Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

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Mar 4, 2020
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#21
That's another bizarre doctrine on CC. We discussed this earlier, and Paul would not be very happy to see this kind of nonsense: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (1 Cor 1:17).

Paul desired the resurrection of all the saints, and had baptism been a key issue for resurrection, he could not possibly have made the above statement.
Eternal Salvation of the soul and spirit, which comes through faith in the gospel of Christ are a higher priority than salvation of the resurrected body. That’s why Paul said what he said in your quoted verse, I believe. Like Romans 6:4,5 says, resurrection comes through water baptism.

Provide any verse that says resurrection comes from something else and I’ll quickly adapt. If I recall correctly, you couldn’t do that last time we talked about this. If you can’t even do that then it certainly isn’t me who is espousing a bizarre doctrine.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#22
I believe water baptism is necessary to be resurrected.

Romans 6:4,5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

I believe the above verse has to be literal. If it isn’t literal then nothing really happens. I opened a thread on that so if you’d like you can view it.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ssary-to-be-in-the-first-resurrection.205245/
Acts 19:1-6. KJV
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These believers hadn’t even heard of the Holy Spirit since they believed, nor did they have the Holy Spirit. They didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until after their water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and with Paul laying his hands on them.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#23
Think... if a whole group received the Holy Spirit.. and it's called baptism.. most likely it isn't water baptism. It's also most likely not verses about receiving eternal life either.
Acts 19:1-6. KJV
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These believers hadn’t even heard of the Holy Spirit since they believed, nor did they have the Holy Spirit. They didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until after their water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and with Paul laying his hands on them.
 
Jun 28, 2022
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#24
Which answers your question. Baptism is not for salvation but essential for sanctification.
Agreed. If baptism were necessary wouldn't Peter have said so during his ministry from the portico of Solomon in Acts 3?

If salvation was commensurate, I'd think every passage wherein the disciples delivered the gospel message would have included baptism.
Acts 15 and even Romans 4 tells us, no outward act is necessary to be saved.

While plenty of passages tell us salvation is by God's grace alone.
That's pretty clear I think. We are saved by grace. Not of ourselves so none may boast.

https://www.gty.org/library/questions/QA79/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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#25
Maybe the sons of God in the NT are the same, since it would be a strange thing for that identity to change.
A "son of God" refers to anything that comes directly from the Father.
For example...
-angels
-Adam
-born again believers
-Jesus
...are all "sons of God".

The reason Jesus is the only unique "son of God" is because Jesus is uncreated.

That's the short answer. I encourage you to investigate how Scripture demonstrates this (Gen 6, Job 1, 2, 38, Rom 8, Luke 3, John 3) :)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#26
Agreed. If baptism were necessary wouldn't Peter have said so during his ministry from the portico of Solomon in Acts 3?

If salvation was commensurate, I'd think every passage wherein the disciples delivered the gospel message would have included baptism.
Acts 15 and even Romans 4 tells us, no outward act is necessary to be saved.

While plenty of passages tell us salvation is by God's grace alone.
That's pretty clear I think. We are saved by grace. Not of ourselves so none may boast.

https://www.gty.org/library/questions/QA79/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation
Depends who the books of the Bible are written to. Not all of them are persuasive speeches meant for unregenerate non-believers. Paul often wrote to established churches who didn’t need further guidance on how exactly to be saved, though we can occasionally find it reiterated what the gospel is or what water baptism is.

There are books that are good for establishing salvation theology and the best books for that are the gospels, Acts, and Romans. They actually say exactly what to do with examples too.

The Biblical example is that believers are water baptized shortly or immediately after they come to believe. Water baptism is an act of faith because it involves obedience.

1 Peter 3:20,21
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Pay attention to that last bit “save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#27
Acts 19:1-6. KJV
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These believers hadn’t even heard of the Holy Spirit since they believed, nor did they have the Holy Spirit. They didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until after their water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and with Paul laying his hands on them.
Yes..after water baptism . . Having believed earlier.

On belief.. each individual indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Although they may not have known that this is what happens at belief.

Then water baptism.. then receiving the Holy Spirit as a group.. different from indwelling.

The Holy Spirit not only indwelling but coming 'in the midst' of a church.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#28
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvaiton.

Water baptism is not.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#29
Yes..after water baptism . . Having believed earlier.

On belief.. each individual indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Although they may not have known that this is what happens at belief.

Then water baptism.. then receiving the Holy Spirit as a group.. different from indwelling.

