Interpreting Divine Scripture.

[Scotth1960]

when jesus said, seek and you will find, what does he mean to you? if it is true what you said. quote,
all scr, are not to be interprated by no man. than we would have no need for bible. this is what those
olden days roman church tell the followers, only the pope can have a bible and interprsted.
i know where you are coming from. and where you are going, into darkness.

Dear wakeup, I would suggest you be a bit more charitable than that. Cookie was just expressing an opinion, not judging you. I don't judge anyone, I would not say you are in darkness, nor that cookie is in darkness either. You just disagree on some point of doctrine. Can't we all just get along? God bless you! God bless cookie. Always with love for Christ, Scott Harrington

 

[VW]

when jesus said, seek and you will find, what does he mean to you? if it is true what you said. quote,
all scr, are not to be interprated by no man. than we would have no need for bible. this is what those
olden days roman church tell the followers, only the pope can have a bible and interprsted.
i know where you are coming from. and where you are going, into darkness.

That whole effort was to control the interpretation of scripture, to make everyone have the same understanding, one approved by those who were in power in the church. That was the source of the darkness.

 

[wakeup]

the 10 commandments in its original form:

exodus ch. 20.
verse 2 .i am the lord thy GOD,wich have brout the out of the land of egypt,
out of the land of bondage
verse 3. thou shall have no other gods before me .
verse 4. thou shall not make unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of ANYTHING
that is in heaven above ,or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the waters under the earth
verse 5. thou shall not bow down thy self to them, nor serve them :
for i the lord thy GOD am a jealous GOD ,visiting the iniquity of the fathers op on the children,
unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

THIS IS THE ORIGINAL 10 COM. BEFORE IT WAS DOCTERED AND TAMPERED WITH BY
CERTAIN PEOPLE , HOW CAN ONE FOLLOW AN ESTABLISHMENT THAT HAS ITS ROOTS
CORUPTED FROM THE FOUNDATION? THIS ONLY SHOWS THE POWER OF WICKIDNESS
OF THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD. WAKE UP YOU PEOPLE OPEN YOUR EYES.
COME BACK TO THE 10 COM. WICH GOD GAVE TO MOSES BUT NOT WRITTEN IN
STONE BUT IN YOUR HEART. WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT FOR GOD IS SPIRIT AND HE
SEEKS THOSE THAT WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRITAND TRUTH. JOHN4:24.
WE MUST NOT WORSHIP GOD WITH OUR EYES, BY OUR BEAUTIFULL ART WORKS AND
TRADITIONS. IT ONLY WATER DOWN THE TRUTH, SEEK GOD WITH YOUR HEART.
NOT WITH YOUR EYES. FEDD YOUR SELFES WITH THE FLESH OF CHRIST WICH GIVE
ETERNAL LIFE, DONT JUST SEEK BREAD THAT DOES NOT GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
TO WORSHIP GOD IN TRUTH OR NOT IN TRUTH IS LIKE GAINING LIFE OR DEATH.

 

[Scotth1960]

That whole effort was to control the interpretation of scripture, to make everyone have the same understanding, one approved by those who were in power in the church. That was the source of the darkness.

Dear W. Papal Rome over the centuries eventually tried to have so much power over the entire Church it lead to a great schism in 1054 AD. Ostensibly it was over Rome's interpretation of Scripture, but that was a kind of ruse. It was about the alleged rights and privileges of Rome only, with little consideration for the rights and feelings of the whole rest of the Church, the other 4 patriarchates, which had always been fully equal with Rome. Rome wanted to be master over the whole Church. Go figure. So now the whole Western Church, including most of the Protestants, lives in the darkness of FILIOQUE, and says, who proceeds from the Father "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE). Go figure: versus John 15:26. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[VW]

