Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[posthuman]

understand it in its context. it is like Solomon saying over and over 'under the sun'

within the universe God created, momentum and mass/energy and information cannot be destroyed. it only changes forms. it can be rendered powerless & have all its glory removed ((the literal meaning of 'destroy')) or it can be made powerful & glorified.
that does not mean God did not create the universe -- it means that in the universe He chose to create in order to testify of Himself, The Truth, it is a fundamental fact of the universe He created that nothing is annihilated in it; things only change form, and if you are omniscient and omnipotent, you can always restore them: nothing within the universe God created can utterly cease to exist.

God created the universe with such characteristics on purpose. why?
by Him all things consist. He upholds all things. our existence - whether lost or saved, both - is fundamentally made of His existence. we are souls because His breath is in us. does His breath cease to exist? does He annihilate His own breath?

what does His universe teach you? He created His universe in order to teach you. does His testimony, His universe, teach annihilationism? absolutely not!

which is again, just like Luke 16, the OP starting point.

Jesus Christ, THE TRUTH, gave us an account of a man named Lazarus and a rich man, and what happened to them after their physical bodies expired.
whether you call it a parable or not, this remains:
within that account, is Jesus telling all kinds of absolute lies and pagan myths?
or is Jesus telling the truth?

He gave us Luke 16 in order to teach us, just like He gave us the universe in order to teach us.
is God teaching us lies?

that is what you and mr. telephone's position boils down to. you are claiming that God is deceiving us with lies, that His testimony is false. mr. phone's doctrine is essentially that we're supposed to be clever enough to understand that what God says cannot be trusted.

that's heinous

 

[Journeyman]

How long are they in the lake of fire?

Apparently as long as it takes to uncover every idle word spoken along with all their other sins.

What becomes of them afterwards?

They perish.

What denomination believes this?

I don't know. I don't go by denomination. The majority of the experts of scripture 2000 years ago didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah. The majority was wrong.

 

[TheLearner]

Again, that is a gamble that you must be willing to take. I am not willing to take it. Good luck if that is what you are wanting to do.

Is it a sin for Ellen White to teach false doctrines?

 

[TheLearner]

All I am saying is that Revelation 20:10 gives a definition for what it means to be cast into the lake of fire.

That more than satan, the beast, and the false prophet, will be cast there is in the word of God; it is not adding to it to say that there will be more than just those three in the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 specifically tells us that all whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast there.

Is the false prophet human?

 

[TheLearner]

False. The only thing that lasts forever there is the smoke.

locally smoke will end when everything is burned up. Demons are fallen angels which are spirit, not physical thus nothing to burn.

 

[Journeyman]

what does His universe teach you? He created His universe in order to teach you. does His testimony, His universe, teach annihilationism? absolutely not!

I said I understand your point, but from your point, the universe as we understand it from physical properties has led scientists to the false belief that it was always here. That it wasn't created out of nothing, but that it always existed. That's not true.

 

[Runningman]

locally smoke will end when everything is burned up. Demons are fallen angels which are spirit, not physical thus nothing to burn.

Humans are spirits, too, so by your logic there is nothing to burn. What is being burned exactly?

Also, let's try to stay as close to the text as possible. It says the smoke rises forever, but not that anyone is tormented forever. I think that isn't a mistake.

 

[TheLearner]

This really is a important subject.

The state of the dead.....
Do the dead really die ... the dead are dead.
Or are the dead alive in another form, or the soul lives on without the body.

Has anyone looked at history? It really helps to understand the origins of these teachings. The first lie that was told to eve.... "You shall not die". Like understanding Christmas and its beginnings you can understand why Christianity and paganism are mixed together for that day.

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The word soul in Ecclesiastes refers to physical death friend. In the NT soul often refers to the spiritual part of mankind. Some uses of soul in the OT may be misread as being the spiritual part. Remember revelation in scripture is progressive or develops. A good example is the New Covenant.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 2:24
There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God.

Ecclesiastes 4:8
There is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore travail.

Ecclesiastes 6:2
A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease.

Ecclesiastes 6:3
If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.

Ecclesiastes 7:28
Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.

