ft Antonia's wall is part of the old temple and use it as their "wailing wall". According to people who actually know where the temple was, there was not one stone left upon another.......total destruction in AD70.

It's sad that religious Jews are still looking for their "messiah", and yes they do need the blood atonement, but since they rejected Jesus Christ as the Perfect Lamb, they are on their own and no blood of animals will please God no matter if they build 20 temples.
Nope. Building the 3rd Temple is all about fulfilling prophecy. Prophecy is fulfilled by secular entities ALL THE TIME in Scripture.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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Check out that video posted earlier. Very likely the actual Holy Site has been located, and its is under the city of David, not the dome of the rock, therefore building it is quite feasible politically.

The 3rd Temple is the Temple of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and Revelation.
Also, Daniel 9 makes no sense unless there is a 3rd Temple.
I don't need a video to explain history, geography or scripture to me. Thanks anyway and good luck to you.
I'm sorry the bible makes no sense to you.
 

KJV1611

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Nov 23, 2013
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I think we both agree that Jesus is the first fruits. The first born among the dead.

I think you view the "first resurrection" as Jesus and the saints that were raised at His crucifixion as the only people that took part in that. I see the "first resurrection" as something that happens to all believers after death during this current age. It is a spiritual resurrection and they live on with Christ. So we see that a little differently.

I think we can both agree that there are two resurrections. Rev 20 makes that clear. The second resurrection is physical and happens at the GWT judgment. I think we both agree on that.

Where we disagree is the GWT judgment happening in "two parts". There is no scriptural justification for that. It can't happen at the cross for the timeline reasons contained in Rev 20 that I already shared with you.

So you are saying the "second part of the GWT judgment" happens at the GWT judgment in Rev 20. So I have to ask you this question:

When does the "first part" happen?
I gave you scriptural evidence for two resurrections but you chose to spiritualize those verses.

I also mentioned Jesus comes and goes the same way and you say that’s not proof.

I also mentioned Daniel 12 and you don’t agree with that either.

I also mentioned the saints that rose with Christ and you don’t agree here either.

All of those and many other scriptures cause me to believe the way I do.

As I said earlier the first resurrection and judgement started when Christ rose with the saints.

The biggest reasons our views differ on this is because you spiritualize the resurrection and judgements in John. And if your view changed on that your views on all the other things I mentioned would change too.

So one verse or passage causes our views to be 180 degrees apart.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Mr KJV1611, patience is a virtue and you are VERY virtuous.
Maybe time to shake the dust......too many pearls trampled.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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I don't need a video to explain history, geography or scripture to me. Thanks anyway and good luck to you.
I'm sorry the bible makes no sense to you.
Actually the Bible makes perfect sense to me. I have a very good sense of prophecy and how it fits together. BTW....the time is near IMO. Maybe a generation maybe 2, but the fact is that Israel (who are a sign) are in the land of promise. Now.
 

delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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I gave you scriptural evidence for two resurrections but you chose to spiritualize those verses.
I did not spiritualize John 5. Verses 24 and 25 are talking about spiritual resurrection. Verses 28 and 29 are talking about the general resurrection of the dead at the GWT. Two resurrections! So we agree..sort of lol. :p

I also mentioned Jesus comes and goes the same way and you say that’s not proof.
I believe He will come again visibly in a cloud just like He left. We agree again! :cool:

I also mentioned Daniel 12 and you don’t agree with that either.
Daniel 12 cannot happen both at the cross and at the end of time. The timeline of Rev 20 refutes that possibility.

I also mentioned the saints that rose with Christ and you don’t agree here either.
I don't believe the saints that came out of the tombs at His crucifixion ascended to heaven with Him. There is no scriptural evidence for that. Jesus is the first born among the dead. If those saints that came out of the tombs at His crucifixion, which was 3 days before He resurrected ascended with Him, then He wouldn't be the first born of the dead. :( Those saints died again. Just like Lazarus.

As I said earlier the first resurrection and judgement started when Christ rose with the saints.
Rev 20's timeline says no.

The biggest reasons our views differ on this is because you spiritualize the resurrection and judgements in John.
I think it's ironic that you say I spiritualize. I gave sound exegetical reasons for John 5. Just like I did with the Rev 20 timeline that shows your view of the "first resurrection" and "GWT" both happening at the cross to be impossible. I used Scripture and simple logic. Spiritualizing is when you make the text say what you want.

It's all good brother. We've exchanged ideas on this topic. I don't want to keep arguing with you on these verses. God bless. :)
 

cv5

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I did not spiritualize John 5. Verses 24 and 25 are talking about spiritual resurrection. Verses 28 and 29 are talking about the general resurrection of the dead at the GWT. Two resurrections! So we agree..sort of lol. :p



I believe He will come again visibly in a cloud just like He left. We agree again! :cool:



Daniel 12 cannot happen both at the cross and at the end of time. The timeline of Rev 20 refutes that possibility.