Dear W. Papal Rome over the centuries eventually tried to have so much power over the entire Church it lead to a great schism in 1054 AD. Ostensibly it was over Rome's interpretation of Scripture, but that was a kind of ruse. It was about the alleged rights and privileges of Rome only, with little consideration for the rights and feelings of the whole rest of the Church, the other 4 patriarchates, which had always been fully equal with Rome. Rome wanted to be master over the whole Church. Go figure. So now the whole Western Church, including most of the Protestants, lives in the darkness of FILIOQUE, and says, who proceeds from the Father "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE). Go figure: versus John 15:26. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

The leaders of the church, catholic or any other church, when they decide that they have a right to the place that they hold, begin to hold truth to themselves, that is, they have a divine right to dispense the truth, and any other source of truth is suspect at best, false and misleading and demonic at worst. This is the source of the darkness. Men are not holders of the truth, and can at best barely see the truth, and then only if God opens their eyes and ears. The trouble is not that we have religion, but that we allow religion to have a place in our relationship with God. Children do not need intermediaries with their Father.

 

[Scotth1960]

The leaders of the church, catholic or any other church, when they decide that they have a right to the place that they hold, begin to hold truth to themselves, that is, they have a divine right to dispense the truth, and any other source of truth is suspect at best, false and misleading and demonic at worst. This is the source of the darkness. Men are not holders of the truth, and can at best barely see the truth, and then only if God opens their eyes and ears. The trouble is not that we have religion, but that we allow religion to have a place in our relationship with God. Children do not need intermediaries with their Father.

Dear VW, So, "if children do not need intermediaries with their Father", do you need the intermediary testimony of the NT. St. Paul was an intermediary between you and God in writing most of the NT. And of course we believe Christ is our intermediary (Mediator) with God the Father, don't we? If you follow your logic of rejecting interpreters of the NT, you should reject the NT itself, as it is an interpretation of God's will, and not just God speaking directly to your heart. It is mediated through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which came not to every follower of Christ, but only the Apostles who wrote the NT. Of course, the other Apostles who did not write the NT, such as St. Andrew, St. Thomas, St. Barnabas, St. Bartholomew, and so on, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel correctly. They just didn't write any NT books. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Men of God are bearers of the truth of God. According to I John, they beheld the Truth, they beheld Jesus with their own eyes. They knew Who they believed in. God opened their hearts to Him. The 12 Apostles all knew and saw the truth.

 

[Zossima]

PBUH: enough of the games you are playing with the text: the seven pronouns you are counting are only in the English and not in the original Greek; the pronouns are implied by the verbs and more correctly would be "it" rather than "he" because pneuma (spirit) is a neuter word in Greek.
NEXT: in order to make parakletos refer to Muhammad, Muslims typically say the word should be pariclytos (a different Greek word entirely) and that the NT text is corrupt. Well, unless God has changed, if the NT text has been corrupted with error, then the Quran is just as corrupted. It is totally illogical to claim that one inspired text is corrupt and another isn't except as a means to twist the earlier text to mean something different.
ALSO: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter because it was said of the Comforter "that He may be with you forever" (John 14:16). Last time I checked, Islam records the death of Muhammad. Then there is the fact that Jesus said to His disciples "He abides with you"; how could Muhammad abide with them centuries before he was born?
LAST: Parakletos is used in reference to three persons in the Bible, not just one: Jesus promised, "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you ANOTHER Comforter"; "another" necessarily implies one or more other comforters. There is the Holy Spirit: John 14:16, 26, et al; Jesus: 1 John 2:1; and the Father: Lamentations 1:16 [LXX], Jeremiah 38:9 [LXX].
PBUH: this is a CHRISTIAN site, not Muslim. It would be gracious on your part if you would share your thoughts with fellow Muslims rather than using this site as a means for proselytizing for Islam. Islam and Christianity are two distinct religions whether you will accept it or not.

the sinner, Zossima

 

[VW]

