When God gives you an ear for the truth, when you hear it you know that it has come from God. You embrace it and let it dwell richly in your heart like it says in (Col 3:16). That truth will always minister something about Christ and it give us life. Through that truth we get to know Him a little better and we are thankful in our heart. It's all about knowing Him and the fact that we belong to Him. We should never lose our child-like faith as we keep ourselves in the love God.
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C
Yeah, we can't have that. Above all else, Jesus must bow to the Apostle Paul. If the two of them said or did something contradictory, always side with Paul, right?
I'll repost my previous explanation to this argument.
However, I think you may have a point with the Paul thing, But please also consider this...
Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
You see, Paul himself understood that he was not infallible. If he made himself the spiritual father over someone, (i.e. taking the place of God) then that makes Paul wrong, not Jesus.
[back to present post] Are you able to accept that Paul made a mistake by making himself the spiritual father over others and NOT that he was creating a justification for you to disobey "call no man on Earth father?"
Good question, Scott. Why all the fuss? You see, I'm just pointing out a direct command from our Lord and saviour, word for word, and suggesting that maybe we should just do what he told us to do.
So why all the fuss? I asked you a couple times before to explain what your personal aversion is to just taking this teaching as it is actually presented from Jesus. Why not just do what he said and call no man father? What reason do you have for NOT following this command as it's written. Surely it must be an extremely important reason for you to make so much fuss over one little word...
If Jesus said not to do it, and Paul did it anyway was he obeying Christ? How sure are we that you are not attributing some kind of god-like status to Paul, simply becase he was an "early father"? Was it possible for Paul to make a mistake? Why else would he warn people NOT to follow him in areas where he followed a gospel other than what Christ preached?
It seems Paul himself was aware of this tendency for people to use his mistakes as justification for rebellion, on the basis that he had such a great relationship with God that his mistakes could not possibly be mistakes.
Your efforts to use his example of making himself the spiritual father over others as justification for arguing that Jesus didn't really mean what he said looks like a classic example of this behavior.
Because my Lord told me that I should not be called master (Mr. is a shortened form of master and means the exact same thing).
You really don't seem to be hearing any of what Jesus was saying in those verses ,do you scott? I really think this is going beyond just a simple disagreement with you. It's like there is this stubbornness in you that simply will not do as your told on this issue. I know that words like submission and obedience are not very popular words these days, but really scott, are you able to be commanded by your god?
He said don't do it. We have had SEVERAL exchanges on this and I've quoted the verses at least 5 times now and yet you STILL come up with this thing about how I should call my self master as though it's the most ridiculous thing you've heard of that I have NOT done so.
Can anyone else see what's happening here? I know it seems like such a small thing i.e call no man father, but the bigger picture is obedience. If we are faithful in the little things then we will be faithful in the bigger things, and the opposite is true, too. That being the case, this really is not the "no big deal" that scott makes it out to be.
Now, on to your other comments about work, which really does seem to more of a reaction to comments I've made about money on other posts rather than genuine discussion.
You are right. Jesus said that we will love one and hate the other and that we cannot work for God and money at the same time. Matthew 6:24.
Which one do you hate, scott? See, it's not about working vs not working, it's about WHO we work for.
Of course it did. Remember when Jesus said "come to me all you who are weary, and I will give you sabbath?" We don't come to Jesus one day out of the week.
Unless, that is what you are getting at? 6 days out of the week you work for money and then 1 day out of the week you seek FIRST the kingdom of heaven? There IS a reason why he used the word first when referring to seeking the kingdom of heaven, scott. Wanna take a guess as to why that is?
It was their only job, scott. The scriptures very clearly say that forsook their jobs to follow Jesus, traveling around from town to town. Can you see how your "jesus didn't really mean that" arguments with something as clear as "call no man on earth father" have also spread to other areas like seeking gods kingdom first? It's like you view every discipline of Jesus through these "he didn't really mean that" glasses. Why not stop justifying some OTHER way of doing what Jesus did and just do what he actually did?
I don't understand it either. He quit one job and started another. The only difference is that he did his new job for free, just because he wanted to help others. Are you suggesting, scott, that people who help others for free are bums because they don't demand payment in exchange for their help? That is certainly what it looks like.
