Is abortion murder?

in-God-we-trust · Feb 25, 2013

Abortion is not murder as long as your government does not declare it as murder.

It is similar to soldiers killing the enemi in war times. If the government commends a soldier for killing its enemi then it is surely no murder!

And the government is given its power by God. Thus God approves the governments decision.

sunnygurl · Feb 25, 2013

Abortion is murder of a developing baby.

jonrambo · Feb 26, 2013

in-God-we-trust said:

Wow dude you trust your government way too much. How do you explain "God" making christianity illegal in some countries

Sorry man Im sure there is plenty i could learn from you but thats definatey not right

jonrambo · Feb 26, 2013

If your government told you to sacrifice your children to molech in a fire would you?

tdrew777 · Feb 26, 2013

Responding to some earlier posts:
When Satan decided he did not want to be with God, what did our ominspresent God do? He created a place where the powerful grace that comes from the presence of God is absent - hell. Created for the devil, not for men. None of the powerful unmerited favor (grace) that comes from the presence of God is there. You can do what you want - no blessed interference. That was the original deal.

Our original sin was of a higher nature. Adam did not try to be bad, he tried to find a way to discern good and evil - apart from God's counsel. Prior to then he could walk with God in the cool of the morning. Direct counsel from God. That is what Adam rejected. Should God, who is not a tyrant, FORCE Adam to stay in his presence? He did not. He gave Adam the chance to choose good and evil on his own. And Adam and his descendants show that even with the fruit, we are unwilling/unable to do choose good over evil.

God in Christ, extends the chance to men to get back into God's holy presence. He maintains justice - no sin goes unpunished. He is not a judge who does not deal with some transgressions and deals with others. He deals with every transgression on the cross. The atonement is sufficient for all. But it is effective only for some. Some people do not want holiness, nor the presence of God and feel offended when their free choice is over-ruled by God's powerful grace. Like a baby who struggles to get out of Daddy's arms, God bears them through life, He follows them with powerful grace.

But there must come a time when the decision to live apart from God's grace must be allowed, since God is not a tyrant. It is by God's grace that a drunk sobers up - imagine what happens if we ever got drunk in a place that has no grace. It is God's grace that the evil desires of our heart do not always find their way to our mouths and hands. Again, imagine life with no grace.

The bible never says men are punished forever for our sins on earth. It does say that men are punished forever in hell. It does say that, apart from the direct influence of the Holy Spirit men are incapable of not living in sin. In hell you will sin to your hearts content and the powerful grace of God will not intervene - forever and ever.

That is why there are only two great categories. However, not everyone is equal, in this life nor the next. "All men are created equal" according to the US Declaration of Independence, not according to scripture. Nor in reality, do we find two men equal in any respect, much less in every respect. Equality requires measurement - you must measure to determine equality. God created us with infinity, not with equality. He loves each infinitely, NOT equally. There are no equal positions in heaven, just as there are none on earth. (George Washington is not equal to Abraham Lincoln). The presence of God opens wonderful options for eternity. His absence opens terrible options for eternity.

Adam wanted to choose for himself - and so do most of his offspring - what is good and what is evil. We have the Holy Spirit of God,

spacefreak · Feb 26, 2013

yes, definitely yes

in-God-we-trust · Feb 26, 2013

sunnygurl said:

In an absolute sense you are right. But then it were equaly right to say: a soldier killing an enemi soldier is a murderer!

in-God-we-trust · Feb 26, 2013

jonrambo said:

I think it is right and I endeavour to show you some angles of the case you might not yet have considered:

1)
Did Jesus Christ try to overturn the romans occupying Israel in His time? You remember when Jesus was born Herod ordered his troops to kill all firstborn male babies, in order to kill also the foretold Messias. But Jesus even commended to pay taxes orderly to the Romans. He even let Himself be trialed and killed by roman jurisdiction, obviously with the conscent of His Father the mighty God!

