Is Believing/Behaving Correctly a Work/Debt

[rogerg]

I think that you should have major problems with how you are interpreting those verses as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, but even if your interpretation were correct, then according to God's word in Deuteronomy 13:1-5, you should consider the author of Hebrews to be a false prophet who was not speaking for God, so we should still obey what God has commanded regardless of whether or not your interpretation of those verses is correct. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if it comes down to a choice between obeying the book of Hebrews or obeying what God has commanded, then we should obey what God has commanded.

Wrong! You can't pick and choose which books of the Bible you will accept as Scripture. God informed us that He moved all of its writers to write exactly what He wanted written. There is no schism between Hebrews and the other books - they
are all in perfect harmony with each other. Should a schism exist, then none of its books, not just Hebrews, can be trusted as the supreme and sole spiritual authority, and all of the spiritual truth conveyed must then be discarded - it is an all or nothing proposition.
Do you realize the Bible was written by God from beginning to end, to be solely about Christ - that He was the reason for it all:

[Psa 40:6-8 KJV]
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.


[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[2Pe 3:15-16 KJV]
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[MerSee]

Regarding the book of Hebrews, I am under no misunderstanding (if that's your point). Instead, I think you just refuse to accept what was written there - that through Jesus Christ, regarding salvation, for those whom He has chosen to salvation, for them law has been abolished - they are no longer under it but under grace.
Do you not believe that Jesus is come and that He is both God and Saviour - that only through and by Him are we saved and not by any of our actions?

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Rom 10:4 KJV] 4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[Heb 7:12-14 KJV]
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

THE NEW TESTAMENT LAW IS STILL BINDING ON ALL CHRISTIANS.

 

[NightTwister]

Well, we haven't had this one for a while.

 

[rogerg]

THE NEW TESTAMENT LAW IS STILL BINDING ON ALL CHRISTIANS.

No, it is not! The law of works for salvation has been superseded by the law of Christ.

[Gal 2:21 KJV]
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[Rom 10:3-4 KJV]
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[Gal 3:13 KJV]
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Heb 10:29 KJV]
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[MerSee]

No, it is not! The law of works for salvation has been superseded by the law of Christ.

[Gal 2:21 KJV]
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[Rom 10:3-4 KJV]
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[Gal 3:13 KJV]
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Heb 10:29 KJV]
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Can you name me 1 specific New Testament commandment/work you believe is not binding on Christians?

 

[Stan_the_Man]

But in Acts 13:48 we read that it only is given to those who had been ordained to eternal life:

Limited atonement is proven to be false doctrine. It has been debunked and is defunct.

A dead man cannot contribute to the saving of himself.

Sure he can because God's definition os death is spiritual death as in being separated from Him.

The man is not literally dead like lying in a coffin. Limited atonement is false.

Christ alone demonstrated His faith by His works

No, we are called to do what the Lord does and we can - ever read Philippians 4:13 ???

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

then it had better have works with it that are the equal of Christ's works, which, of course, no man could achieve

Man can when the Lord is the One doing His works thru us!

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Great quote from God's all powerful living Word!

 

[rogerg]

Can you name me 1 specific New Testament commandment/work you believe is not binding on Christians?

The law of works

 

[rogerg]

Sure he can because God's definition os death is spiritual death as in being separated from Him.

The man is not literally dead like lying in a coffin. Limited atonement is false.

Yes, spiritually dead. 'dead" in the verse wasn't my word, it was God's. I'm sure He knows what it means
in both the physical and spiritual contexts. So yes, He meant, dead-dead. We can know this because we are told that those
who are saved are made spiritually alive. To be made alive you had to have been dead.
You've tried to change and add to the meaning of the verses.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

No, we are called to do what the Lord does and we can - ever read Philippians 4:13 ???

You actually believe that you can do what Christ did? That's absurd. You can't even understand what He did, no less are able to do it.

Man can when the Lord is the One doing His works thru us!

You actually believe that man can bring forth salvation as Christ did? A hint: no, he can't, and that's an absurd statement.

 

[MerSee]

The law of works

You did not name me 1 specific New Testament commandment/work you believe is not binding on Christians.

The commandments of God are still binding.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Just three verses later, Jesus says (to these people):

"32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven."

What does Jesus mean when He says (to these people), "but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven."

Is Jesus lying to these people; or perhaps yanking their chain? Why is Jesus saying this "to them" (esp. in view of what we know per v.64)?


-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/32/t_concif_1003032

 

[rogerg]

You did not name me 1 specific New Testament commandment/work you believe is not binding on Christians.

The commandments of God are still binding.

None are except for the following. When Christ became High Priest, commandments that went before that were abolished.

[Eph 2:15 KJV] 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

This is now God's commandment - and it is only through and by Christ that we follow it.

[1Jo 3:23 KJV]
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[rogerg]

Just three verses later, Jesus says (to these people):

"32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven."

What does Jesus mean when He says (to these people), "but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven."

Is Jesus lying to these people; or perhaps yanking their chain?

Christ is the true bread.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Christ is the true bread.