Scotth1960;387726]Dear VW, So, "if children do not need intermediaries with their Father", do you need the intermediary testimony of the NT. St. Paul was an intermediary between you and God in writing most of the NT. And of course we believe Christ is our intermediary (Mediator) with God the Father, don't we? If you follow your logic of rejecting interpreters of the NT, you should reject the NT itself, as it is an interpretation of God's will, and not just God speaking directly to your heart. It is mediated through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which came not to every follower of Christ, but only the Apostles who wrote the NT. Of course, the other Apostles who did not write the NT, such as St. Andrew, St. Thomas, St. Barnabas, St. Bartholomew, and so on, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel correctly. They just didn't write any NT books. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Men of God are bearers of the truth of God. According to I John, they beheld the Truth, they beheld Jesus with their own eyes. They knew Who they believed in. God opened their hearts to Him. The 12 Apostles all knew and saw the truth.

That your faith rest not on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

I wonder when you will see the truth?

 

[Scotth1960]

That your faith rest not on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

I wonder when you will see the truth?

The Christian faith relies not on the wisdom of men, but the power of God in the lives of the 12 Apostles and other early Christian ministers of the Church. The Lord chose 12 men not as overlords or masters over the rest of the church, but as servants and stewards of God's grace. He gave them the Holy Spirit, and the power to preach the true Gospel. He revealed the truth directly through them, and it was through them the Gospels were written. It was not to everyone directly, but to the apostles of the Church. There was a hierarchy, a priesthood, then, even as there is a priesthood now. These men were chosen by Christ as servants of the laity, of the rest of the church. He gave them the task of administering the mysteries (sacraments) of His Church (cf. Matthew 28:19, etc.). Take care. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[VW]

The Christian faith relies not on the wisdom of men, but the power of God in the lives of the 12 Apostles and other early Christian ministers of the Church. The Lord chose 12 men not as overlords or masters over the rest of the church, but as servants and stewards of God's grace. He gave them the Holy Spirit, and the power to preach the true Gospel. He revealed the truth directly through them, and it was through them the Gospels were written. It was not to everyone directly, but to the apostles of the Church. There was a hierarchy, a priesthood, then, even as there is a priesthood now. These men were chosen by Christ as servants of the laity, of the rest of the church. He gave them the task of administering the mysteries (sacraments) of His Church (cf. Matthew 28:19, etc.). Take care. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

What you are showing is faith twice removed. Paul was not speaking to people who would write the new testament when he spoke of how he testified of God's salvation. He was writing to a simple church. (Well, maybe not so simple, but ordinary people all the same.)

What I am showing is a faith which rests on the power of God, today. You would have us believe in what God did all those years ago, in and through the apostles, believing that He will not do these things today. What things? Come into the life of each believer, giving them each the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of eternal life by birth of the Spirit and by the Spirit, life from above.

One is dead, speaking of what has come before. One is alive, because the power of God is its constant source, yesterday, today, and forever. Which one do you believe Paul testified of?

 

[VW]

I find it incredible that teachings based on scripture, which scripture is from and of God, denies the power of God in the life of the believer.

 

[Scotth1960]

What you are showing is faith twice removed. Paul was not speaking to people who would write the new testament when he spoke of how he testified of God's salvation. He was writing to a simple church. (Well, maybe not so simple, but ordinary people all the same.)

What I am showing is a faith which rests on the power of God, today. You would have us believe in what God did all those years ago, in and through the apostles, believing that He will not do these things today. What things? Come into the life of each believer, giving them each the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of eternal life by birth of the Spirit and by the Spirit, life from above.

One is dead, speaking of what has come before. One is alive, because the power of God is its constant source, yesterday, today, and forever. Which one do you believe Paul testified of?