2)
Romans 13:1-7New International Version (NIV)

[h=3]Submission to Governing Authorities[/h]13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

3)
Do you think the United States of America, a truly Christian state and an iron sword in the hand of the Almighty, would not come to the help of fellow Christians around the world who are in serious danger and cry out to the Lord? But if not, it is the duty of every Christian eventually to give his life - and even the life of his loved ones if necessary - to show his love to Jesus Christ, but not by opposing the government but by submitting to the government! Because:

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;[SUP][/SUP]38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.[SUP][/SUP]39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 10:37-39 (New International Version))[SUP][/SUP]

in-God-we-trust · Feb 26, 2013

jonrambo said:

Yes I would! (But surely I cannot say: gladly).

Elizabeth619 · Feb 26, 2013

jonrambo said:

in-God-we-trust said:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same."

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil."

appropriate government is only a terror to evil works; but not to good works. Good government is NOT a terror to good works. In other words, when a government is run amuck with crime, and injustice, we are not Biblically obligated to submit anymore. The Apostle Paul deliberately broke the law. Acts 18:13, “Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.” We ought to obey God rather than men. sometimes Christians must rebel against man in order to obey God.

So to say abortion is only wrong if the government says so and that you'd kill your own child bc they told you to is not only appalling but unbiblical.

God is still the Supreme ruler and we are to obey him over any man made law. Authorities are also to obey God.

We are told not to murder. It is also part of moral law.
To say you will obey the commands of the government even if it goes against God is holding The Lord subordinate to man.

It may be a good idea to look over certain scriptures and study them. God does not place evil in any office. He created government for a purpose, but even then leaders can fall victim to evils works. That is not God. That's Satan.

Elizabeth619 · Feb 26, 2013

I didn't mean to quote jonrambo. Evidently I can't operate my iPhone successfully

jonrambo · Feb 27, 2013

in god we trust you would have been worshiping ahabs asherah poles if you were a jew back in the day.
if you were german back in the day you would have shot jews for fun.
i hope your joking coz thats just messed up.
i guess youl be first in line to recieve the mark of the beast and persecute christians.
you are a fine example of brainwashing at its best.
doing what a man says over what God says is stupidity at its best and in my opinion is piss weak.
you need to re-think your entire value system

jonrambo · Feb 27, 2013

in-God-we-trust said:

HOW CAN A CHRISTIAN PERSON THAT READS THE BIBLE THINK THIS WAY!?

in-God-we-trust · Feb 27, 2013

"If you love the world and the world loves you YOUR DOING IT WRONG!"

Jonrambo! Do you not realyse that you are the one loving and loved by the world?

in-God-we-trust · Feb 27, 2013

Elizabeth619 said:

That is the same as I posted, only in the words of the 15th century or so.

"there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God"

Full stop! There is no word about good or evil power in your opinion. You can have an opinion and depending on the government you are even allowed to speak words against the government. But what the government speaks is law. Nowadays we can speak as much against a government as we like, but be sure of this, when it comes to doing then we have to do what our government says!

Elizabeth619 said:

That is your own interpretation of the Bible. It is not correct. Paul may only have spoken against a certain ruler, but He would never have resisted it in deeds!

Elizabeth619 said:

I would only do as what Abraham did, when he proceeded in sacrificing his only son, and what some time later God Himself did, when He sacrificed His only Son Jesus Christ! What is unbiblical on this, when I do what God commanded and what even God Himself did with His only Son?

Elizabeth619 said:

Here you are right. But isn't it Gods duty to govern the authorities on earth? Who are you and what power do you have, that you want to punish the bad authorities? You might attempt it, but will you succeed? OK, if you want to saccrifice your own life and the life of your relatives and your children gladly and if you succeed eventually and your sacrifice was not in vain, then I might commend it! (But actually I'm not completely sure whether I will).

Elizabeth619 said:

There is nothing like a "moral law"! You are deceiving yourself.

How can I make God subordinate to man? Do you contribute to me that much power?

