In the days of the 10 Kings God shall assembly his Kingdom

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,003
7,199
113
62
#41
---------------------------------------------------------
We who believe are set apart and will be part of the future kingdom mentioned in Revelations. Remember what he was trying to tell Nicodemus--the question was 'to enter the Kingdom of God'

We certainly aren't living in it now
What do you believe the kingdom of God consists in?

Does a kingdom exist where there is a ruler and subjects who obey, whether by constraint or consent?

Do you consent to the rule of Christ? Do other Christians consent to be ruled by Christ in the present? Do kingdoms only exist in physical locations?
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
1,343
473
83
Pennsylvania
#42
A great point, but we are to cast all our cares upon Him...1 Peter 5:7. Certainly we should in faith trust the great Shepherd of the sheep to provide us the care required, but a moment by moment living in dependency would require giving and receiving. And keeping short accounts with God concerning the debts we accrue as a result of sin would lend itself to frequent, if not, continuous prayer. Who actually tabernacles with the Father and Son as is available according to Jesus in John 14?
----------------------------------
I agree but I know Jesus as the Father
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,003
7,199
113
62
#43
----------------------------------
I agree but I know Jesus as the Father
That's pretty loaded, but we have gone far afield already. I do appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
26,000
14,033
113
#44
You claimed this:

he informed them that he would not receive the kingdom until he returned or until his second coming.
I disagreed and you said this:

That is precisely what he said in the parable.

Luk 19:15
And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,
Here's what verse 16 says in the NIV:

"He was made king, however, and returned home." It doesn't say that he didn't receive his kingdom until he returned home. Even the KJV can be interpreted to mean that he was made king while he was in the far country.

So... I still hold that your assertion is incorrect.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
26,000
14,033
113
#45
---------------------------------------------------------
We who believe are set apart and will be part of the future kingdom mentioned in Revelations. Remember what he was trying to tell Nicodemus--the question was 'to enter the Kingdom of God'

We certainly aren't living in it now
We aren't living in the fullness of it, and won't until this earthly life has ended, but if we are not in it already, then we are not saved.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son

Note that this is done. God has delivered us and transferred us to the eternal kingdom.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
26,000
14,033
113
#46
----------------------------------
I agree but I know Jesus as the Father
Perhaps you should give this verse some thought:

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,356
924
113
#47
Here's what verse 16 says in the NIV:

"He was made king, however, and returned home." It doesn't say that he didn't receive his kingdom until he returned home. Even the KJV can be interpreted to mean that he was made king while he was in the far country.

So... I still hold that your assertion is incorrect.
May I ask at what point in time Jesus received the kingdom during his first coming in your estimation? In other words, was it before the cross or after the cross?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
26,000
14,033
113
#48
May I ask at what point in time Jesus received the kingdom during his first coming in your estimation? In other words, was it before the cross or after the cross?
The kingdom existed before the cross, because it was being announced during His earthly ministry. It becomes a moot point “when” Jesus “inherited” it. Let’s not try to force-fit every detail of the parable to reality.
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,356
924
113
#49
The kingdom existed before the cross, because it was being announced during His earthly ministry.
It was being announced as being "at hand" or near prior to the cross, but this does not necessarily mean that it was already in existence on earth at that time.

Mat 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Would the devil have tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world and their glory if the kingdom of God was already a present reality on this earth?
It becomes a moot point “when” Jesus “inherited” it.
Far from being a moot point, the timing of Jesus' inheritance is of utmost importance. Please consider what he said here.

Mat 21:33
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34
And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36
Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37
But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39
And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40
When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Jesus began this parable by basically reiterating what the prophet Isaiah had written many years earlier.

Isa 5:1
Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Isa 5:2
And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
Isa 5:3
And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
Isa 5:4
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Isa 5:5
And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
Isa 5:6
And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Isa 5:7
For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

In his parable, the vineyard represents the land of Israel, and Jesus identified himself as being "the heir" of the same, or he identified it as being "his inheritance." Prior to his incarnation, Jesus was solely the Creator, so he did not need to "inherit" anything because he was the rightful owner of all things. However, in his incarnation, he humbled himself as a servant, and it was not until he had been crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended back to heaven that he was "appointed heir of all things" (Heb. 1:2). In other words, what Adam, a man, lost through his disobedience, Christ had to regain via his obedience in his humanity by "inheritance." He did not "inherit" the kingdom prior to the cross. Furthermore, we, as "joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17), will not inherit the kingdom until the second coming of Christ.

Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Let’s not try to force-fit every detail of the parable to reality.
There is no need to force-fit anything if we consider the entirety of scripture.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
26,000
14,033
113
#50
It was being announced as being "at hand" or near prior to the cross, but this does not necessarily mean that it was already in existence on earth at that time.
Logically, it most certainly does, as something cannot be “at hand” if it does not already exist. Further, Jesus’ challenge in Luke 11:20 clearly shows that the kingdom had already come.
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,356
924
113
#51
Logically, it most certainly does, as something cannot be “at hand” if it does not already exist.
This is definitely not true. The Greek word engizō is used throughout the New Testament to describe something that is drawing near or approaching. At times, the thing is very close, and, at other times, that thing is yet way off in the future. Here are three examples where engizō is used to describe something way off in the future.

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. G1448

Jas 5:8
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. G1448

1Pe 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: G1448 be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

These were all written almost 2000 years ago, and none of them have come to pass yet.
Further, Jesus’ challenge in Luke 11:20 clearly shows that the kingdom had already come.
I was waiting for somebody to mention this verse. Here it is:

Luk 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

The Greek word epi is translated as "upon" here, but it also has the meaning of "near."

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=epi

epi-

before vowels reduced to ep-, before aspirated vowels eph-, word-forming element meaning "on, upon, above," also "in addition to; toward, among," from Greek epi "upon, at, close upon (in space or time), on the occasion of, in addition," also "after," from PIE *epi, *opi "near, at, against" (source also of Sanskrit api "also, besides;" Avestan aipi "also, to, toward;" Armenian ev "also, and;" Latin ob "toward, against, in the way of;" Oscan op, Greek opi- "behind;" Hittite appizzis "younger;" Lithuanian ap- "about, near;" Old Church Slavonic ob "on"). A productive prefix in Greek; also used in modern scientific compounds (such as epicenter).

In fact, some Bible translations translate epi as "near" or "nigh" in this verse.

Lamsa Bible
But if I cast out devils by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God is come near you.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But if I cast out devils by the finger of God, the Kingdom of God has come near to you.”

Godbey New Testament
but if I through the finger of God cast out the demons, then the kingdom of God has come nigh unto you.

Seeing how different Bible translations translate this word differently, how can we know which is the proper translation?

By comparing what is written here to other verses in the Bible that speak on the same topic.

Again, why did the devil tempt Jesus with the kingdoms of this world if the kingdom of God had already arrived?

Again, why did Jesus instruct his disciples to pray "Thy kingdom come" if it had already come?

Also, you have Jesus receiving his inheritance before his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, and that is not what the Bible teaches.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
26,000
14,033
113
#52
This is definitely not true. The Greek word engizō is used throughout the New Testament to describe something that is drawing near or approaching. At times, the thing is very close, and, at other times, that thing is yet way off in the future. Here are three examples where engizō is used to describe something way off in the future.

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. G1448

Jas 5:8
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. G1448

1Pe 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: G1448 be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

These were all written almost 2000 years ago, and none of them have come to pass yet.
I was waiting for somebody to mention this verse. Here it is:

Luk 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

The Greek word epi is translated as "upon" here, but it also has the meaning of "near."

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=epi

epi-

before vowels reduced to ep-, before aspirated vowels eph-, word-forming element meaning "on, upon, above," also "in addition to; toward, among," from Greek epi "upon, at, close upon (in space or time), on the occasion of, in addition," also "after," from PIE *epi, *opi "near, at, against" (source also of Sanskrit api "also, besides;" Avestan aipi "also, to, toward;" Armenian ev "also, and;" Latin ob "toward, against, in the way of;" Oscan op, Greek opi- "behind;" Hittite appizzis "younger;" Lithuanian ap- "about, near;" Old Church Slavonic ob "on"). A productive prefix in Greek; also used in modern scientific compounds (such as epicenter).

In fact, some Bible translations translate epi as "near" or "nigh" in this verse.

Lamsa Bible
But if I cast out devils by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God is come near you.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But if I cast out devils by the finger of God, the Kingdom of God has come near to you.”

Godbey New Testament
but if I through the finger of God cast out the demons, then the kingdom of God has come nigh unto you.

Seeing how different Bible translations translate this word differently, how can we know which is the proper translation?

By comparing what is written here to other verses in the Bible that speak on the same topic.

Again, why did the devil tempt Jesus with the kingdoms of this world if the kingdom of God had already arrived?

Again, why did Jesus instruct his disciples to pray "Thy kingdom come" if it had already come?

Also, you have Jesus receiving his inheritance before his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, and that is not what the Bible teaches.
No, I "have" Jesus speaking about the kingdom as though it is both physically and temporally present. I don't believe I have said anything about Him having received it, other than in reference to the parable.
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,356
924
113
#53
No, I "have" Jesus speaking about the kingdom as though it is both physically and temporally present. I don't believe I have said anything about Him having received it, other than in reference to the parable.
In any case, my point is that the kingdom of God had not yet come during Jesus' earthly ministry. To this point, at the last supper, Jesus said:

Luk 22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,003
7,199
113
62
#54
In any case, my point is that the kingdom of God had not yet come during Jesus' earthly ministry. To this point, at the last supper, Jesus said:

Luk 22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Whose kingdom was the Garden in before the Fall?