I don't believe the saints that came out of the tombs at His crucifixion ascended to heaven with Him. There is no scriptural evidence for that. Jesus is the first born among the dead. If those saints that came out of the tombs at His crucifixion, which was 3 days before He resurrected ascended with Him, then He wouldn't be the first born of the dead. :( Those saints died again. Just like Lazarus.



Rev 20's timeline says no.



I think it's ironic that you say I spiritualize. I gave sound exegetical reasons for John 5. Just like I did with the Rev 20 timeline that shows your view of the "first resurrection" and "GWT" both happening at the cross to be impossible. I used Scripture and simple logic. Spiritualizing is when you make the text say what you want.

It's all good brother. We've exchanged ideas on this topic. I don't want to keep arguing with you on these verses. God bless. :)
These Rev 20 souls are probably the Daniel 12 souls...

Rev 20

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

The pre-trib and millennial interpretation has everything going for it.
 

KJV1611

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Nov 23, 2013
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I did not spiritualize John 5. Verses 24 and 25 are talking about spiritual resurrection. Verses 28 and 29 are talking about the general resurrection of the dead at the GWT. Two resurrections! So we agree..sort of lol. :p



I believe He will come again visibly in a cloud just like He left. We agree again! :cool:



Daniel 12 cannot happen both at the cross and at the end of time. The timeline of Rev 20 refutes that possibility.



I don't believe the saints that came out of the tombs at His crucifixion ascended to heaven with Him. There is no scriptural evidence for that. Jesus is the first born among the dead. If those saints that came out of the tombs at His crucifixion, which was 3 days before He resurrected ascended with Him, then He wouldn't be the first born of the dead. :( Those saints died again. Just like Lazarus.



Rev 20's timeline says no.



I think it's ironic that you say I spiritualize. I gave sound exegetical reasons for John 5. Just like I did with the Rev 20 timeline that shows your view of the "first resurrection" and "GWT" both happening at the cross to be impossible. I used Scripture and simple logic. Spiritualizing is when you make the text say what you want.

It's all good brother. We've exchanged ideas on this topic. I don't want to keep arguing with you on these verses. God bless. :)
One last point. By you spiritualizing the verse below you are saying that Jesus is preaching the gospel and converting people right then, present time but yet THE HOUR HAS NOT COME when the spiritually dead shall hear his voice. Do you see a problem with that?

Joh 5:25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 

delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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One last point. By you spiritualizing the verse below you are saying that Jesus is preaching the gospel and converting people right then, present time but yet THE HOUR HAS NOT COME when the spiritually dead shall hear his voice. Do you see a problem with that?

Joh 5:25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The hour that "NOW IS" is when Jesus was preaching and people were believing in Him. They passed from death to life when they were converted which you correctly noted. A spiritual resurrection.

The "HOUR IS COMING" is simple to me. The gospel has been preached for 2,000 years and people are being saved. Spiritual resurrection. That "hour" had not come for any of those generations yet. Just like that hour hadn't come for you or me until we were born physically and heard the gospel and believed. Then we were resurrected spiritually. :)
 

cv5

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Ezekiel's 430 Days

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/276/

Prophetic Simile


The Prophet Ezekiel was called upon to undertake a number of strange performances, one of which was to lie on his side for a total of 430 days. 1 Each day was expressly to represent a year of judgment against the nation.


A number of commentators acknowledge a difficulty which appears when one attempts to apply this specifically to Israel's history. Seventy of the years would seem to be accounted for in the Babylonian Captivity, but that leaves 360 years (430 minus 70) unaccounted for. 2 The 360 years do not seem to fit any period of their history.


Leviticus 26


It has been suggested by some that there might be a clue in Leviticus 26, where God indicates that:


...if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. -Leviticus 26:18


(In fact, this commitment is reiterated four times in that chapter for emphasis.3 )


It has been suggested that multiplying the "problem" 360 years by seven yields 2520 years, which is "approximately" the duration of time from the exile through the Diaspora.


This seemed rather contrived. Furthermore, it had bothered me since I never like to use the term "approximately" and "God" in the same sentence! I felt that if it was meant to fit, it would fit precisely.


Calendar Reconciliation


Sir Robert Anderson, in his classic work The Coming Prince, 4 noted that the Bible uses 360-day years in both Genesis and Revelation.5 However, I noticed that no one seemed to try to apply this insight to the 2520 years potentially suggested in Ezekiel Chapter 4.


In attempting to reconcile the 2520 360-day years to our Roman calendar, one is faced with the discrepancies between the sidereal year and the solar year. (The Julian year is 11 minutes and 10.46 seconds longer than the mean solar year.)


In 1572, it was recognized that errors had accumulated to 11 days too many, and adjustments were required. In the Gregorian Reform, September 4th was declared September 14th, and the formula for leap years was changed to exclude centuries unless divisible by four (and millennia by 400). Thus, 2520 360-day years contain 907,200 days, which are accounted for on our current calendar as 2483 years, 9 months and 21 days:




2483 x 365
=​
906,295 days 9 months x 30
=​
270 21 days 21 Leap Years - 2483/4
=​
621 -18 6 +11 7 614 2520 x 360
=
907,200 days




Great. But what do we do with this? Where do we begin to apply it?


