Is baptism required for salvation?

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

Should have known you would reject anything but immersion. All gospel preaching churches disagreeing with you are absolutely wrong according to you. You ignore the Fact that the early elders created the Apostles Creed, the 2 Nicene Creeds and the Athenasian Creed to define the beliefs a person must have to be a Christian. There were many diverse issues where there was disagreements, just like today, therefore the rule was to agree to disagree. You being such an opinionated person can't accept that. It is your belief and everyone else is Wrong and agreeing to disagree to you is wrong. Everybody disagreeing with you is wrong. Must be nice to be so perfect in your understanding of scripture.

There are three modes (or methods) of water baptism used in Christian churches today:
1. immersion (in which the person is completely submerged - dunking)
2. affusion (that is, pouring),
3. aspersion (sprinkling).

Accept the fact that many gospel preaching denominations disagree with yoy!!

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

Jesus gave the great commission to the desciples. I stand by what Jesus said. He doesn't mention mode. Baptism is an issue that was misused on me. I was baptised 4 times because as a child my parents changed churches and previous churches babtisms were rejected. Therefore I am very sensitive about the issue. There are disagreements about the issue. One end of the spectrum says it is required for salvation and these churches baptised immediately. Others feel it isn't required for salvation but is commanded to be done. Therefore they schedule the time later at an agreed upon date.

Matthew 28 NIV
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

AMPC
The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He]. 18 Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations [help the people to learn of Me, believe in Me, and obey My words], baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always [remaining with you perpetually—regardless of circumstance, and on every occasion], even to the end of the age.”

fredoheaven · Sep 18, 2018

Matthew 28:19-20 Evangelize the lost, Baptized the converts and teach to observe all things...
Water Baptism does not save. It is required for the saved, as his first step of obedience.

dcontroversal · Sep 18, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Listen carefully...I could care less what you think or peddle.....immersion is the only form of acceptable baptism...end of story....we have had this dance before and I have no need to argue with one who rejects the very premise of baptism and what it represents....

Now.....do not respond to me any more...I am tired of your deceit, your rejection of the word of God and the fact that you peddle some man made creed over the bible and the verbiage of the bible......end of story!!

mailmandan · Sep 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:

Good morning!

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (NASB)

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For [godly] sorrow that is in accord with the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death. (AMP)

Feeling sorry for our sins "in of itself" apart from a "godly sorrow" which produces a "change of mind" leading to salvation then results in a change of actions (fruit) is not repentance.

Notice that 1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" is IN CONTRAST WITH - "If we say that we have no sin (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (vs. 8) and "If we say that we have not sinned (past tense), we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" (vs. 10). *Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness.

I'm yet to hear you teach salvation by works on CC. In regards to the essence of faith, in Hebrews 11:1, we read - "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

Good works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith, yet works-salvationists "confuse" the essence of faith with the fruit of faith and that's how they end up teaching salvation by works. I'll give you an example below of how people do this. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..

His argument about not teaching salvation by works, followed by saying that faith is defined as and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. I've heard certain individuals say that we are saved through faith "infused" with works and others say we are saved through faith "conjoined" with works.

Works-salvationists are always trying to find a way to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, yet the Bible clearly makes a "distinction" between faith "and" works and teaches that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

notuptome · Sep 18, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Go ahead and baptize them in water but if you fail to disciple them they will not comprehend the meaning of their water baptism.

English is a language that fails to convey the underlying meaning often contained in the original Greek. Discipleship brings those meanings into the light. Shallow thinking immediately sees water when ever the word baptize appears.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

GodsGrace101 · Sep 18, 2018

mailmandan said:

I just got here...just wait!

Regarding being sorry for our sins....I agree with what you posted, in fact I wrote about this, maybe on a different thread, and said exactly what you said. Remorse is worldy, being sorrowful for our sins is Christianly. Sometimes we use different words but mean the same thing; I've found this to be true on these forums.

Regarding works,,, You haven't heard me say yet that I believe in salvation by works because I don't.
But soon enough you and I will be arguing about this and I really do find it difficult to understand why.

I'm afraid I agree with that Catholic you spoke to...
Faith infused with works or faith conjoined with works.

Only faith can save us. No amount of works can save us...God wants our heart and not our works which truly are as filthy rags to Him who needs nothing from us but our love for Him - since that is the main reason for our living and being alive - to worship the God who made us.
This would cover Ephesians 2:8-9 of course.

