Is baptism required for salvation?
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In John 17, Jesus' prayer can be broken down into three parts.
1) He prays for Himself (vss. 1-5)
2) He prays for His disciples (vss. 6-19) [11 men]
3) He prays for all believers (vss. 20-26) [You and me]
By the way, this is how we should pray . . . for ourselves, then for our nearest and dearest, then for others.
The phrase, "as many as thou hast given him" comes up seven times in this chapter (twice in chapter 6, verse 9, verse 11, verse 24).
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37).
However, it doesn't say what you want it to say. Predestination and election are all founded upon the foreknowledge of God . . . in that order. Jesus knows how many will be saved from the foundation of the world. It doesn't mean that these are specially chosen while the rest go to hell. It means the number is already known. He knew my name before He even said, "Let there be light."
At this stage of Christ's life . . . He did not know . . . He limited His knowledge.
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name" (Philippians 2:5-9).
Does it give a Calvinist some kind of evil pride to think that he is CHOSEN while his neighbor is destined for hell? Seems like it to me . . .
1) He prays for Himself (vss. 1-5)
2) He prays for His disciples (vss. 6-19) [11 men]
3) He prays for all believers (vss. 20-26) [You and me]
By the way, this is how we should pray . . . for ourselves, then for our nearest and dearest, then for others.
The phrase, "as many as thou hast given him" comes up seven times in this chapter (twice in chapter 6, verse 9, verse 11, verse 24).
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37).
However, it doesn't say what you want it to say. Predestination and election are all founded upon the foreknowledge of God . . . in that order. Jesus knows how many will be saved from the foundation of the world. It doesn't mean that these are specially chosen while the rest go to hell. It means the number is already known. He knew my name before He even said, "Let there be light."
At this stage of Christ's life . . . He did not know . . . He limited His knowledge.
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name" (Philippians 2:5-9).
Does it give a Calvinist some kind of evil pride to think that he is CHOSEN while his neighbor is destined for hell? Seems like it to me . . .
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Sure thing boy, looky here:
baptizó: to dip, sink
Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.
Moreover, the word baptizo is NEVER translated as "associate with something" and it wouldnt make any sense to use that translation in any place where it occurs. You are simply wrong and are teaching nonsense. Its because you dont speak greek and have no idea how the words are used in language, so stop pretending that you do. You are embarrasing yourself.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Looky there, it says THEY CAME UNTO A CERTAIN WATER, and then he said what prevents me from being baptized? It doesnt say to associate with or teach or any of the nonsense that you suggested.
Consider yourself educated. And if you continue teaching this falsehood you are not doing so in ignorance, but are just blatantly teaching falsehoods.
Here it is one more time so we can put to rest this claim that nobody in church history could of ever even dreamed of:
G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
baptizó: to dip, sink
Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.
Moreover, the word baptizo is NEVER translated as "associate with something" and it wouldnt make any sense to use that translation in any place where it occurs. You are simply wrong and are teaching nonsense. Its because you dont speak greek and have no idea how the words are used in language, so stop pretending that you do. You are embarrasing yourself.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Looky there, it says THEY CAME UNTO A CERTAIN WATER, and then he said what prevents me from being baptized? It doesnt say to associate with or teach or any of the nonsense that you suggested.
Consider yourself educated. And if you continue teaching this falsehood you are not doing so in ignorance, but are just blatantly teaching falsehoods.
Here it is one more time so we can put to rest this claim that nobody in church history could of ever even dreamed of:
G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
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It is real plain. I do not see how you think the "as many as" could be the same as "all flesh". All flesh denotes all mankind. As many as, denotes a part of all flesh. Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, and "as many as" were ordained to eternal life believed. Was all that heard this, "ordained to eternal life"? Rev 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Does God rebuke and chasten all mankind, or a part of them? Ps 73:5 - They (the wicked) are not PLAGUED=Strong's concordance = divinely punished. Does God love all mankind, if so, please explain this verse.
Faith and belief is not the cause that saves you eternally. 1 Cor 2:14 says the natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot discern spiritual things, he thinks they are foolish. If it is by God's grace, and it is, and faith and belief is a requirement to have that grace, then it is no more grace. The only way that the natural man can become saved and be spiritual is explained in Eph 2:5, when he is yet "dead in sins" with no ability to respond to anything that is spiritual, God regenerates him and puts his Spirit within him. When God makes alive those who are spiritually it is strictly by God's grace without the help of man or woman.