The Holy Spirit not only indwelling but coming 'in the midst' of a church.
Acts 19:1-6 is a detailed example of how it doesn't happen exactly as you say every time.
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
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#30
Sons of God? Those aren't human. They're what are described in Genesis 6.
Sons of God means true believers:

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
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#31
I believe water baptism is necessary to be resurrected.

Romans 6:4,5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

I believe the above verse has to be literal. If it isn’t literal then nothing really happens. I opened a thread on that so if you’d like you can view it.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ssary-to-be-in-the-first-resurrection.205245/
In my view that depends on what you mean by literal. Christ literally took the sins of his own upon himself, so we are buried with him in that sense. In the sense that he literally took our death upon himself. Further, he literally was raised from the dead. Born again believers take part in his resurrection literally as well, in the sense that since he was resurrected he can now give them of his Spirit to be born from above, so to speak. However, when one is born again, there is a change that various sects and denominations often try to pick apart as occurring separately. They focus on one aspect of the new birth that they notice in scripture and highlight that thing they think is important. In reality, everything kind of occurs together. One of the things that occurs is a person is washed free from the stain of sin. That is what baptism is; not a physical ceremony that washes dirt from the body.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved", meaning he that believes and has been washed free from the stain of sin; not he that believes and has undergone a physical water dunking ceremony.
 

SparkyGreg

New member
Jul 16, 2021
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#32
Many church denominations today have different interpretations of what the Bible says concerning baptism. A good number of church officials place a strong emphasis on baptism and how it relates to salvation. Also, because of the many different denominations in this country, we have different ways of being baptized(being dipped, sprinkled, immersion, etc.). The Bible is pretty clear in defining baptism as an act of immersion. Baptize is from a Greek word meaning, "to submerge in water." Also, baptism by immersion easily identifies Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, Christians are then baptized as a testimony of their faith. While some feel baptism takes on a more important role than faith alone, it is indeed important to the Christian faith but is not dependent upon salvation. Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves". As with every subject matter in scripture, we must take the entire text into account concerning baptism. Salvation is humility, repentance, and the transformation of a new person and not the product of one activity.

Acts 10:44-48 "While Peter spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all of them which heard the word". Receiving the Holy Spirit comes before baptism. Since only a truly saved person can have the Holy Spirit, it would seem that baptism, in this context wasn't needed for the household of Cornelious' to receive the gift of salvation. **Interesting to note that Paul was God's "chosen vessel" to preach the word to the gentiles, but Peter was the first of Jesus' disciples to preach to a gentile family. God chose Peter to bring the Word to Israel at the start of the ministry.

1 Peter 3:21 This is a verse that many turn to who support baptism as necessary for salvation. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth now save us". If we stopped reading at this point, this would seem a bit confusing. Continuing, "(Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". Clearly, we can see here that baptism cannot wash away the "filth of the flesh" or sin that is in our lives, only Jesus can.

Acts 16:30-34 and Acts 18:8 All who hear and receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ are fit candidates for baptism. Hearing, believing, and being baptized is a consistent pattern for Christians.

Acts 19:1-5 Another passage that can be confusing if we focus on just one single text in the story. This was Paul's third missionary journey in which he meets some men who were "disciples", that is believers but had been baptized under John's baptism. Notice that it is recorded that they were "believers" in Christ. Their salvation was secure, but many interpret this passage as meaning the men were not saved and were the reason why Paul had to baptize them again. This was now the church age in which Jesus left us with a "comforter", that is the Holy Spirit. The men had taken the first step in the repentance of sins, but Christians are baptized for their faith in Jesus. The men were living under the Old Testament covenant. Paul recognizes this, thus he baptized them under the new covenant.

The book of Ephesians chapter two explains salvation by grace through faith very well and never mentions baptism is a means for salvation. The Grace of God is the expression of His love toward the undeserving. Those who deserve the Lake of fire, obtain Heaven. Faith is humanity's response to God's Word and His gift of salvation. Baptism is a "work" and since chapter 2 of Ephesians tells us "not of works", one can conclude that we cannot earn our way to salvation, through baptism or any other kind of "works". When a believer submits for a baptism, they are buried as a dead person, but then raised up new. They are proclaiming their faith in Jesus' death and resurrection as the means by which they are saved from the burning Lake of fire. The unbelievers should not be baptized at all, but the saved ought to be baptized as a matter of obedience(Jesus did it) and testimony. Christian baptism should be a part of their life, but to make it a means of salvation is to muddle the Gospel of Grace.

