Is all scripture plain to understand?

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Jan 12, 2019
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#81
Hi throughfaith,

What do you mean that the gospel Jesus taught was not the same as what Paul taught. Focusing on what you think Jesus taught. Here is what you said.

"Jesus preached the 'Kingdom 'to Israel "

What is preaching the kingdom to Israel? And how does the message differ from Pauls?
Matthew 10:5-7 showed that the gospel Jesus preached had
  1. different audience
  2. different message
  3. signs and wonders
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#82
Matthew 10:5-7 showed that the gospel Jesus preached had
  1. different audience
  2. different message
  3. signs and wonders

So was Jesus teaching a different gospel than Paul?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#83
So was Jesus teaching a different gospel than Paul?
Yes, gospel means good news.

God has various good news given to different audience during different time periods

There is no restriction on God that he must have only ONE good news for everyone for all times.

Some examples are:

God told Abraham the good news he will have many descendants like the stars of heaven and the sand in the shore in genesis 15

God told David the good news that a descendant from him will be ruling from his throne in 2 samuel 7

God told Israel the good news, after about 400 years of complete silence, that this descendant from David is finally here in the flesh, to usher them into that promised kingdom of heaven on earth in Luke 1.

Finally after Israel the nation rejected the messiah for the final time by stoning Stephen, God announced to the whole world the good news thru the apostle Paul that, all of us, gentiles or Jews can be saved thru believing in Jesus death burial and resurrection (Romans 11:11, 1 cor 15:1-4)
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
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#84
Yes, gospel means good news.

God has various good news given to different audience during different time periods

There is no restriction on God that he must have only ONE good news for everyone for all times.

Some examples are:

God told Abraham the good news he will have many descendants like the stars of heaven and the sand in the shore in genesis 15

God told David the good news that a descendant from him will be ruling from his throne in 2 samuel 7

God told Israel the good news, after about 400 years of complete silence, that this descendant from David is finally here in the flesh, to usher them into that promised kingdom of heaven on earth in Luke 1.

Finally after Israel the nation rejected the messiah for the final time by stoning Stephen, God announced to the whole world the good news thru the apostle Paul that, all of us, gentiles or Jews can be saved thru believing in Jesus death burial and resurrection (Romans 11:11, 1 cor 15:1-4)
Hi Guojing,

I understand the different covenants.

Are you saying Jesus taught Old covenant as in works righteousness?
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
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#85
Is all scripture plain to understand?
No.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:14
ESV
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
The only time a sinner can is when the Holy Spirit opens his understanding of the Gospel during conviction.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#86
Hi Guojing,

I understand the different covenants.

Are you saying Jesus taught Old covenant as in works righteousness?
You are now talking about a different topic, gospel is not equivalent to covenant.

But yes, Jesus was born under the Law so he taught the Law to Israel (Galatians 4:4, Romans 15:8, Matthew 15:24)

Israel had to show their faith in God by following the Law of Moses. That covenant was set by God and Israel in Exodus 19:5-6 and started in Exodus 24.

1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

2 And Moses alone shall come near the Lord: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
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#87
So just to make it clear that I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying Jesus taught salvation by works?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#88
Hi throughfaith,

What do you mean that the gospel Jesus taught was not the same as what Paul taught. Focusing on what you think Jesus taught. Here is what you said.

"Jesus preached the 'Kingdom 'to Israel "

What is preaching the kingdom to Israel? And how does the message differ from Pauls?
The good news of the kingdom. The
Hi throughfaith,

What do you mean that the gospel Jesus taught was not the same as what Paul taught. Focusing on what you think Jesus taught. Here is what you said.

"Jesus preached the 'Kingdom 'to Israel "

What is preaching the kingdom to Israel? And how does the message differ from Pauls?
For Israel to recieve their messiah, to rule and reign
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
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#89
You are now talking about a different topic, gospel is not equivalent to covenant.

But yes, Jesus was born under the Law so he taught the Law to Israel (Galatians 4:4, Romans 15:8, Matthew 15:24)
.


So just to make it clear that I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying Jesus taught salvation by works?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#91
The good news of the kingdom. The

For Israel to recieve their messiah, to rule and reign

Is that not good news for us. Are we not to receive Jesus as our Messiah to rule and reign?

Or do you mean Jesus taught works righteousness?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#92
Is that not good news for us. Are we not to receive Jesus as our Messiah to rule and reign?

Or do you mean Jesus taught works righteousness?
Jesus came to his own but his own recieved him not . This was to Israel.
Through there fall we benefit, so to speak..We are grafted in .
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#93
So just to make it clear that I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying Jesus taught salvation by works?
I stated Israel had to show their faith in God by following the Law of Moses.