Dear VW, Of course God will work in the life of every Christian believer today. He will do so in the way He ordains. It is merely a question of how God chooses to work. He set up not a book or an individual alone by himself receiving direct revelations from the Holy Spirit apart from the New Testament, but in a Church (1 Tim. 3:15) that gave us all, that gave Christians, the word of God, the Bible. The Bible belongs in the Church, and Christians belong in the Church which wrote the Bible. Yes, it was a simple church, of Jews and a few Gentiles, whose common language was originally Greek. This Church was originally not English-speaking, but Greek-speaking. It didn't come directly from the KJV translators, but from the Apostles who wrote in Greek. So it is a question of ecclesiology. People with a false ecclesiology that thinks it is one of several thousand 30,000 or more man-made denominations, or separate individuals, is Christ's Church, are mistaken. By ourselves, we cannot understand the Bible or obtain the Holy Spirit. We need the Body of Christ, the Church. By one Spirit we are to be baptized into One Body, the Church that Christ founded. ... Of course, people today some of them do not comprehend or know what this church is or where it may be found in their local cities. But it is the one holy catholic and apostolic church of the Creed. And the Creed that does not include the heretical words "and the Son", in opposition to John 15:26. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews), and so Christ's Orthodox Church is the same yesterday and today and forever. Take care. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[PBUH]

Hi Zossima

Muhammad cannot be the Comforter because it was said of the Comforter "that He may be with you forever" (John 14:16). Last time I checked, Islam records the death of Muhammad. Then there is the fact that Jesus said to His disciples "He abides with you"; how could Muhammad abide with them centuries before he was born?

What is meant by forever in this verse ?

Lets look where else forever is used.

"and my servant David [shall be] their prince forever." (Ezekiel 37:25).

This does not mean that David will be immortal and live for ever. It means that his teaching will remain behind forever.

The Quran which is the Word of God and the teachings of the prophet pbuh will remain forever.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you ANOTHER Comforter"; "another" necessarily implies one or more other comforters. There is the Holy Spirit

So there are more than one Holy spirit ?

Jesus pbuh is a prophet. He is stating another prophet will come after I go. The Spirit in the Spirit of truth is the biblical term for prophet. Muhammad pbuh was referred to as the trustworthy and truthful.

in order to make parakletos refer to Muhammad, Muslims typically say the word should be pariclytos (a different Greek word entirely) and that the NT text is corrupt. Well, unless God has changed, if the NT text has been corrupted with error, then the Quran is just as corrupted. It is totally illogical to claim that one inspired text is corrupt and another isn't except as a means to twist the earlier text to mean something different.

The New International Version has translated it to its correct translation. Spirit of Truth. As stated earlier prophet Muhammad pbuh was referred to as truthful even by his enemies.

John
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

The comforter can not be the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit never went away.

The Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[Scotth1960]

[quote=PBUH;388132]Hi Zossima



What is meant by forever in this verse ?

Lets look where else forever is used.

"and my servant David [shall be] their prince forever." (Ezekiel 37:25).

This does not mean that David will be immortal and live for ever. It means that his teaching will remain behind forever.

The Quran which is the Word of God and the teachings of the prophet pbuh will remain forever.



So there are more than one Holy spirit ?

Jesus pbuh is a prophet. He is stating another prophet will come after I go. The Spirit in the Spirit of truth is the biblical term for prophet. Muhammad pbuh was referred to as the trustworthy and truthful.



The New International Version has translated it to its correct translation. Spirit of Truth. As stated earlier prophet Muhammad pbuh was referred to as truthful even by his enemies.

John
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

The comforter can not be the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit never went away.

The Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). [/quote]

Dear PBUH, The role of the Holy Spirit, that is, God, the Comforter, is to testify to Jesus Christ as LORD GOD and Saviour. His role is to bring us to Jesus Christ (John 15:26-27), and to witness to Jesus Christ, through His Church. It is not the Holy Spirit's role to testify to another prophet, because the Holy Spirit is God, not Muhammad. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, in John's Gospel, is none other than God Himself. It is not a prophesy of Muhammad. The revelation and word of God is closed and completed with the last words of the book of Revelation, chapter 22. After that, no more holy Scriptures, no more books directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Only human writings which comment on the Scriptures, and these are inspired only indirectly, and may contain a mixture of truth and errors. Someone who is not in error will come along and correct a heretic. Someone will be a God-bearer, and inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach the truth revealed by the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). This prophecy of Scripture regarding the Holy Spirit refers to God Himself. See Acts, chapter 5. To lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to God Himself, as the Holy Spirit is God. Muhammad is not the Holy Spirit, is not the Comforter. In America, Scott