But what about verse 10?
Does it not state that God has prepared works for us?
Is belief alone sufficient or does our faith bring about some works?
Maybe we could call them the good deeds that God desires for us to do?

Some of the deeds the Catholic spoke of are indeed works if he feels one will be lost if they do NOT do them...for instance, receiving communion, being baptized, attending Mass or anything else I do in order to REMAIN SAVED. However, if we love Jesus we WILL do what HE commanded of us...if we do not obey Him and just live as we want to, will we still be saved?

2 Corinthians 10:5
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Revelation 14:12
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Romans 1:5
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

John 14:15
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.

Hevosmies · Sep 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:

I just got here...just wait!

Regarding being sorry for our sins....I agree with what you posted, in fact I wrote about this, maybe on a different thread, and said exactly what you said. Remorse is worldy, being sorrowful for our sins is Christianly. Sometimes we use different words but mean the same thing; I've found this to be true on these forums.

Regarding works,,, You haven't heard me say yet that I believe in salvation by works because I don't.
But soon enough you and I will be arguing about this and I really do find it difficult to understand why.

I'm afraid I agree with that Catholic you spoke to...
Faith infused with works or faith conjoined with works.

Only faith can save us. No amount of works can save us...God wants our heart and not our works which truly are as filthy rags to Him who needs nothing from us but our love for Him - since that is the main reason for our living and being alive - to worship the God who made us.
This would cover Ephesians 2:8-9 of course.

But what about verse 10?
Does it not state that God has prepared works for us?
Is belief alone sufficient or does our faith bring about some works?
Maybe we could call them the good deeds that God desires for us to do?

Some of the deeds the Catholic spoke of are indeed works if he feels one will be lost if they do NOT do them...for instance, receiving communion, being baptized, attending Mass or anything else I do in order to REMAIN SAVED. However, if we love Jesus we WILL do what HE commanded of us...if we do not obey Him and just live as we want to, will we still be saved?

2 Corinthians 10:5
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Revelation 14:12
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Romans 1:5
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

John 14:15
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.

Good post! I will also add that faith isnt an intellectual agreement with facts about Jesus.
A living faith is well defined in Hebrews chapter11 also known as the "hall of faith".

As Paul says in galatians, its all about a "... faith which worketh by love."

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Since you are a Solo Scriptorum person back up your assertion that baptism is immersion only! Where in the Bible does it state this? Book, chapter and verses required for each location.

GodsGrace101 · Sep 18, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Wow. Not only that, but wouldn't that poster's belief make baptism by immersion a work?
Salvation by works...
What if someone wanted to be baptized and there was no deep water around?
Here's what the Didache says...a document written about 90 AD or even earlier, and what was taught by the Apostles:

Chapter 7 verses 1-4

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

Fix the server from being so slow at times or get rid of the 5 minute rule!! I tried to edit the above post and the server responded extremely slowly putting up each letter about a couple seconds apart!! It is obvious that you need more computers tied together in a farm to handle peak loads. Any changes to one is reflected in the others. All major corporations use this method. PC's are not that expensive. The new ones are much faster.

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:

Wow. Not only that, but wouldn't that poster's belief make baptism by immersion a work?
Salvation by works...
What if someone wanted to be baptized and there was no deep water around?
Here's what the Didache says...a document written about 90 AD or even earlier, and what was taught by the Apostles:

Chapter 7 verses 1-4

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Scripture references please. Keep in mind that in areas it was almost desert. Where are they supposed to be baptized then.

GodsGrace101 · Sep 18, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Right.
Faith is a word of action. Everyone in the O.T. that had faith, acted upon it.
It requires movement....

If I have faith that the elevator will get me to the upper floors, I have to STEP INTO the elevator or it never will. My faith in the elevator requires action on my part.

The Greek word used most often in the New Testament for "faith" is pistis. It indicates a belief or conviction with the complementary idea of trust. Faith is not a mere intellectual stance, but a belief that leads to action. As James 2:26 says, "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." James talks about demonstrating his faith by his works. Often what we do says more about what we believe than what we say.

source: https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-of-faith.html

GodsGrace101 · Sep 18, 2018

Endoscopy said:

What's the problem?
Those that came directly after Jesus and taught are not good enough for you?
Immersion means dunking in water.
You yourself have just stated that we're speaking about a desert area...so, right, what was there to do?
NOT baptize?
One waited to get to some type of water. Do you also believe that if we're not baptized in deep water it's not legitimate?
So you also believe baptism is a work and not a privilege?