Of course.

But that doesn't answer the question.

(note: I added to my post after you grabbed it... see below)



[quoting the part of my post where I'd added something further... (I'm adding the BLUE here)]

"What does Jesus mean when He says (to these people), "but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven."

Is Jesus lying to these people; or perhaps yanking their chain? Why is Jesus saying this "to them" (esp. in view of what we know per v.64)?"

[Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not...]




So, again, "What does Jesus mean when He says (to these people), "but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven."

...in view of the facts regarding the ones He was speaking to here (those who were only coming because of the food, etc... but "went away" and no longer followed Him because of His "hard saying" [note: not "losing salvation"!]).

 

[rogerg]

Of course.

But that doesn't answer the question.

(note: I added to my post after you grabbed it... see below)



[quoting the part of my post where I'd added something further... (I'm adding the BLUE here)]

"What does Jesus mean when He says (to these people), "but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven."

Is Jesus lying to these people; or perhaps yanking their chain? Why is Jesus saying this "to them" (esp. in view of what we know per v.64)?" [Jesus knew from the beginning who...]

It means the Father didn't give to them spiritual discernment. Jesus was placed into their physical proximity but without
having also been given spiritual discernment, they would never be able to comprehend Christ as the Saviour. That
spiritual discernment is what God gives to His chosen upon their becoming born again.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus was placed into their physical proximity but without
having also been given spiritual discernment, they would never be able to comprehend Christ as the Saviour. That
spiritual discernment is what God gives to His chosen upon their becoming born again.

You keep saying that they [must] have "life" before they can have "life". lol





But here is what the text states instead:

Jhn 6:57
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth [active] me, even he shall live by me.

Jhn 6:58
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth [active] of this bread shall live for ever.



The "eating" (of this bread / Him) is an action on their part... the consequence of this action is, they "shall LIVE".







["but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven." But it was their responsibility to "eat" it (/ Him)... for there is no "life" apart from "the true bread / Him"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ and I had added (in case you didn't see it),

"So, again, "What does Jesus mean when He says (to these people), "but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven."

...in view of the facts regarding the ones He was speaking to here (those who were only coming because of the food, etc... but "went away" and no longer followed Him because of His "hard saying" [note: not "losing salvation"!])."





____________

Notice He says "My Father" (not "your Father" like He says elsewhere); so it's like He says, in John 8:42, "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

 

[rogerg]

You keep saying that they [must] have "life" before they can have "life". lol





But here is what the text states instead:

Jhn 6:57
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth [active] me, even he shall live by me.

Jhn 6:58
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth [active] of this bread shall live for ever.



The "eating" (of this bread / Him) is an action on their part... the consequence of this action is, they "shall LIVE".

In 6:54 & 56 we are told that Christ already dwells in him. In 54 that he "hath" eternal life;
in 56 that "dwelleth in me, and I in him"

[Jhn 6:54 KJV] 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:56 KJV] 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

God must first give spiritual life. It isn't the eating and drinking that gives life, it is that he that eateth and drinks does so because he has been given Jesus and eternal spiritual life. Jesus dwelling within causes both the eating, drinking and the life - they are the
effect; Jesus and spiritual life are the cause.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[Jhn 6:54 KJV] 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:56 KJV] 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

God must first give spiritual life. It isn't the eating and drinking that gives life, it is that he that eateth and drinks does so because he has been given Jesus and eternal spiritual life.

John 6:53 - "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except [G1437 G3361] ye eat [active] the flesh of the Son of man, and drink [active] his blood, ye have no life in you."






[you're saying the "life" comes BEFORE the "eat / drink [active]"]

 

[rogerg]

^ and I had added (in case you didn't see it),

"So, again, "What does Jesus mean when He says (to these people), "but My Father giveth YOU the true bread from heaven."

...in view of the facts regarding the ones He was speaking to here (those who were only coming because of the food, etc... but "went away" and no longer followed Him because of His "hard saying" [note: not "losing salvation"!])."





____________

Notice He says "My Father" (not "your Father" like He says elsewhere); so it's like He says, in John 8:42, "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

Sorry, but I've been trying to watch my granddaughter's softball game and this is diverting me from doing that. I explained all this to you before: with salvation comes spiritual discernment, without it being given, not. There are two kinds of "give": one physical, one spiritual. Jesus was given to them in a physical aspect Many people come into a physical, earthly proximity to, and an understanding of, Christ, but few are given spiritual discernment. Spiritual discernment is what is important and not the physical.
Observe:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

John 6:53 - "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except [G1437 G3361] ye eat [active] the flesh of the Son of man, and drink [active] his blood, ye have no life in you."






[you're saying the "life" comes BEFORE the "eat / drink [active]"]

Yes, I am saying that. If they eat and drink it is only because they have spiritual life in them - that they have been given spiritual life. Having life is cause, eating and drinking, effect. No one can give themselves spiritual life just as a physically dead person cannot give themselves physical life. It must first be given. Everything else pertaining to salvation comes from that. That is why Christ is the Saviour and man is not.