 

[VW]

Dear VW, Of course God will work in the life of every Christian believer today. He will do so in the way He ordains. It is merely a question of how God chooses to work. He set up not a book or an individual alone by himself receiving direct revelations from the Holy Spirit apart from the New Testament, but in a Church (1 Tim. 3:15) that gave us all, that gave Christians, the word of God, the Bible. The Bible belongs in the Church, and Christians belong in the Church which wrote the Bible. Yes, it was a simple church, of Jews and a few Gentiles, whose common language was originally Greek. This Church was originally not English-speaking, but Greek-speaking. It didn't come directly from the KJV translators, but from the Apostles who wrote in Greek. So it is a question of ecclesiology. People with a false ecclesiology that thinks it is one of several thousand 30,000 or more man-made denominations, or separate individuals, is Christ's Church, are mistaken. By ourselves, we cannot understand the Bible or obtain the Holy Spirit. We need the Body of Christ, the Church. By one Spirit we are to be baptized into One Body, the Church that Christ founded. ... Of course, people today some of them do not comprehend or know what this church is or where it may be found in their local cities. But it is the one holy catholic and apostolic church of the Creed. And the Creed that does not include the heretical words "and the Son", in opposition to John 15:26. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews), and so Christ's Orthodox Church is the same yesterday and today and forever. Take care. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I hear what you are saying, I really do. But I ask this question; does one join the church to receive the Spirit, or does one become a member of the church when they receive the Spirit?

It comes down to this simple statement; by the Spirit I have been made a part of the church, a member of the bride, a member of the body of Christ. God did it to and in me, by His Spirit. If it was through the church, then it was by the Spirit working through her. If it was by the bible, then it was by the Spirit working through it. In my case, it was through a book written by a world renowned pastor, the Spirit opening my eyes to my need and to His supply through the Spirit. (I was amrespectedmchurch member at the time, but I was not a member of the "church" until I was crucified with Jesus to my old life.)

There is a human need to have something tangible to place our faith in, to point to as being the standard by which we should live. But I believe that living in Jesus is not intended to be along these lines. I believe that we are called as children of the living God, to be brought into His family, as His children. And that as such, He treats each of us as beloved children, pleasing in His sight, because of who and what we are, that is, the born children of God. And He is most pleased with us when we live in the resurrection life of Jesus Christ. The only way to do so is to die with and in Him on the cross. (The word of the cross is the power of God to us who are being saved.)

If the church controls the working of the Spirit, or if she claims that He only works through her, then she has lost her anointing. God will not be dictated to. The Spirit moves as He desires, just as Jesus said. It would seem to be nice and orderly if He only moved in predictable ways, then we could say with human certainty that this is of the Spirit and that is not. But that is not God's way.

We need the Spirit to know what is of the Spirit. At times, we become so set in our ways, so certain in our judgment of right and wrong, that we no longer rely on the Spirit's discernment. And that is when He does things that are outside of our standards, to get us to open up to His working again.

My message is not my own, but what I have heard. I did not choose to be so in opposition to what is accepted today by the majority of the church. But I find myself in this position, and after much prayer and searching of His face, I am convinced that I am speaking His words. Otherwise, I would not open my mouth.

I know that what I say is not easy to hear. It goes against almost everything that we have placed our faith in. I am cognizant of this, despite appearances otherwise. I know that what I say is disagreeable. For this I apologize. I still have to say it.

In Christ,
vic

 

[Scotth1960]

I hear what you are saying, I really do. But I ask this question; does one join the church to receive the Spirit, or does one become a member of the church when they receive the Spirit?