One does what one can and God will accept the good intent.

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

You referenced chapter 7 without referencing the book!!

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:

What book. You only state chapter and verse no book. I learned long ago that on almost all issues you must take all all verses on a subject in context and with all relevant verses on the same subject in context as well. Thus a systematic theology book is required. It goes topic by topic and lists ALL verses on the topic. They are a large book. I have a kindle version but kindle doesn't work well with reference books. Can't afford to buy a hard bound version now. They are big and expensive.

GodsGrace101 · Sep 18, 2018

Endoscopy said:

I'm referring to the Didache which is a Christian document.
Chapter 7 verses, or rules, 4-7

Here's a link. It's a very interesting document. It was believed that it was written between 70 - 120 AD but has now been believed to have been written close to 90AD or sooner.

I also accept the bible as the final authority, but I've never read anything in the Didache that goes against the bible...If you do, I wish you'd let me know, but I doubt it. An explanation of the Didache is at the bottom of the link. (didakay)

https://jesus.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/didache.pdf

Endoscopy · Sep 18, 2018

notuptome said:

That is why I use the Amplified Classic version as a study Bible. It takes a word in the original language and when necessary provides the additional meanings in parentheses. Here is John 3:16 for example. Notice the depth of meaning it provides.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

Hevosmies · Sep 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:

Me personally I believe baptism is by immersion, but I also understand why the Didache states what it states. If you are locked up in a communist country, you might not be able to find anywhere to immerse in, so the pouring water three times on the head will do, and I believe the Lord acceps that as a valid baptism. Lord knows our hearts and our intentions.

I hope we all agree there.

One thing I will say however: In the Scriptures I never see anyone baptized who does not yet have faith. Meaning: Someone who was just born, and is baptized, is that a valid baptism? There is a debate there. I believe its not scriptural. First faith, then baptism. Acts 8:37 makes it clear. What prevents me from being baptized? IF you believe you can!

NayborBear · Sep 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:

I agree with the "current definition", of what the term "repentance" means these days! It seems to be more based on John the Baptists' teaching's of "baptism" for forgiveness of ones' sin. And, indeed Jesus taught that one should forgive 70 x 7, right?

In this light, it would stand up to reason, that many, if not all, who have been "baptized", have merely merged Jesus' teaching concerning forgiveness, with Johns' "water" baptism, for the same reason/s! Therefore, "fancying themselves", as having received the "Gift of the Holy Spirit!" When one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit? It is an "event" one does not ever forget! Does this mean that one should be "re-baptized?!" It seems to "many many" people, that this would be the case! I've seen, as well as heard of people who will be "re-baptized", every time they change churches! And, worse? A pastor, or "church leadership", might require one to be re-baptized, before coming a "member" of that particular assemblage! (and people wonder why I won't/don't attend, or become a "member", of any particular church?

)

I also agree that to "turn away from" "a/any", PARTICULAR "sin", takes not only "believing!?" It also requires CONSCIOUS EFFORT/S" in doing so! Which, by definition, is called what? WORKS! Right? The "reward" in a successful completion from ones' "labors" in this "turning away?" Is not only (a) "healing", but, ALSO, "WORKS! ATTRIBUTABLE TOWARDS RIGHTEOUSNESS!" Just like that which God attributed to Abraham!

Unlike Abraham, however, as (how can I say) "world events", have taken "quite a tumble" since then. We "gentiles", are only "partially" saved, by being "awarded" with one's successful "turning away" from any particular sin!

And, we as "Christians", should not be deceived, nor allow ourselves to be deceived, with, or by "Love covers a MULTITUDE of sin/s!" Because, "love" doesn't cover EVERY sin! Just a whole lot of 'em!

Some of the "sin/s" Love doesn't cover can be found here:

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

When this is allowed? THIS is what transpires! Not only in oneself! Yea, also in any particular assemblage of believers!

Jude
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The good news, however, is that, we as "gentiles" of the "faith", are definitely having a VERY POSITIVE "Impact" against these ones! As is "readily available" to be seen! It shouldn't "fall along Party lines." As God don't much fancy "poilitics!" Yet, it seems that as the "ax is falling?" (Psalms 110:1b) There appears to be divisions from that which one political party is professing, and the "other" party, yes?
Divisions even which a "blind" man can see, No?

You may be wondering, what this has to do regarding baptism for salvation, verses baptism for forgiveness?

QUITE A BIT! Actually!

Is baptism required for salvation?

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