Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#241
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,604
113
62
#241
turbosixx said:
Yes, any work under the law of Moses. They were dealing with men trying to force circumcision. Paul in 4:21- he gives an analogy of those under law and those under grace.
Click to expand...
Any commandment, as a condition for relationship with God, is included. His example was used because it was the one present in this case. If you base your relationship with God on how well you love your neighbor, you will not attain eternal life any more than if you base it circumcision. The law always brings death to fallen flesh.
 
T

turbosixx

Active member
#242
Sep 16, 2023
541
123
43
#242
Cameron143 said:
Any commandment, as a condition for relationship with God, is included.
Click to expand...
I disagree. If that were the case, Paul wouldn't have included the qualifier "of the law". He's dealing with people going back to the law.
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Cameron143 said:
His example was used because it was the one present in this case. If you base your relationship with God on how well you love your neighbor, you will not attain eternal life any more than if you base it circumcision. The law always brings death to fallen flesh.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying "how well" you love your neighbor. I'm saying you must love your neighbor. We are human so it won't be perfect.

Can we be saved without doing any these? Can we pick and choose only the ones we agree with?
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

How can anyone KNOW they are in Christ?
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#243
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,604
113
62
#243
turbosixx said:
I disagree. If that were the case, Paul wouldn't have included the qualifier "of the law". He's dealing with people going back to the law.
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.


I'm not saying "how well" you love your neighbor. I'm saying you must love your neighbor. We are human so it won't be perfect.

Can we be saved without doing any these? Can we pick and choose only the ones we agree with?
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

How can anyone KNOW they are in Christ?
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
Click to expand...
You have already admitted we can't keep His commandments. Neither can we produce fruit.
Why do you believe God accepts anything short of perfect righteousness? If doing our best was all that is required, no need for Jesus, the cross, OT sacrifice, the law, or anything else.
The new covenant is a covenant between God the Father and Jesus the Son. It is a works based covenant wherein the Son would be born under the law and fulfill the law that He would provide His people a perfect righteousness. It also included a blood sacrifice that assuaged God's wrath in light of their sins.
We are the beneficiaries of this covenant if we believe. No works can do anything to help one receive the benefits because no works are required. It can only be gifted.
It is only after one receives the benefits of the covenant that works apply...created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#245
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,604
113
62
#245
turbosixx said:
How does one receive the benefits? What must I do to be saved?
Click to expand...
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

When Jesus was asked what works should be done that they might work the works of God...John 6...what was His response? He told them to believe. Why? Because what we believe, we do. What we say doesn't always reflect what we do. This was a problem for the Pharisees. Jesus told the people to do as they say, but not as they do. You are saying get baptized so you will be saved. I am saying get baptized because you are saved. My trust is in what Christ has done alone. You are saying what Christ has done plus repenting and getting water baptized.
When John the Baptist was baptizing and the Pharisees showed up, John asked them where was their fruit meet for repentance? What is he asking concerning them?
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#246
Dec 18, 2021
5,938
1,871
113
#246
turbosixx said:
How does one receive the benefits? What must I do to be saved?
Click to expand...
John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
 
T

turbosixx

Active member
#247
Sep 16, 2023
541
123
43
#247
Cameron143 said:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