Ezekiel 3:19
Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3:21
Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 4:14
Then said I, Ah Lord God! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

Ezekiel 13:18
And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

Ezekiel 13:19
And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Ezekiel 13:20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Ezekiel 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

Ezekiel 14:20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 22:25
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

Ezekiel 22:27
Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

Ezekiel 24:21
Speak unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellency of your strength, the desire of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword.

Ezekiel 33:5
He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

Ezekiel 33:9
Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.


Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[TheLearner]

Nahum goes on to say the unsaved are like dry stubble (vs.10).

As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire,
So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psa.68:2

The lof isn't an eternal holding tank for the lost. It's the presence of our Lord Jesus on judgement day. Compare these,

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Thes.2:8

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet.....These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev.19:20

Peter tells us when Christ appears again, the universe will be engulfed in fire. That's one big lake!

The text has in figurative language and speaks of this life, not end times. Context Matters Brother.

Nahum 1
Easy-to-Read Version
1 This book is the vision of Nahum from Elkosh. This is the sad message about the city of Nineveh.[a]

The Lord Is Angry at Nineveh
2 The Lord is a jealous God.
The Lord punishes the guilty,
and he is very angry.
The Lord punishes his enemies,
and he stays angry with them.
3 The Lord is patient,
but he is also very powerful!
The Lord will punish the guilty;
he will not let them go free.
He will use whirlwinds and storms to show his power.
People walk on the dusty ground, but he walks on the clouds.
4 He will speak harshly to the sea, and it will become dry.
He will dry up all the rivers.
The rich lands of Bashan and Carmel become dry and dead.
The flowers in Lebanon fade away.
5 The Lord will come,
and the mountains will shake
and the hills will melt away.
He will come,
and the earth will shake with fear.
The earth and everyone on it
will shake with fear.
6 No one can stand against his great anger.
No one can endure his terrible anger.
His anger will burn like fire.
The rocks will shatter when he comes.
7 The Lord is good.
He is a safe place to go to in times of trouble.
He takes care of those who trust him.
8 But he will completely destroy his enemies.
He will wash them away like a flood
and chase them into the darkness.
9 Why are you making plans against the Lord?
He will bring complete destruction,
so you will not cause trouble again.
10 You will be destroyed completely
like thornbushes burning under a pot.
You will be destroyed
like dry weeds that burn quickly.

11 Someone from Nineveh is making evil plans against the Lord.
That advisor is a worthless troublemaker.
12 This is what the Lord said:
“The people of Assyria are at full strength.
They have many soldiers, but they will all be cut down.
They will all be finished.
My people, I made you suffer,
but I will make you suffer no more.
13 Now I will set you free from the power of Assyria.
I will take the yoke off your neck
and tear away the chains holding you.”

14 King of Assyria, the Lord gave this command about you:
“You will not have any descendants to wear your name.
I will destroy your carved idols
and metal statues that are in the temple of your gods.
I am preparing your grave,
because your end is coming soon! ”

15 Judah, look!
There, coming over the mountains, is a messenger bringing good news!
He says there is peace.
Judah, celebrate your special festivals
and do what you promised.
Those worthless troublemakers will not come through and attack you again.
They have all been destroyed.

Footnotes
Nahum 1:1 Nineveh The capital city of the country of Assyria. Assyria destroyed Israel in 722–721 B.C.
Nahum 1:14 because your end is coming soon Or “you are not important” or “you are so hated.”
Micah 7

 

[TheLearner]

As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire,
So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psa.68:2

By your misquote the goats would perish or cease to exist before they are judged because they come into Jesus's presence in Matthew 25. Most likely the text refers to this life like your last proof text.

 

[TheLearner]

The text speaks of the man of evil physical death. Context Matters.

2 Thessalonians 2
Easy-to-Read Version
Evil Things Will Happen
2 Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2 Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3 Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell.[a] 4 He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.

5 I told you before that all these things would happen. Remember? 6 And you know what is stopping that Man of Evil now. He is being stopped now so that he will appear at the right time. 7 The secret power of evil is already working in the world now. But there is one who is stopping that secret power of evil. And he will continue to stop it until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that Man of Evil will appear. But the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath that comes from his mouth. The Lord will come in a way that everyone will see, and that will be the end of the Man of Evil.