Whose kingdom were Adam and Eve in before the Fall?
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,356
924
113
#55
Whose kingdom was the Garden in before the Fall?

Whose kingdom were Adam and Eve in before the Fall?
You could not bring yourself to simply agree with any of the truths that I have presented here, could you? Try saying "Amen." It will be good for your soul.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,003
7,199
113
62
#56
You could not bring yourself to simply agree with any of the truths that I have presented here, could you? Try saying "Amen." It will be good for your soul.
No need to get snippy. Just asking questions to broaden your perspective.

Personally, I believe the kingdom of God has always existed where people or angels have consented to the rule of God.
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,356
924
113
#57
No need to get snippy.
I am not getting snippy (I am just lying here; nice and relaxed), and my comment was not just based on your questions here. In other words, I know your modus operandi, and it is getting a bit tiring.
Just asking questions to broaden your perspective.
My perspective, which is derived from scripture, begins before the foundation of the world and extends to the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem.
Personally, I believe the kingdom of God has always existed where people or angels have consented to the rule of God.
I would agree, but the topic at hand pertains to the kingdom of God on earth. In other words, the kingdom presently exists in heaven where there is a heavenly Jerusalem, a temple, and a king seated on the throne, but that is not a present reality here on the earth.

Back to your original questions.
Whose kingdom was the Garden in before the Fall?

Whose kingdom were Adam and Eve in before the Fall?
The answer to these questions only confirms what I have been saying here all along.

Luk 4:5
And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6
And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

How/When were all the kingdoms of the world delivered unto the devil?

In my understanding, they were delivered unto him when Adam fell. Seeing how one man, Adam, lost it all in relation to this earth, another man, Jesus Christ, had to gain it all back by inheritance through his obedience.

Does that answer your questions?
 

Squigglylines

Active member
Jul 10, 2024
418
89
28
#58
The Seventh Trumpet
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Rev 17:12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed,

And Revelation 5 which explains the lamb (Lord) had already come and been slain then resurrected then had ascended to Heaven. So regardless of the Revelation being given before ad70 or if in ad96 if the ten kings had received no kingdom yet as the angel says then Daniel 2:44 cannot take place until after the ten kings are given their kingdoms. Revelation 17:12 is in it's self proof to support that Daniel 2:42-44 did not take place before nor at the DBR of Christ as some believe. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 5&version=KJV
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,003
7,199
113
62
#59
I am not getting snippy (I am just lying here; nice and relaxed), and my comment was not just based on your questions here. In other words, I know your modus operandi, and it is getting a bit tiring.
My perspective, which is derived from scripture, begins before the foundation of the world and extends to the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem.
I would agree, but the topic at hand pertains to the kingdom of God on earth. In other words, the kingdom presently exists in heaven where there is a heavenly Jerusalem, a temple, and a king seated on the throne, but that is not a present reality here on the earth.

Back to your original questions.
The answer to these questions only confirms what I have been saying here all along.

Luk 4:5
And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6
And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

How/When were all the kingdoms of the world delivered unto the devil?

In my understanding, they were delivered unto him when Adam fell. Seeing how one man, Adam, lost it all in relation to this earth, another man, Jesus Christ, had to gain it all back by inheritance through his obedience.

Does that answer your questions?
The kingdoms of the world do not represent the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God has no geographical borders nor a particular people group. Just because Satan could give Jesus control of geographic territory doesn't mean he had anything to offer Jesus. Not only will Jesus possess all the geographic area, He will also rule the hearts and minds of all in His kingdom.
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,356
924
113
#60
The kingdoms of the world do not represent the kingdom of God.
You asked me whose kingdom the garden was in before the fall, and whose kingdom Adam and Eve were in before the fall? What is your answer to your own questions? The kingdom of God? If so, then the kingdoms of this world were once the kingdom of God before the fall.
The kingdom of God has no geographical borders nor a particular people group.
When it comes to this earth, which is what we have been discussing, then geography will be in play, and so will a particular people group when it is fully established.
Just because Satan could give Jesus control of geographic territory doesn't mean he had anything to offer Jesus.
So, are you saying that his temptation was not really a temptation?
Not only will Jesus possess all the geographic area, He will also rule the hearts and minds of all in His kingdom.
Actually, he will not. Jesus' kingdom rule will only last 1000 years upon this earth. At the end of the 1000 years, the angels will gather the wicked out of his kingdom, and they will be thrown into the lake of fire. After this, Jesus will deliver the kingdom up to his Father.