Good idea. I strongly suggest you go back to the 4 gospels and ignore everything about prophecy or salvation, and just get stuck into looking at what it is that Jesus told his followers to actually or NOT to do. Seriously scott, I don't know how any christian can take all your arguments about prophecy seriously when you've very clearly got issues with some of the most basic teachings of Jesus. You really need to get back to the cornerstone and I don't mean that as some petty pot shot at your spirituality.
I'll repost my previous explanation to this argument.
However, I think you may have a point with the Paul thing, But please also consider this...
Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
You see, Paul himself understood that he was not infallible. If he made himself the spiritual father over someone, (i.e. taking the place of God) then that makes Paul wrong, not Jesus.
[back to present post] Are you able to accept that Paul made a mistake by making himself the spiritual father over others and NOT that he was creating a justification for you to disobey "call no man on Earth father?"
Good question, Scott. Why all the fuss? You see, I'm just pointing out a direct command from our Lord and saviour, word for word, and suggesting that maybe we should just do what he told us to do.
So why all the fuss? I asked you a couple times before to explain what your personal aversion is to just taking this teaching as it is actually presented from Jesus. Why not just do what he said and call no man father? What reason do you have for NOT following this command as it's written. Surely it must be an extremely important reason for you to make so much fuss over one little word...
If Jesus said not to do it, and Paul did it anyway was he obeying Christ? How sure are we that you are not attributing some kind of god-like status to Paul, simply becase he was an "early father"? Was it possible for Paul to make a mistake? Why else would he warn people NOT to follow him in areas where he followed a gospel other than what Christ preached?
It seems Paul himself was aware of this tendency for people to use his mistakes as justification for rebellion, on the basis that he had such a great relationship with God that his mistakes could not possibly be mistakes.
Your efforts to use his example of making himself the spiritual father over others as justification for arguing that Jesus didn't really mean what he said looks like a classic example of this behavior.
Because my Lord told me that I should not be called master (Mr. is a shortened form of master and means the exact same thing).
You really don't seem to be hearing any of what Jesus was saying in those verses ,do you scott? I really think this is going beyond just a simple disagreement with you. It's like there is this stubbornness in you that simply will not do as your told on this issue. I know that words like submission and obedience are not very popular words these days, but really scott, are you able to be commanded by your god?
He said don't do it. We have had SEVERAL exchanges on this and I've quoted the verses at least 5 times now and yet you STILL come up with this thing about how I should call my self master as though it's the most ridiculous thing you've heard of that I have NOT done so.
Can anyone else see what's happening here? I know it seems like such a small thing i.e call no man father, but the bigger picture is obedience. If we are faithful in the little things then we will be faithful in the bigger things, and the opposite is true, too. That being the case, this really is not the "no big deal" that scott makes it out to be.
Now, on to your other comments about work, which really does seem to more of a reaction to comments I've made about money on other posts rather than genuine discussion.
You are right. Jesus said that we will love one and hate the other and that we cannot work for God and money at the same time. Matthew 6:24.
Which one do you hate, scott? See, it's not about working vs not working, it's about WHO we work for.
Of course it did. Remember when Jesus said "come to me all you who are weary, and I will give you sabbath?" We don't come to Jesus one day out of the week.
Unless, that is what you are getting at? 6 days out of the week you work for money and then 1 day out of the week you seek FIRST the kingdom of heaven? There IS a reason why he used the word first when referring to seeking the kingdom of heaven, scott. Wanna take a guess as to why that is?
It was their only job, scott. The scriptures very clearly say that forsook their jobs to follow Jesus, traveling around from town to town. Can you see how your "jesus didn't really mean that" arguments with something as clear as "call no man on earth father" have also spread to other areas like seeking gods kingdom first? It's like you view every discipline of Jesus through these "he didn't really mean that" glasses. Why not stop justifying some OTHER way of doing what Jesus did and just do what he actually did?
I don't understand it either. He quit one job and started another. The only difference is that he did his new job for free, just because he wanted to help others. Are you suggesting, scott, that people who help others for free are bums because they don't demand payment in exchange for their help? That is certainly what it looks like.