9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved. 11 So God will send them something powerful that leads them away from the truth and causes them to believe a lie. 12 They will all be condemned because they did not believe the truth and because they enjoyed doing evil.

You Are Chosen for Salvation
13 Brothers and sisters, you are people the Lord loves. And we always thank God for you. That’s what we should do, because God chose you to be some of the first people[c] to be saved. You are saved by the Spirit making you holy and by your faith in the truth. 14 God chose you to have that salvation. He chose you by using the Good News that we told you. You were chosen so that you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, brothers and sisters, stand strong and continue to believe the teachings we gave you when we were there and by letter.

16-17 We pray that the Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father will comfort you and strengthen you in every good thing you do and say. God loved us and gave us through his grace a wonderful hope and comfort that has no end.

Footnotes
2 Thessalonians 2:3 belongs to hell Literally, “is the son of destruction.”
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Temple Probably the Temple in Jerusalem. See “Temple” in the Word List.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 to be … people Some Greek copies say, “from the beginning.”
2 Thessalonians 1
2 Thessalonians 3

 

[TheLearner]

I understand what you're saying. For many years I believed the same thing. I think a big problem is that Christians are unwilling to look at the other side. All scripture must agree, but for a long time, I was unwilling to examine passages that seemingly contradicted what I had been taught. I try not to do that anymore.

And, yet friend you create a contradiction in Matthew 25:46

 

[TheLearner]

Smoke is aerated dust.
Your body is dust.
If you are burned up and your smoke remains forever, then your body does - it has only changed forms, not ceased to exist.

The body of the resurrected is not like our body today.

1 Corinthians 15:54
Easy-to-Read Version
54 So this body that ruins will clothe itself with that which never ruins. And this body that dies will clothe itself with that which never dies. When this happens, the Scriptures will be made true:

“Death is swallowed in victory.”

 

[TheLearner]

You participant in argument the decay in the Garden of Eden Post - decay in the beginning and federal headship. It was argued that man was made perfect vs good. The argument was continued here in this OP. It was established that the persistence of the human soul was the basis of interpretation of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life.
Also did you not intimate this in the post #510 as you contended that immortality it was not contingent on God from my reckoning?
Without the logical necessity of a hell, the doctrine then becomes an assumption of the Person of the Most High. That is impossible and forbidden outside of the Scriptures.

So no, it is not a strawman. It is the main point of contention wrt hell. All interpretations hell conform to either one or the other. They don`t mix.

Link please thanks I do not remember much now days

 

[TheLearner]

Touché! That’s infallible.

Seems a bit far-reaching that you felt the need to turn the wicked into disembodied airborne particulates, weeping and gnashing their teeth somehow, rather than just letting the Bible stand on its own merit and say they were put to death via destruction.

that’s why I assume you’re joking. That’s clever

No human being is infallible except Our Lord.

 

[TheLearner]

They are names of the Messiah not to God
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/9-6.htm

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
...
Wonderful, Counseller] Since each of the other names is compounded of two words, these expressions are also to be taken together as forming a single designation—Wonder-Counseller. The construction is either construct followed by genitive—“a wonder of a Counseller” (cf. Genesis 16:12), or acc. governed by participle—“one who counsels wonderful things.” Cf. “wonderful in counsel” (of Jehovah) in ch. Isaiah 28:29. On counsel as the function of a king, see Micah 4:9.

The mighty God] (’êl Gibbôr) either “God-like Hero” or Hero-God. The second is to be preferred, because the title is applied to Jehovah in ch. Isaiah 10:21 (cf. Deuteronomy 10:17; Jeremiah 32:18). These two titles ascribe to the Messiah the two fundamental virtues of a ruler, wisdom and strength (cf. ch. Isaiah 11:2), both in superhuman measure. The predicate of divinity (like that of eternity in the next name) is not to be understood in the absolute metaphysical sense; it means that the divine energy works through him and is displayed in his rule (cf. Isaiah 11:2 ff.; Mi. Isaiah 5:4; Zechariah 12:8). In the fulfilment the words receive a larger sense.
...
The everlasting Father] lit. Father of Eternity. The translation “Father of booty” is grammatically unimpeachable (see ch. Isaiah 33:23; Genesis 49:27), but the ideas of fatherhood and booty form an unnatural association. “Father of Eternity” describes the king, not as “possessor of the attribute of eternity” but as one who continually acts as a father to his people.