It was always faith that saves, but following the Law of Moses was the way to show they had faith in God, as stated in Exodus 19:5-6.

Israel, in the 4 gospels when Jesus was in the flesh with them, could not use Romans 3:21 like what we could now.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#94
Is that not good news for us. Are we not to receive Jesus as our Messiah to rule and reign?

Or do you mean Jesus taught works righteousness?
We come into the picture here .
Acts 11 .
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Prior to this ( 10 years after acts 2 ) this was the picture :
19¶Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

JEWS ONLY .
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
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#95
I stated Israel had to show their faith in God by following the Law of Moses.

It was always faith that saves, but following the Law of Moses was the way to show they had faith in God, as stated in Exodus 19:5-6.

Israel, in the 4 gospels when Jesus was in the flesh with them, could not use Romans 3:21 like what we could now.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;



Matthew 10:5-7 showed that the gospel Jesus preached had
  1. different audience
  2. different message
  3. signs and wonders



What was the different message than that of the rest of the NT writings?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#96
We come into the picture here .
Acts 11 .
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Prior to this ( 10 years after acts 2 ) this was the picture :
19¶Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

JEWS ONLY .

So a long winded way of saying Jesus taught works righteousness.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#97
What was the different message than that of the rest of the NT writings?
As I stated to you in my first reply to your post, it was

God told Israel the good news, after about 400 years of complete silence, that this descendant from David is finally here in the flesh, to usher them into that promised kingdom of heaven on earth in Luke 1.

For Romans to Philemon, the rest of the NT writings, the message was

Finally after Israel the nation rejected the messiah for the final time by stoning Stephen, God announced to the whole world the good news thru the apostle Paul that, all of us, gentiles or Jews can be saved thru believing in Jesus death burial and resurrection (Romans 11:11, 1 cor 15:1-4)
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#98
As I stated to you in my first reply to your post, it was

God told Israel the good news, after about 400 years of complete silence, that this descendant from David is finally here in the flesh, to usher them into that promised kingdom of heaven on earth in Luke 1.
Hi Guojing,

I definitely agree that Christ innaugurated the Kingdom, He was the awaited for Messiah. Paul refers to this kingdom also! And yes, they mostly rejected him. Not all.

And yes we see the great commission progression through the book of Acts (in fact Acts gives us the road map Acts 1:8)

How did Jesus tell his people how they could be saved by Him in the gospels?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#99
We come into the picture here .
Acts 11 .
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Prior to this ( 10 years after acts 2 ) this was the picture :
19¶Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

JEWS ONLY .


Hi throughfaith.

So how did Jesus tell the Jews only..How they will or could be saved through Him?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Hi Guojing,

I definitely agree that Christ innaugurated the Kingdom, He was the awaited for Messiah. Paul refers to this kingdom also! And yes, they mostly rejected him. Not all.

And yes we see the great commission progression through the book of Acts (in fact Acts gives us the road map Acts 1:8)

How did Jesus tell his people how they could be saved by Him in the gospels?
Paul never promised the Body of Christ, which is us, the same kingdom of heaven on Earth that was promised to Israel.

When the term “the kingdom of God” appears in Paul's writings, it is a general reference to God’s domain, the realm of His influence (the righteous world system, Christians, and heaven).

This term can apply both to redeemed Israel and the Church the Body of Christ. The phrase “the kingdom of God” is in contradistinction to the realm in which Satan and his cohorts operate (the evil world system, lost [unregenerate] mankind, hell, the lake of fire, fallen angels, et cetera).

A person enters “the kingdom of God” when God rescues/saves him or her from Satan’s realm—having sins forgiven, being declared righteous before God, fellowship with God, able to participate in His will, not going to hell anymore, and so on. You can refer to Matthew 21:31, Luke 17:21, and Colossians 1:13.

Source: https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2015/06/24/kingdom-of-god-kingdom-of-heaven/

As for your 2nd question, Peter, thru the Holy Spirit, summed up how Israel could be saved by the gospel of the kingdom in Acts 3:19-21

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

If you are reading it literally, without inserting what Paul taught us inside, Peter is urging Israel to repent so that their sins may be, not surely, be blotted out.

And when will their sins be blotted out? In the future, when Jesus Christ returns for them, in his 2nd coming, the so called "times of refreshing".


This view by Peter is reaffirmed by what he wrote to the Jews in 1 Peter 4:17-18

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Paul does not teach the Body of Christ that. We are forgiven the moment we believe in his death burial and resurrection for our sins.

It is not a may be, nor will it only come in the future.