Good idea. I strongly suggest you go back to the 4 gospels and ignore everything about prophecy or salvation, and just get stuck into looking at what it is that Jesus told his followers to actually or NOT to do. Seriously scott, I don't know how any christian can take all your arguments about prophecy seriously when you've very clearly got issues with some of the most basic teachings of Jesus. You really need to get back to the cornerstone and I don't mean that as some petty pot shot at your spirituality.
S
Dear cows chewing grass, Actually, I am not "siding with St. Paul" as against siding with Jesus. I was just saying maybe you have not understood what is meant by "call no man father" from our Lord Jesus Christ. I think anyway this deserves further study. It still doesn't change the point that if the Orthodox Church is wrong about calling her priests "father", she is still right about preaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father" according to John 15:26. Perhaps the truth is that every Christian group has its mistakes, and no Christian group is without some error. All Christian may mistake something from the Bible at least once. I do not know. I think eventually this will all be made clear by the Lord, by the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). I think that we must not take what Christ said out of context. Whatever He meant by the words He said. What is clear to me is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. I am less certain about prohibitions against calling a minister father if that is what Christ requires. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
C
I really don't understand what that has to do with it.
I really am flabbergasted, scott. If I say, "do not turn on the television" what do you think I mean? It is possible that you really are not able to see the meaning in the sentence.
Could you maybe tell me what you think I mean by that?
Perhaps? lol
Only once? You've certainly got very high standards. What was the one mistake you made?
Eventually? But it's right there in front of you in verses 7-9. "Call no man on Earth Father, because you have one father, even your father in Heaven".
You are suggesting that eventually God will make it clear to you what he means by that? Like, what do you expect him to do, come down from heaven and tell you face to face "call no man on Earth father"?
Seriously scott, HOW could god possibly make himself any more clear than by saying "do not do it"? If it's a lightening bolt you are waiting for just be sure it's not one that actually hits you! lol
"call no man on Earth your father, because you have one father, your father in Heaven". What is the context here, scott and how does taking this command at face value go "out" of that context?
Oh man is anyone else getting this? Seriously? Whatever he meant by the words he said? "DO NOT DO IT". "Gosh, what IS he trying to say? I just don't get it. If only I could understand what he wants." lol
It's really not a laughing matter, but I just cannot believe how stubborn you are being about this. You present this as though it's one of the great mysteries of life when blind freddy can see what Jesus was saying. Talk about exasperation. Is calling grandpa "grandpa" really that important to you scott?
I really am flabbergasted, scott. If I say, "do not turn on the television" what do you think I mean? It is possible that you really are not able to see the meaning in the sentence.
Could you maybe tell me what you think I mean by that?
Perhaps? lol
Only once? You've certainly got very high standards. What was the one mistake you made?
Eventually? But it's right there in front of you in verses 7-9. "Call no man on Earth Father, because you have one father, even your father in Heaven".
You are suggesting that eventually God will make it clear to you what he means by that? Like, what do you expect him to do, come down from heaven and tell you face to face "call no man on Earth father"?
Seriously scott, HOW could god possibly make himself any more clear than by saying "do not do it"? If it's a lightening bolt you are waiting for just be sure it's not one that actually hits you! lol
"call no man on Earth your father, because you have one father, your father in Heaven". What is the context here, scott and how does taking this command at face value go "out" of that context?
Oh man is anyone else getting this? Seriously? Whatever he meant by the words he said? "DO NOT DO IT". "Gosh, what IS he trying to say? I just don't get it. If only I could understand what he wants." lol
It's really not a laughing matter, but I just cannot believe how stubborn you are being about this. You present this as though it's one of the great mysteries of life when blind freddy can see what Jesus was saying. Talk about exasperation. Is calling grandpa "grandpa" really that important to you scott?
S
Friend What say you of John 15:26? The very Church you say is wrong for calling her ministers "father", because you think you know what Christ is saying, the same Church preaches John 15:26. And yet people who refuse to call pastors "father", also preach the Spirit comes from the Father "AND THE SON".