It comes down to this simple statement; by the Spirit I have been made a part of the church, a member of the bride, a member of the body of Christ. God did it to and in me, by His Spirit. If it was through the church, then it was by the Spirit working through her. If it was by the bible, then it was by the Spirit working through it. In my case, it was through a book written by a world renowned pastor, the Spirit opening my eyes to my need and to His supply through the Spirit. (I was amrespectedmchurch member at the time, but I was not a member of the "church" until I was crucified with Jesus to my old life.)

There is a human need to have something tangible to place our faith in, to point to as being the standard by which we should live. But I believe that living in Jesus is not intended to be along these lines. I believe that we are called as children of the living God, to be brought into His family, as His children. And that as such, He treats each of us as beloved children, pleasing in His sight, because of who and what we are, that is, the born children of God. And He is most pleased with us when we live in the resurrection life of Jesus Christ. The only way to do so is to die with and in Him on the cross. (The word of the cross is the power of God to us who are being saved.)

If the church controls the working of the Spirit, or if she claims that He only works through her, then she has lost her anointing. God will not be dictated to. The Spirit moves as He desires, just as Jesus said. It would seem to be nice and orderly if He only moved in predictable ways, then we could say with human certainty that this is of the Spirit and that is not. But that is not God's way.

We need the Spirit to know what is of the Spirit. At times, we become so set in our ways, so certain in our judgment of right and wrong, that we no longer rely on the Spirit's discernment. And that is when He does things that are outside of our standards, to get us to open up to His working again.

My message is not my own, but what I have heard. I did not choose to be so in opposition to what is accepted today by the majority of the church. But I find myself in this position, and after much prayer and searching of His face, I am convinced that I am speaking His words. Otherwise, I would not open my mouth.

I know that what I say is not easy to hear. It goes against almost everything that we have placed our faith in. I am cognizant of this, despite appearances otherwise. I know that what I say is disagreeable. For this I apologize. I still have to say it.

In Christ,
vic

Dear vic, Following up what is intended by my original source (Synaxis Press, Canadian Orthodox Publishing House), here is the truth. We need the Church to know what is of the Spirit, because the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15), and the Church is a visible Body of Christ founded upon the Faith in Christ, most certainly expressed in the words of St. Peter to Christ, for which Christ said Peter is blessed, and upon St. Peter's Faith in Christ, He would found His Church (Matthew 16:18).

To continue this book on the proper interpretation of Divine Scripture:
"GRACE AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE CHURCH A. General
"1. The salvation of the sinner is accomplished from two sides: on the part of the person himself through repentance (Luke 15:18-19) and living in the renewed life (Rom. 6:4), and on the part of God, by mercy and Grace (Eph. 2:8). 2. Grace is the name given to God's gifts, or rather, to the invisible, uncreated energies of God which preserve the whole visible world and man, and which directs them toward the final aim of their existence.
"Grace is seen in various aspects by man. For example, man senses "providential Grace' which governs the life and movements of the whole world, preserving it from self-destruction and annihilation (Psalm 64:9-13; 103:27-30); and man feels Grace drawing him toward salvation (Gal. 1:15-16; 1 Cor. 12:12). 3. God's Grace is dispensed to believers from the Holy Spirit, through the apostles and their successors (1 Cor. 4:1). The Holy Spirit also bestows certain "gifts" directly upon certain faithful and obedient children of the Holy Church, giving to each one what is proper and fitting (1 Cor. 12:4-11). Grace is given to the faithful through the Holy Mysteries. 4. The Holy Mysteries of the Church bring the faithful into union with God's Grace in various aspects. We often describe this action by saying that the "gifts of Grace are dispensed through the Holy Mysteries". Baptism, for example, grants remission of the sinful state of the fallen nature with which we are born; Anointing with consecrated oil heals one of spiritual and physical illness James 5:14-15); Holy Communion brings on into unity with Christ (John 6:56); Marriage sanctifies the union of two people and makes them one in God (Eph. 5:31-32).
5. It is the commandment of God's word that no one except the apostles and their successors take upon themselves the celebration of the Holy Mysteries (Heb. 5:1-4). "The Holy Spirit designated only lawful successors of the apostles "to feed the flock of the Lord" (Acts 20:28)." [pages 19-20: The Point of Faith Handbook, Point of Faith Number 1. Synaxis Press, The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, 37323 Hawkins Rd., Dewdney, BC, V0M-1H0 Canada.
Some may be saved by Christ outside the Church, for God can and will save all whom He wills to save, and He will keep no one from receiving salvation by Him whom He wills to save. And at the same time, "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus", There is no salvation outside of the Church. Those outside of the Church must be in some sense in the Church, even if this is a mystery own known only to God, how this is so. Even so, all all called to come into the Church to be saved. That is God's perfect will.
See: Barnes, Patrick. (1999). The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Church. "The Non-Orthodox" is a compassionate yet traditional study of the Orthodox teaching that an individual's salvation is in the hands of God alone but that the Orthodox Church is indeed the only body on earth that can legitimately claim to be "the Church of the Apostles and the Ark of salvation". This is the perfect book for Orthodox group study and for everyone who wants to know what the Church teaches about those outside the Church who confess the name of Christ. ...." Regina Orthodox Press, PO Box 5288, Salisbury, MA 01952 Regina Orthodox Press Online Store
Of course a Christian can be saved outside of the Church, but of course Christ wants to save a Christian inside of His Church. May God give all people a great opportunity to come into the Church, to find Christ in His Church. Amen.
In hope of Christ's mercy, In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Friends, Here is a reading on "interpreting divine Scripture".