Prince of Peace] Cf. ch. Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 11:4 ff.; Micah 5:5; Zechariah 9:10.

The Messiah is Wise beyond this world, He is a Hero of Godlike Stature, He is the Father of Eternity - Firstborn of all Creation and Resurrection and hence Father of Eternity, and Prince of Peace - King of the Iron Scepter.


The Spirit of God as an unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:16John answered all of them: “I baptize you with water, but One more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Heb 12:28Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. 29“For our God is a consuming fire.”

The jungle under the sun causes you to wail and gnash your teeth. The fire is from the sun as one wails for tammuz. The Unquenchable Fire will either make you refined gold or fill you with Fear.

where can I download that complete bible commentary set for free?

Isaiah 9:6
This will happen when the special child is born. God will give us a son who will be responsible for leading the people. His name will be “Wonderful Counselor, Powerful God, Father Who Lives Forever, Prince of Peace.”

 

[TheLearner]

where can I download that complete bible commentary set for free?

Isaiah 9:6
This will happen when the special child is born. God will give us a son who will be responsible for leading the people. His name will be “Wonderful Counselor, Powerful God, Father Who Lives Forever, Prince of Peace.”

 

[posthuman]

The body of the resurrected is not like our body today.

1 Corinthians 15:54
Easy-to-Read Version
54 So this body that ruins will clothe itself with that which never ruins. And this body that dies will clothe itself with that which never dies. When this happens, the Scriptures will be made true:

“Death is swallowed in victory.”

literally, this perishable shall have put on the imperishable, which is, this which is subject to decay shall have clothed itself in that which is not subject to decay.
an interesting point then that arises because this is described in the context of death being swallowed up, is that death in this sense is likened to decay - not cessation of existence. even more strongly to that point, there is a 'person' who is alternately clothed with the perishable, and will be clothed with the imperishable -- a clear doctrine is embedded here, that the erstwhile clothing (((the physical body)) is not the person. the person is non-physical, and persists even when the body is decayed ((i.e. has died)).

once again we see this precept, which is all over scripture, that physical death is not cessation of existence - the soul is not annihilated by the separation of it from the flesh.

 

[TheLearner]

The verse was written in a more ancient language. Not english. Your sources are translations.
The exegesis of the "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges" is more objective and dependable than your understanding. Your critique is not credible.

I believe we had a similar argument with your trinity OP. My conclusions were that you lack any standard of truth. Rhetoric very much like slashing at water with you. There is no reason to continue as it will be a fruitless endeavour.

"
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
46. The same Greek word (aiônios) is translated everlasting (punishment) and (life) eternal; also in each case the adjective in the Greek text follows the noun—the place of emphasis. The adjective aiônios (eternal) = of or belonging to (1) an aiôn or period, (a) past, (b) present, (c) future, or (2) to a succession of aiôns or periods. It does not, therefore, in itself=“unending.” But life eternal, which is “to know the true God and Jesus Christ” (John 17:3), can only be conceived of as unending and infinite; cp. “Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die” (Habakkuk 1:12).

punishment] (Greek, kolasis), not “vengeance,” but punishment that checks or reforms.

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges"​

Please explain the Red Part, thanks

 

[TheLearner]

No I don't think so. One day about a year ago, I was reading the Bible and I realized that it never clearly states anyone is in eternal conscious torment aside from three people. People quote Revelation 20:10, but it can be proven that forever doesn't always mean forever. The debate for eternal torment always falls back to Revelation 20:10, but it literally says only three persons are tormented forever not all sinners. The Bible is packed full of dozens of verses that say the wicked are destroyed, perish, or are put to death.

It falls back to Matthew 25:46