One characteristic concerning the Calvinist and their participation in just about any Christian community. When they argue Jesus died only for those the Father gave him, which isn't in the Bible, the same Calvinist is absolutely certain they themselves are one of those.
My mom knew a Jehovah witness that would constantly stop by her parents house to gain converts to the temple.
JW's know there are those who are the elect and shall see Heaven. And in their teachings they also are assured that number does not include them. Why then do these people try to knock on doors and gain more people to follow a tradition that will gain them nothing for their strict earthly obedience?
Same with Calvinists. They eradicate the import of John 3:16 while living assured they are one of the elect. And then they join forums where Christians participate in Bible discussions so as to try to tell us we're not in their number.
Sorry, Heaven's full.
Or, recall that "Members Only" jacket years ago? That.
If there are the elect that Jesus only died for and God's grace saves and we have nothing to do with it, why proselytize? God's elect are already covered and assured Heaven.
Calvinists are fun.
My mom knew a Jehovah witness that would constantly stop by her parents house to gain converts to the temple.
JW's know there are those who are the elect and shall see Heaven. And in their teachings they also are assured that number does not include them. Why then do these people try to knock on doors and gain more people to follow a tradition that will gain them nothing for their strict earthly obedience?
Same with Calvinists. They eradicate the import of John 3:16 while living assured they are one of the elect. And then they join forums where Christians participate in Bible discussions so as to try to tell us we're not in their number.
Sorry, Heaven's full.
Or, recall that "Members Only" jacket years ago? That.
If there are the elect that Jesus only died for and God's grace saves and we have nothing to do with it, why proselytize? God's elect are already covered and assured Heaven.
Calvinists are fun.
One characteristic concerning the Calvinist and their participation in just about any Christian community. When they argue Jesus died only for those the Father gave him, which isn't in the Bible, the same Calvinist is absolutely certain they themselves are one of those.
My mom knew a Jehovah witness that would constantly stop by her parents house to gain converts to the temple.
JW's know there are those who are the elect and shall see Heaven. And in their teachings they also are assured that number does not include them. Why then do these people try to knock on doors and gain more people to follow a tradition that will gain them nothing for their strict earthly obedience?
Same with Calvinists. They eradicate the import of John 3:16 while living assured they are one of the elect. And then they join forums where Christians participate in Bible discussions so as to try to tell us we're not in their number.
Sorry, Heaven's full.
Or, recall that "Members Only" jacket years ago? That.
If there are the elect that Jesus only died for and God's grace saves and we have nothing to do with it, why proselytize? God's elect are already covered and assured Heaven.
Calvinists are fun.
My mom knew a Jehovah witness that would constantly stop by her parents house to gain converts to the temple.
JW's know there are those who are the elect and shall see Heaven. And in their teachings they also are assured that number does not include them. Why then do these people try to knock on doors and gain more people to follow a tradition that will gain them nothing for their strict earthly obedience?
Same with Calvinists. They eradicate the import of John 3:16 while living assured they are one of the elect. And then they join forums where Christians participate in Bible discussions so as to try to tell us we're not in their number.
Sorry, Heaven's full.
Or, recall that "Members Only" jacket years ago? That.
If there are the elect that Jesus only died for and God's grace saves and we have nothing to do with it, why proselytize? God's elect are already covered and assured Heaven.
Calvinists are fun.
Yes, looking back, I seed that you quoted John 6:37, but not 39. 39 says that he will not loose even one of them that he died for.
Yes, but Jesus was both man and God the 33 years he was on earth and had all foreknowledge, except the day that he will come back to collect the elect, only his Father knows that.
Yes, but Jesus was both man and God the 33 years he was on earth and had all foreknowledge, except the day that he will come back to collect the elect, only his Father knows that.
He does now, He didn't know then . . . He purposely limited His Deity so that He would walk those 33 years as a man without an advantage of being God. True, His hypostatic union never ended - He was still God and man - but He clothed it. Look at what happened on top of the mount when He revealed His glory to the disciples.
Israel was elected, or more truly - Abraham was elected.
New Testament saints are foreknown. Do you ever find predestination or election spoken of prior to foreknowledge?
Israel was elected, or more truly - Abraham was elected.
New Testament saints are foreknown. Do you ever find predestination or election spoken of prior to foreknowledge?
Well smarty pants your greek is a little short on accuracy.