Terminus Ad Quem


Another problem occurs when we examine more closely the "Babylonian Captivity." There are two different periods that are candidates: "the Servitude of the Nation," and the "Desolations of Jerusalem." Each of these was prophesied to be seventy years in duration and many assume they are synonymous of each other; however, they are not.


There were actually three sieges of Nebuchadnezzar upon Jerusalem. The first siege began the "Servitude of the Nation" and was prophesied to last 70 years. (And it did, to the very day.8 When Cyrus conquered Babylon he encountered the amazing letter written to him by Isaiah a century and a half earlier, which addressed him by name, highlighted his meteoric career, and predicted that he would free the captives. His astonishment resulted in his releasing the Hebrew captives to return to Judea to rebuild their temple.)


The vassal king that Nebuchadnezzar left later rebelled; a second siege resulted in his uncle, Zedekiah, being appointed to the throne. The prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel both went on to warn that if they persisted in rebelling against Nebuchadnezzar the city of Jerusalem would be destroyed. Yet Zedekiah ultimately yielded to the false prophets and rebelled.


A third siege resulted in the destruction and desolation of the city of Jerusalem. The "Desolations of Jerusalem" also lasted 70 years, until Nehemiah ultimately succeeded in getting the authority to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. This, too, was precisely 70 years. To which of these two periods should we apply the 2520 years?


The "Servitude of the Nation"?


The 70 years of servitude, to be consistent, should be reckoned as 25,200 days, or two days short of 69 years on our Roman calendar. The first siege of Nebuchadnezzar, in 606 B.C., began the "Servitude of the Nation," which lasted until the summer of 537 B.C. If July 23, 537 B.C. was the time of their release:


-537y 7m 23d
+1 (no year "0")
2483y 9m 21d


1948 5 14


On May 14, 1948, the nation Israel was reestablished on the world scene. A remarkable coincidence. Isaiah appears to have highlighted this very restoration:


And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. -Isaiah 11:11, 12


Yet, there is another alternative application of the 2520 years:


The "Desolations of Jerusalem"?


The third siege of Nebuchad-nezzar, in 587 B.C., began the "Desolations of Jerusalem," which lasted until 518 B.C. If August 16, 518 B.C. was the completion of the walls of Jerusalem, then:


-518y 8m 16d
+1 (no year "0")
2483y 9m 21d


1967 6 7


On June 7, 1967, as a result of the Six Day War, the Biblical city of Old Jerusalem was restored to the nation. Another remarkable coincidence!


It should be borne in mind that the "starting" dates are not known precisely to the day. More research needs to be done. But this certainly seems provocative enough to ponder.
 

KJV1611

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Nov 23, 2013
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The hour that "NOW IS" is when Jesus was preaching and people were believing in Him. They passed from death to life when they were converted which you correctly noted. A spiritual resurrection.

The "HOUR IS COMING" is simple to me. The gospel has been preached for 2,000 years and people are being saved. Spiritual resurrection. That "hour" had not come for any of those generations yet. Just like that hour hadn't come for you or me until we were born physically and heard the gospel and believed. Then we were resurrected spiritually. :)
You don’t think the hour that’s coming is the resurrection?

Joh 5:28 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 

delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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You don’t think the hour that’s coming is the resurrection?
Joh 5:28 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
The "hour that is coming" in verse 25 is spiritual resurrection for all who hear the gospel preached throughout the church age and believe. The hour came for you and me when we believed the gospel The "hour that Now is" were those that believed in Jesus when He was preaching.

In verses 28-29 the "hour that is coming" is the general resurrection of the physically dead at the end of time. The context is different from verse 25.

Jesus "executes judgment" (verse 27) the people "come forth from the graves" (verse 28) and there is a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of condemnation" (verse 29). None of those are mentioned in verses 24-25.

If you read the verses carefully verses 24-25 are spiritual resurrection. Verses 27-29 are physical resurrection. The "hour" spans the entire time from the 1st coming of Christ to the 2nd coming of Christ.

Everytime someone hears the gospel and believes it is that "hour" for that person. Spiritual resurrection. But there will be a final "hour" when Christ returns and the dead rise to be judged. Physical resurrection.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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You don’t think the hour that’s coming is the resurrection?

Joh 5:28 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
I think you missed the term "all"....
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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You guys do realize that Jesus went and preached the gospel to ALL the spirits in prison don’t you? They heard the message and lived just like verse 25 says. They heard the voice of the Son of God and lived.

Joh 5:25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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You guys do realize that Jesus went and preached the gospel to ALL the spirits in prison don’t you? They heard the message and lived just like verse 25 says. They heard the voice of the Son of God and lived.

Joh 5:25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

?????? you missed that too ???????