Why profess to obey Christ in one area, but disobey His teaching in John 15:26. I am certain the Orthodox Church has not erred in any major way. I am not convinced that calling priests father is disobedience of any kind. Especially when the priests and bishops of this same Church teach faithfully and take seriously what CHRIST says in JOHN 15:26. But the PROTESTANTS twist this verse and say the Spirit proceeds from BOTH the Father and the Son. Go figure. In Erie Scott
S
Dear cookie39, I don't know how one post stating merely we need to be careful how we interpret Scriptures is filled with so many responses which misinterpret so many Scriptures. Like the one about call no man father. Why should I expect anyone in the forum would be the one from God who would come along and tell me the true meaning of the Bible verse? Is there anything that should make me expect that? There are too many false teachings out there, very few of you seem to know what you are talking about. It all depends upon what is the true criterion of rightly understanding all the Scriptures. All claim the Holy Spirit will guide into all the truth (John 16:13), but then the very same different persons who claim the Holy Spirit for their teacher, come up with some opposing, highly contradictory teachings on what the Scriptures mean. GO FIGURE.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington
In Erie PA Scott Harrington
R
Personally I'd rather interpret scripture according to what Jesus said and did. I don't need to go to a church for that. Like Jesus said to Peter "...you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." (Matthew 16:23). And "church" is a thing of man. In the Bible Jesus always taught the people outside or sitting around a table, not in a church. He seemed to be very much against the opulence and ceremony. I'd rather find spiritual comfort through Jesus, alone where it feels more sincere and personal. But that's just my personal preference.
S
Dear friend, It really does depend on who you trust for interpreting Scripture. Do you come to Scripture with no pre-conceived notions, and you merely take the Lord at His word, or do you interpret the Scripture through some tradition. The Bible doesn't just leap out and tell us whether there are only 2 sacraments, or 7. People differ on this matter. It takes a lot of further digging deeper into the holy and sacred well-water of Scripture, the living water of the holy words of God, to understand there are 7 mysteries, 7 sacraments, and not merely 2, not merely baptism and communion. The idea of "me and my Bible alone" and I don't "need any other man to tell me what the Scripture means", well, at least one tells oneself what the Scripture means. If we are to avoid solipsism (self-worship/individualism), we need sacred tradition to tell us how to understand the Bible. Obviously, people get side-tracked into useless Calvinism versus Arminianism, when the Bible teaches neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. So much for the me and the Holy Spirit alone theory. Protestants who hold that theory sometimes support either theology that is Calvinist or Arminian. The whole issue does not resolve the fact that in Scripture there are indeed some things hard to understand (cf. 2 PETER 3:16), etc. In Erie PA Scott
S
You wrote, Rob_Chapman: "And "church" is a thing of man." That is wrong! Completely and totally wrong. While the Church is composed of men, and men are sinful, the Church herself is a holy nation, a royal priesthood, made up of living stones of Jesus Christ! The Church that Christ founded was founded by Jesus Christ Himself (Mat. 16:18), and it shall not fail. It is founded by Christ, and so the Church shall remain on earth until the end of time. Also, it is not a church of man, but of God. The Church is "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). Notice, it is not the Bible or the NT that is the pillar and ground of the truth. It is the CHURCH that is the foundation upon which Christ builds His Body, the Church is Christ's Body. Christ Himself only is the way to God the Father, but He lives in His Church, and cannot be separated from His own Body, the Church. It is merely a controversy among men which church is the Church that Christ founded! In Erie PA Scott
R
My interpretation is that when he said "on this rock" he was talking about the earth itself. And on earth he would create his church, meaning the earth was His domain and there He would say what He needed to say.
Your use of bold type and exclamation points speaks volumes about your anger over such discussion, so therefore I disengage from further discussion with you so as to not upset you further, as I am here to learn and share ideas and discuss with those who are willing to discuss. Thank you.
Your use of bold type and exclamation points speaks volumes about your anger over such discussion, so therefore I disengage from further discussion with you so as to not upset you further, as I am here to learn and share ideas and discuss with those who are willing to discuss. Thank you.
S
Friend, We should not appeal to ourselves or to private interpretations of the NT. We should appeal to the faith of the saints (St. Jude 3) as always believed "always, everywhere, and by everyone" who is Christian (St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitories). Surely, the Church fathers know better than we do what the Bible means, because they lived in days of the early church, especially in the first 400 years of the Church, the Holy Spirit accomplished much work. He was working very hard to keep the Church from Schism, and the Church remained in unity at least until 880 AD. In the centuries following St. Photios, the papal West of Rome came to defy and deny the holy teachings of our father among the saints Saint Photios the Great. Go figure! Here is the NT passage in controversy, with the explanation given by a great Church father, St. John Chrysostom. We read: "And do not begin to call anyone Father upon the earth, for One is your Father, the One in he heavens." St. Matthe2 23:9 ONT Orthodox New Testament, vol. 1, p. 55.