907 βαπτίζω baptizo bap-tid’-zo
from a derivative of 911; verb; TDNT-1:529,92; {See TDNT 123 }
AV-baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
++++
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows
the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. #Mr 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!
(Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989).
If you baptizo a person in water they drown. You bapto in water. Baptizo in Holy Spirit or as in this case knowledge of the doctrines of the faith.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
907 βαπτίζω baptizo bap-tid’-zo
from a derivative of 911; verb; TDNT-1:529,92; {See TDNT 123 }
AV-baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
++++
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows
the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. #Mr 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!
(Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989).
If you baptizo a person in water they drown. You bapto in water. Baptizo in Holy Spirit or as in this case knowledge of the doctrines of the faith.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Mark is also talking about WATER baptism there. Thats just how the word is almost always used in the NT. I showed an example in acts where it specifically says HEY here is water, what prevents me from being baptized? Nothing i believe in Jesus. Dunk!
Now if baptism just meant associating with Jesus in some deep heart faith,, why is water required for this ethiopian gentleman in Acts? Makes no sense.
But I rest my case, this conversation is futile. You will most likely keep teaching this error, but lucky for us most people still get water baptized .
Now if baptism just meant associating with Jesus in some deep heart faith,, why is water required for this ethiopian gentleman in Acts? Makes no sense.
But I rest my case, this conversation is futile. You will most likely keep teaching this error, but lucky for us most people still get water baptized .
Go ahead and tell us God meant to say what you believe.Maybe learn what the elect really means.
Because the Calvin's god has no place in scripture.
Not to mention this often overlooked fact: Do we agree there are lots of different doctrines within christianity? Even within reformed circles? Yup that is an undisputed fact. Now if God grants repentance and faith to us unconditionally, you would think God would also give us 100% correct doctrine AND perfect obedience.
It doesn't play out in the real world, only in theological ivorytowers. It takes the love of God out of the equation.
God tells us to pray for ALL MEN, Jesus tasted death for ALL MEN, for the world, not for our sins only but of the whole world, He calls all to repentance and wishes none perish.
Now how much more clear could it be?
Why do people only quote one half of that verse?
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).
Belief and baptism are instantaneous. When someone receives Christ they are baptized into His death . . . simple. If someone is lost (believeth not) it doesn't matter whether they are baptized or not. If the Spirit doesn't wash them, they are still unclean.
Frankly, I'm not sure the hearers even understood what Jesus was telling them. Christ had not yet gone to the cross and resurrected. It is stated that when Christ was arrested - they did not know what was happening.,
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).
Belief and baptism are instantaneous. When someone receives Christ they are baptized into His death . . . simple. If someone is lost (believeth not) it doesn't matter whether they are baptized or not. If the Spirit doesn't wash them, they are still unclean.
Frankly, I'm not sure the hearers even understood what Jesus was telling them. Christ had not yet gone to the cross and resurrected. It is stated that when Christ was arrested - they did not know what was happening.,
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U
I think it is otherwise, it is the modern day western mindset being misapplied to the true cultural historic understanding.
Sane' (saw-nay') is the Hebrew word for hate which means enemy or foe. The word "hate" is not translated as we understand with a western mindset that's connected to our passion and emotion, but from a Hebraic understanding it means to distance oneself or to not prefer. (Luke 14:26)
Sadly this faulty understanding is what gives rise to street preachers holding signs promoting a God of hatred
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8
Sane' (saw-nay') is the Hebrew word for hate which means enemy or foe. The word "hate" is not translated as we understand with a western mindset that's connected to our passion and emotion, but from a Hebraic understanding it means to distance oneself or to not prefer. (Luke 14:26)
Sadly this faulty understanding is what gives rise to street preachers holding signs promoting a God of hatred
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8
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Take it to an English scholar.
"As many as" is the same as, "as many as". Lol
You can change it if you want, I really don't care.
I understand English and I understand exactly
what this disciple is saying. You see, here's the thing,
I don't have to change it for it to fit perfectly into
my theology. I don't have to add to it or take away
from it. It is simply stated and very easy to understand.
"As many as" is the same as, "as many as". Lol
You can change it if you want, I really don't care.
I understand English and I understand exactly
what this disciple is saying. You see, here's the thing,
I don't have to change it for it to fit perfectly into
my theology. I don't have to add to it or take away
from it. It is simply stated and very easy to understand.