When Jesus was asked what works should be done that they might work the works of God...John 6...what was His response? He told them to believe. Why? Because what we believe, we do. What we say doesn't always reflect what we do. This was a problem for the Pharisees. Jesus told the people to do as they say, but not as they do. You are saying get baptized so you will be saved. I am saying get baptized because you are saved. My trust is in what Christ has done alone. You are saying what Christ has done plus repenting and getting water baptized.
When John the Baptist was baptizing and the Pharisees showed up, John asked them where was their fruit meet for repentance? What is he asking concerning them?
Click to expand...
John 6 and John the Baptist were before the gospel.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Today we are saved by the gospel.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
What must I do to be saved?
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#248
Aug 22, 2014
2,977
972
113
44
#248
tylerbones1313 said:
Trust me on this if, Jesus Christ by His Divine power, can turn water to wine, he most certainly can turn dessert into water. Don't put limits on the Almighty.
Click to expand...
This is a silly answer. I was saved FOR SURE before I was baptized in water. As a matter of fact I was baptized once in water and was FOR SURE NOT saved, but this isn't my point. I was baptized as an outward sign to others AFTER I was saved. This is a false teaching that we have to be water baptized to be saved, it is a lie plain and simple. My salvation proves to me this isn't true and I will testify this loud and for His glory, every single one of you claiming water baptism is a NECESSITY to be saved are just wrong plain and simple.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#249
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,604
113
62
#249
turbosixx said:
John 6 and John the Baptist were before the gospel.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Today we are saved by the gospel.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
What must I do to be saved?
Click to expand...
I already told you...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
T

turbosixx

Active member
#250
Sep 16, 2023
541
123
43
#250
Cameron143 said:
I already told you...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
You told me what you say but you haven't proved it by scripture.

IF to believe is all that is required, when Jesus instituted water baptism He would have said, "whoever believes will be saved" but that isn't what He said. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, Words are how information is communicated.
I'll stick with the words of Jesus, not yours until you can prove otherwise.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#251
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,604
113
62
#251
turbosixx said:
You told me what you say but you haven't proved it by scripture.

IF to believe is all that is required, when Jesus instituted water baptism He would have said, "whoever believes will be saved" but that isn't what He said. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, Words are how information is communicated.
I'll stick with the words of Jesus, not yours until you can prove otherwise.
Click to expand...
I have shown you. So have others. You simply don't receive it.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#252
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,341
113
#252
Are we greater than our Lord? "Believe and Be baptized." The first sign that you love the Lord after being saved is to be obedient and baptized. Why would anyone not want to be baptized?
 
T

turbosixx

Active member
#253
Sep 16, 2023
541
123
43
#253
Cameron143 said:
I have shown you. So have others. You simply don't receive it.
Click to expand...
What I've been shown is people have somehow been convinced not to believe what Jesus says.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
I put my trust in Jesus' words.

This baptism discussion looks familiar to me
God: for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Satan: the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

Peter: baptism now saves you
Man: Baptism cannot save you
 
T

turbosixx

Active member
#254
Sep 16, 2023
541
123
43
#254
CS1 said:
Are we greater than our Lord? "Believe and Be baptized." The first sign that you love the Lord after being saved is to be obedient and baptized. Why would anyone not want to be baptized?
Click to expand...
I suggest it is not a sign of being saved. No where in scripture are we told it's "an outward showing" or it's a sign. It is how we are added to Christ and are therefore saved. If baptism comes after being saved, Jesus would have said so, but He doesn't.

Do you believe this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
or this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#255
Mar 1, 2022
19,184
6,604
113
62
#255
turbosixx said:
What I've been shown is people have somehow been convinced not to believe what Jesus says.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
I put my trust in Jesus' words.

This baptism discussion looks familiar to me
God: for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Satan: the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

Peter: baptism now saves you
Man: Baptism cannot save you
Click to expand...
I'm well aware of your reasoning. But it's poor reasoning. Adam and Eve did die. Noone has ever been saved by water baptism.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#256
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,341
113
#256
turbosixx said:
I suggest it is not a sign of being saved. No where in scripture are we told it's "an outward showing" or it's a sign. It is how we are added to Christ and are therefore saved. If baptism comes after being saved, Jesus would have said so, but He doesn't.

Do you believe this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
or this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
Click to expand...
how about Obedience?
 
B

ByTheGraceOfGod

Banned
#260
Oct 18, 2023
449
75
28
#260
NightTwister said:
Who are these mystery Christians who don't want to be baptized? I certainly am not aware of any.
Click to expand...
We know those who refuse to get baptized for their rotten fruit which they burn forever if they don't get baptized and produce good fruit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.