Elizabeth619 said:

So? Did not Hitler govern Germany several years? And Gadhaffi, and Assad, and Kim Jong X of Noth Korea? Satan is nothing! He has no real power at all. He is a thug who knows nothing.

in-God-we-trust · Feb 27, 2013

jonrambo said:

If I would have been forced by government of course I would have done it. You think you can resist the government in deeds (not in braging words only)? Who do you think you are?

jonrambo said:

I'm not doing what a man says, but what a government says. That is different! My value system is the Holy Bible and the Holy Spirit of God! What is your value system?

in-God-we-trust · Feb 27, 2013

jonrambo said:

I mirror this back to you:
HOW CAN A CHRISTIAN PERSON THAT READS THE BIBLE THINK THIS WAY!?

SarahM777 · Feb 27, 2013

in-God-we-trust said:

Umm I think you're leaving something out,

Daniel 3

3 King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, sixty cubits high and six cubits wide,[SUP][a][/SUP] and set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He then summoned the satraps,prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials to come to the dedication of the image he had set up. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So the satraps, prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials assembled for the dedication of the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up, and they stood before it.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the herald loudly proclaimed, “Nations and peoples of every language, this is what you are commanded to do: [SUP]5 [/SUP]As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever does not fall down and worship will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore, as soon as they heard the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp and all kinds of music, all the nations and peoples of every language fell down and worshiped the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]At this time some astrologers[SUP][b][/SUP] came forward and denounced the Jews. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They said to King Nebuchadnezzar, “May the king live forever! [SUP]10 [/SUP]Your Majesty has issued a decree that everyone who hears the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music must fall down and worship the image of gold, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace.[SUP]12 [/SUP]But there are some Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon—Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego—who pay no attention to you, Your Majesty. They neither serve your gods nor worship the image of gold you have set up.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[SUP][c][/SUP] from Your Majesty’s hand. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual[SUP]20 [/SUP]and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. [SUP]21 [/SUP]So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. [SUP]22 [/SUP]The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?”
They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.”
[SUP]25 [/SUP]He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Nebuchadnezzar then approached the opening of the blazing furnace and shouted, “Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out! Come here!”
So Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego came out of the fire,[SUP]27 [/SUP]and the satraps, prefects, governors and royal adviserscrowded around them. They saw that the fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their heads singed; their robes were not scorched, and there was no smell of fire on them.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God.[SUP]29 [/SUP]Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way.”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the province of Babylon.

Did they obey the king or did they trust the Lord? How about Daniel when he was thrown into the lions den,did he obey the king or did he obey the Lord? (King = government)

in-God-we-trust · Feb 27, 2013

SarahM777 said:

That is a very good argument, Sarah! It made me think twice before I tried to give you an answer:

The subject or the original question was: 1) "Is abortion murder?". I said: "No, if your government does not declare it as such".
Another subquestion was: 2) "would you sacrifice your child to molech, if the government forced you to?". I replied: "Yes, I would" (because I assumed, that any resistance would be futile).

Now to my defense:
1) The question about abortion in the USA, where it is obviously a big issue, arises on the basis of a responsible democratically elected government which in no way forces its people to reject God Almighty and to follow other Gods. Therefore to resist this "good" government I see no reason at all.

2) In the hypothetical case of a government to force me to sacrifice my child to molech arises no question of resistance whatsoever. If a government asks something from a citicen then it will enforce it with all the power a government is in possession of, whether the citicen does it willingly or resistantly! So there is no choice of mine. Only God can prevent the horrible event from taking place!

In the case my government would force me to denounce God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit (God forbid! I'm so happy and grateful that I am allowed to live in these times and in this place! But there is no guarantee, that this could not change!) in that deplorable case my obligation would be to sacrifice my body in resistance to that government's imposition! But in no way I should join a rebellion against that government! I just should walk to the slaughter house like the Jews so heroically did under Hitler's terror regime! I can only pray that God would give me the power to do so! But if somebody else would not have the power to do so, I would not condemn him.

I hope this answers your question, Sarah. God bless you!

Earlmayknowornot · Feb 28, 2013

Psalm 22:10
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Luke 1:41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Psalm 139:13
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Psalm 22:10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalm 71:6By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.
Isaiah 49:1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb;from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name
Isaiah 49:5And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

I can keep going

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