I see you do not discuss:
John 3:5, 6. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Clearly Jesus thought Baptism is important. Why would he command it to be done just as a sign of faith when He commissions his disciple to make disciples "baptizing them" Matthew 28. Baptism creates faith not just proves faith. And "all nations" includes everyone in the nation.
That means those who do not believe yet like babies:
Mark 10:14, 15. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. The Greek term for little children refers to any child including babies. Little children can be part of the kingdom of God. How- Baptism. Luke 18:16 Jesus wanted little children to be brought to Him.
Matthew 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Acts 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#33
That's another bizarre doctrine on CC. We discussed this earlier, and Paul would not be very happy to see this kind of nonsense: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (1 Cor 1:17).

Paul desired the resurrection of all the saints, and had baptism been a key issue for resurrection, he could not possibly have made the above statement.
Well Jesus did not baptise anyone either. Does that make it null and void.
According to the gospel he commanded it to be done to all that believe.
Now heres a few questions for you....would you tell a newbie in CHRIST that you dont have to be baptised?
Would you argue the same as you posted saying it was the solid truth that you found. If so is this the gospel message that we were called to preach?
Jesus was to fulfill all that was required...are we to fulfill all that is commanded?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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#34
Many church denominations today have different interpretations of what the Bible says concerning baptism. A good number of church officials place a strong emphasis on baptism and how it relates to salvation. Also, because of the many different denominations in this country, we have different ways of being baptized(being dipped, sprinkled, immersion, etc.). The Bible is pretty clear in defining baptism as an act of immersion. Baptize is from a Greek word meaning, "to submerge in water."
This is where things get murky and I believe alot of confusion comes in. Actually the greek word Baptizo. from whence the english word baptize comes from. Means to be submerged. Ir immersed. or placed into. It can also mean to be overwhelmed.

Water is just one of the many things a person can be baptized into.

it is when we add the word water and say that is what it means that we run into error

Also, baptism by immersion easily identifies Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, Christians are then baptized as a testimony of their faith. While some feel baptism takes on a more important role than faith alone, it is indeed important to the Christian faith but is not dependent upon salvation. Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves". As with every subject matter in scripture, we must take the entire text into account concerning baptism. Salvation is humility, repentance, and the transformation of a new person and not the product of one activity.

Acts 10:44-48 "While Peter spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all of them which heard the word". Receiving the Holy Spirit comes before baptism. Since only a truly saved person can have the Holy Spirit, it would seem that baptism, in this context wasn't needed for the household of Cornelious' to receive the gift of salvation. **Interesting to note that Paul was God's "chosen vessel" to preach the word to the gentiles, but Peter was the first of Jesus' disciples to preach to a gentile family. God chose Peter to bring the Word to Israel at the start of the ministry.

1 Peter 3:21 This is a verse that many turn to who support baptism as necessary for salvation. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth now save us". If we stopped reading at this point, this would seem a bit confusing. Continuing, "(Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". Clearly, we can see here that baptism cannot wash away the "filth of the flesh" or sin that is in our lives, only Jesus can.

Acts 16:30-34 and Acts 18:8 All who hear and receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ are fit candidates for baptism. Hearing, believing, and being baptized is a consistent pattern for Christians.

Acts 19:1-5 Another passage that can be confusing if we focus on just one single text in the story. This was Paul's third missionary journey in which he meets some men who were "disciples", that is believers but had been baptized under John's baptism. Notice that it is recorded that they were "believers" in Christ. Their salvation was secure, but many interpret this passage as meaning the men were not saved and were the reason why Paul had to baptize them again. This was now the church age in which Jesus left us with a "comforter", that is the Holy Spirit. The men had taken the first step in the repentance of sins, but Christians are baptized for their faith in Jesus. The men were living under the Old Testament covenant. Paul recognizes this, thus he baptized them under the new covenant.

The book of Ephesians chapter two explains salvation by grace through faith very well and never mentions baptism is a means for salvation. The Grace of God is the expression of His love toward the undeserving. Those who deserve the Lake of fire, obtain Heaven. Faith is humanity's response to God's Word and His gift of salvation. Baptism is a "work" and since chapter 2 of Ephesians tells us "not of works", one can conclude that we cannot earn our way to salvation, through baptism or any other kind of "works". When a believer submits for a baptism, they are buried as a dead person, but then raised up new. They are proclaiming their faith in Jesus' death and resurrection as the means by which they are saved from the burning Lake of fire. The unbelievers should not be baptized at all, but the saved ought to be baptized as a matter of obedience(Jesus did it) and testimony. Christian baptism should be a part of their life, but to make it a means of salvation is to muddle the Gospel of Grace.
I agree with the rest.