"1. Reading the Divine Scripture is salutary for one only if one reads it with reverence and turn to the God-bearing fathers of the Church for interpretation (2 Pet. 3:16). ...
"3. It is absolutely necessary for the Scripture to be read in context, set out with parallels. This is a major deficiency of the Protestant religion: that it takes Christian Scripture out of context, using often highly incorrect translations to begin with, separating it from its original meaning, and forcing preconceived notions or ideas upon it.
4. In order to avoid errors, one ought to verify one's understanding of Scripture with people whom the Lord has placed in the Church to teach (Eph. 4:11-12). If some passage is difficult to understand, make a note of it and ask your parish presbyter to explain it whenever possible. The Scripture does not make it compulsory that everyone understand everything (1 Cor. 14:38). The Scripture itself refers to the impossibility of everyone quickly understanding it (Wisdom 3:21; Wisdom 38:24-25)." [pages 13-14:The Point of Faith Handboook. Point of Faith Number 1. Synaxis Press, The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, 37323 Hawkins Rd. Dewdney, BC V0M-1H0, Canada.].

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Dear friends, My purpose in quoting this source is that if we even attempt to want to attempt to understand Scripture, we must consult Orthodox Christians, and ask them what is signified and meant by the various NT (and OT too!) Scriptures. Grace is available to all Christians, but this grace comes especially through with and in the Orthodox Church. Indeed, "The Orthodox view of Grace is quite distinct from that of the West, especially as developed by Scholastics from seeds in the theology of the Blessed Augustine." (page 9: THE NON-ORTHODOX: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church. by Patrick Barnes. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Press, 1999.).

God save us. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[VW]

Dear vic, Following up what is intended by my original source (Synaxis Press, Canadian Orthodox Publishing House), here is the truth. We need the Church to know what is of the Spirit, because the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15), and the Church is a visible Body of Christ founded upon the Faith in Christ, most certainly expressed in the words of St. Peter to Christ, for which Christ said Peter is blessed, and upon St. Peter's Faith in Christ, He would found His Church (Matthew 16:18).