Comment: Saint Chrysostom: "Not that they should not call, but that they may know Whom one ought to call Father in the highest sense." [Hom. 72, PG (Patrologia Graeca), 58:74 (col. 670).]. (ONT, note on Mat. 23:9, p. 118.].
Thus, as Chrysostom clarifies this for us, do not call any man Father in the highest sense of God, not that we cannot call any man father at all, but that we cannot call any man God the Father. There. Mystery solved. That is quite clear. Christ means do not ascribe deity to any man, not that we may not call a man father, but that we may not say that any man is God the Father, that any man is Father in the highest sense. This really solves the mystery, and is not a private interpretation, but an apostolic teaching. He who hears the Church Fathers hears Christ; he who denigrates them or slanders them denigrates and slanders Christ Himself. (Thus Christ prays in John 17 for those who will believe in Him who were the successors of His 12 apostles, and these are the church fathers of the early centuries of the church. The Church remained in unity in the sense of John 17 until 1054 AD. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
S
I may be lost but no one is able to explain why. I on the otherhand have provided a lot of proof why I am on the right path.
Dear PBUH, Jesus Christ is alive and living in heaven at the right hand of God the Father. He will never die. He already died on the Cross, to save all human beings from their sins. He died I believe sometime between 30 and 33 AD. The exact year is unknown as the calendar is off by a few years. Suppose Christ was crucified, in one ESTIMATION of it, on Friday, April 7, 30 AD, and ROSE FROM THE DEAD on SUNDAY, April 9, 30 AD. Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs, bestowing life! Moses is buried. Muhammad is buried. All the people of the Bible are buried, including St. Paul, St. Peter, St. John. Only Christ is now living and alive. Of course, the saints of God are now alive in heaven with Christ, as is St. Peter, St. Andrew, St. John, St. James, St. Paul, and so on. Whenever and whatever year AD that Christ died, Christ died die on a cross, and shed every last drop of His blood for the salvation of the world (1 John 2:2). He rose from the dead, too.
God bless you, PBUH. God grant you many many years. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
Brothers we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men who have no hope
We believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus, those who have fallen asleep in him.
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep
For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first
After that, we who are still alive and left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thes 4:13-17
We believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus, those who have fallen asleep in him.
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep
For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first
After that, we who are still alive and left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thes 4:13-17
And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you, but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
An anointing, which we have received from God, who teaches us all things, who is the truth and is not a lie, so that we need no man to teach us. And this anointing teaches us one thing. Read the bible? Nope. Abide in Jesus.
Abide in Jesus.
Abide in Jesus.
So that when He appears we may have confidence and not shrink away at His appearing.
Abide in Jesus.
Will we be ashamed when we see Him?
An anointing, which we have received from God, who teaches us all things, who is the truth and is not a lie, so that we need no man to teach us. And this anointing teaches us one thing. Read the bible? Nope. Abide in Jesus.
Abide in Jesus.
Abide in Jesus.
So that when He appears we may have confidence and not shrink away at His appearing.
Abide in Jesus.
Will we be ashamed when we see Him?
S
My interpretation is that when he said "on this rock" he was talking about the earth itself. And on earth he would create his church, meaning the earth was His domain and there He would say what He needed to say.
Your use of bold type and exclamation points speaks volumes about your anger over such discussion, so therefore I disengage from further discussion with you so as to not upset you further, as I am here to learn and share ideas and discuss with those who are willing to discuss. Thank you.
Your use of bold type and exclamation points speaks volumes about your anger over such discussion, so therefore I disengage from further discussion with you so as to not upset you further, as I am here to learn and share ideas and discuss with those who are willing to discuss. Thank you.
when jesus said, seek and you will find, what does he mean to you? if it is true what you said. quote,
all scr, are not to be interprated by no man. than we would have no need for bible. this is what those
olden days roman church tell the followers, only the pope can have a bible and interprsted.
i know where you are coming from. and where you are going, into darkness.