Baptism is required. Just not water. Spirit baptism into christ (Not water) is what saves..see rom 6, 1 cor 12, gal 5 etc etc.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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#35
I believe water baptism is necessary to be resurrected.

Romans 6:4,5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

I believe the above verse has to be literal. If it isn’t literal then nothing really happens. I opened a thread on that so if you’d like you can view it.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ssary-to-be-in-the-first-resurrection.205245/
that is spirit baptism, not water

Your pastor can not baptize you into death, or into Christ. Only God can do this. this is the HS baptism John the baptist spoke of "he will baptize you with the HS"
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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#36
Paul says it best

Titus 3: 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism is a work of righteousness) but by his mercy he saved us through the washing and renewal of the holy spirit

washing of water by the word.
Born again of the spirit.

Both in one passage. a spiritual baptism and new birth given to those who look up to the cross. and through faith recieve christ. Just like Jesus said in John 3.

No water baptism anywhere
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
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#37
Someone has mentioned: "This is where things get murky and I believe alot of confusion comes in. Actually the greek word Baptizo. from whence the english word baptize comes from. Means to be submerged. Ir immersed. or placed into. It can also mean to be overwhelmed."

Here is what I found as part of the concordance definition of the Greek word baptize (baptizo):

"to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe"

Not sure why they left out the clean and wash part. Very important that, because the Bible says of believers,

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."
"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
"Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all."

In saying that believers are washed and clean, we see this fits in with the Greek definition of baptizo. Further, we should understand that this means to be washed free from the stain or penalty of sin, not washed with physical water from physical dirt.
 
Jun 28, 2022
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#38
Depends who the books of the Bible are written to. Not all of them are persuasive speeches meant for unregenerate non-believers. Paul often wrote to established churches who didn’t need further guidance on how exactly to be saved, though we can occasionally find it reiterated what the gospel is or what water baptism is.

There are books that are good for establishing salvation theology and the best books for that are the gospels, Acts, and Romans. They actually say exactly what to do with examples too.

The Biblical example is that believers are water baptized shortly or immediately after they come to believe. Water baptism is an act of faith because it involves obedience.

1 Peter 3:20,21
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Pay attention to that last bit “save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”
Depends who the books of the Bible are written to. Not all of them are persuasive speeches meant for unregenerate non-believers. Paul often wrote to established churches who didn’t need further guidance on how exactly to be saved, though we can occasionally find it reiterated what the gospel is or what water baptism is.

There are books that are good for establishing salvation theology and the best books for that are the gospels, Acts, and Romans. They actually say exactly what to do with examples too.

The Biblical example is that believers are water baptized shortly or immediately after they come to believe. Water baptism is an act of faith because it involves obedience.

1 Peter 3:20,21
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Pay attention to that last bit “save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”
We are saved by grace. Not water. And the books you refer to there, Acts and Romans, are books that speak of salvation yet in some chapters at the same time say nothing of baptism.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#39
That's another bizarre doctrine on CC. We discussed this earlier, and Paul would not be very happy to see this kind of nonsense: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (1 Cor 1:17).
..
First consider that Paul was told by Ananias to submit to baptism in order for his sins to be washed away. (Acts 22:16) Considering this alone, it is inconceivable that Paul's comment should be understood to mean baptism was not necessary.

One can only come to the conclusion that baptism is not necessary if the referenced verse is taken out of context. If Paul was not supposed to baptize people why did he disobey? In verses 12-16, Paul mentions those in the Corinthian church he baptized. Also, others are referenced elsewhere in scripture. What is also relevant, and in keeping with his statement, is at times he preached and others administered baptisms:

Acts 19:1-6 Paul baptizes 12 Ephesus disciples
Acts 16:28-33 Jailer/family
Acts 16:14-15 Lydia/family
Acts 18:8 Crispus, (Paul baptized this leader of the synagogue and someone else baptized members of Crispus’ household and other Corinthian believers)
Gaius (Paul baptized) Gaius referenced in Acts 19:29.



"And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:14-16
 
Jun 28, 2022
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#40
A "son of God" refers to anything that comes directly from the Father.
For example...
-angels
-Adam
-born again believers
-Jesus
...are all "sons of God".

The reason Jesus is the only unique "son of God" is because Jesus is uncreated.

That's the short answer. I encourage you to investigate how Scripture demonstrates this (Gen 6, Job 1, 2, 38, Rom 8, Luke 3, John 3) :)
It's odd though that in the old testament Sons of God were the angels that found human women attractive and came down to them. Yet we humans are also sons of God?
The same title?