To continue this book on the proper interpretation of Divine Scripture:
"GRACE AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE CHURCH A. General
"1. The salvation of the sinner is accomplished from two sides: on the part of the person himself through repentance (Luke 15:18-19) and living in the renewed life (Rom. 6:4), and on the part of God, by mercy and Grace (Eph. 2:8). 2. Grace is the name given to God's gifts, or rather, to the invisible, uncreated energies of God which preserve the whole visible world and man, and which directs them toward the final aim of their existence.
"Grace is seen in various aspects by man. For example, man senses "providential Grace' which governs the life and movements of the whole world, preserving it from self-destruction and annihilation (Psalm 64:9-13; 103:27-30); and man feels Grace drawing him toward salvation (Gal. 1:15-16; 1 Cor. 12:12). 3. God's Grace is dispensed to believers from the Holy Spirit, through the apostles and their successors (1 Cor. 4:1). The Holy Spirit also bestows certain "gifts" directly upon certain faithful and obedient children of the Holy Church, giving to each one what is proper and fitting (1 Cor. 12:4-11). Grace is given to the faithful through the Holy Mysteries. 4. The Holy Mysteries of the Church bring the faithful into union with God's Grace in various aspects. We often describe this action by saying that the "gifts of Grace are dispensed through the Holy Mysteries". Baptism, for example, grants remission of the sinful state of the fallen nature with which we are born; Anointing with consecrated oil heals one of spiritual and physical illness James 5:14-15); Holy Communion brings on into unity with Christ (John 6:56); Marriage sanctifies the union of two people and makes them one in God (Eph. 5:31-32).
5. It is the commandment of God's word that no one except the apostles and their successors take upon themselves the celebration of the Holy Mysteries (Heb. 5:1-4). "The Holy Spirit designated only lawful successors of the apostles "to feed the flock of the Lord" (Acts 20:28)." [pages 19-20: The Point of Faith Handbook, Point of Faith Number 1. Synaxis Press, The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, 37323 Hawkins Rd., Dewdney, BC, V0M-1H0 Canada.
Some may be saved by Christ outside the Church, for God can and will save all whom He wills to save, and He will keep no one from receiving salvation by Him whom He wills to save. And at the same time, "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus", There is no salvation outside of the Church. Those outside of the Church must be in some sense in the Church, even if this is a mystery own known only to God, how this is so. Even so, all all called to come into the Church to be saved. That is God's perfect will.
See: Barnes, Patrick. (1999). The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Church. "The Non-Orthodox" is a compassionate yet traditional study of the Orthodox teaching that an individual's salvation is in the hands of God alone but that the Orthodox Church is indeed the only body on earth that can legitimately claim to be "the Church of the Apostles and the Ark of salvation". This is the perfect book for Orthodox group study and for everyone who wants to know what the Church teaches about those outside the Church who confess the name of Christ. ...." Regina Orthodox Press, PO Box 5288, Salisbury, MA 01952 Regina Orthodox Press Online Store
Of course a Christian can be saved outside of the Church, but of course Christ wants to save a Christian inside of His Church. May God give all people a great opportunity to come into the Church, to find Christ in His Church. Amen.
In hope of Christ's mercy, In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

That is nice, but what do we do when the church denies the power of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Scotth1960]

That is nice, but what do we do when the church denies the power of the Holy Spirit?

Impossible. I suppose it depends on what "you" mean by "the church". The Church is a new creation in Christ, by the Holy Spirit. But not everything attributed to the power of the Spirit comes from the Spirit. It depends on who is being honest and preaching the truth. I would say the charismatic renewal is somewhat suspect in my experience, and it did not follow the Scriptures but a distorted view of Acts and the 12 and 14 chapters of 1 Corinthians. Scott in Erie

 

[VW]

Impossible. I suppose it depends on what "you" mean by "the church". The Church is a new creation in Christ, by the Holy Spirit. But not everything attributed to the power of the Spirit comes from the Spirit. It depends on who is being honest and preaching the truth. I would say the charismatic renewal is somewhat suspect in my experience, and it did not follow the Scriptures but a distorted view of Acts and the 12 and 14 chapters of 1 Corinthians. Scott in Erie

Well, I guess you would have to say that the church is the body of people who claim to believe in Jesus Christ and claim His salvation as their own.

As far as charismatics is concerned, I did not even address that, and I consider this to be one of the minor things that the Spirit does.

What I was asking about is the trend to deny the power of the Spirit to control the body of Christ.