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FollowHisSteps

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Feb 15, 2019
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I didn't realise the dude had been banned. Kind of sad. I know he got some truthful responses, but also a load of rot about Islam being more evil, and the West being superior etc. Very sad that some can't stick to the gospel, but have to invoke worldly religion.

I can see the danger of having too many non-believers on the site, but would have liked him to have more of a chance to speak to some reasonable-minded Christians. :|
Fighting Islam is not about its theology but how they live.
Their idiology is an allegiance to a belief system about the concept of truth.
Dealing with people who think like this, there is little point arguing logically, but
rather at a pure life level.

So if you say Muhammed did something so it is ok, is a false premise.
The truth is men and women are meant to live in a loving supportive relationship.
Openness about this, and its failures forms the basis of how the individual can gain
real fulfilment and liberty.

If one wants to hold Jesus made women subservient to men, and the abuse women
receive in marriage is acceptable, then there is little point saying there is anything wrong
in Islam, because the moral perspective is no different.

If one hold Jesus calls us to love all who we meet, which some believers do not accept,
then one can see how Islam fails and also some aspects of christian nation history.

In my interactions with muslims it is this aspect of love and truth where they fail.
They will use the word corruption constantly, while ignoring their own corruption of
everything that is reasonable and provable in preference to Sharia and the Koran.

And christians and others have been treated badly by many groups, but it does not devalue
pointing out the failures of each idiology, even how christianity was expressed for instance
in the crusades and the inquisition. Funnily these two terrible positions, where little different
from the constant approach within the Islamic state from its inception till today.
 

Waggles

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The history of Christian "civilization" is appalling and in start contrast to what the gospels and the first church were about
the Kingdom of God is within
The rise of the Roman Catholic Church as a worldly political power to rule over other kings and peoples gave us a terrible and
sinful legacy - burning of heretics; burning of Bible translators; burning and torture of Jews; Bible hidden away in unreadable Latin;
Papal authority; slaughter of Protestants; burning of women for alleged witchcraft; denominations becoming official State religions;
the Spanish Inquisition; the Crusades and the slaughter of Muslims, Jews and Christians in Palestine ...

1560886752917.png
Christian love in action
 

kaylagrl

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:rolleyes: Be so kind as to quote the post where I stated that "Jews were treated well under Nazis", Kaylagrl. I believe my point was that "Jews under Nazis were treated better than Christians under Communists", so please don't misquote me. Bearing false testimony is a sin.
So is lying. You said they maybe starved and that was the Allies fault. You deny they were gassed, tortured, and murdered. You deny 6 million Jews died.
 

kaylagrl

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Oct 18, 2014
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Most Muslim women agree that they are not treated like dung. Perhaps those who insist they were/are have themselves been indoctrinated by the virus of Western feminism?


Oh, right, right I stand corrected by the Rat. Wanting to drive a car, not be beaten by your husband, being allowed to wear clothing other than a circus tent is totally feminism. All of us women should just take that beating and shut up. Please tell me you aren't married Rat.


The humility of many women in Muslim cultures is more Godly than the cancer of feminism that has invaded many churches in the West.


Yes, yes humility. Your husband is your master, you don't move without his permission. He can beat you as a wife, he can sell you off to a 50 yr old man as a daughter. Clearly it's the Muslim countries that have it right. Why should women have all the rights? huh Now ladies, where do I find this outfit before next Sunday? This is more "Godly" according to Rat.

1560956115051.png



The Muslims I have met have largely been more honourable people than many in Western cultures.


More honorable how? How many Westerners have you met vs Muslims? 10, 20,50? Well obviously we can conclude that all/most Westerners are less honorable because the Rat has scientifically proved Muslims he's "met" are more honorable.


. They don't drink, smoke, gamble or commit adultery, they fast every year,


You realize that in Muslim majority countries a man can take a bride as young as 6yrs. as Muhammed did. In fact they are allowed to derive sexual pleasure from girls younger than that. I won't describe the process here but it doesn't sound very "honorable". In fact a Muslim man is allowed to take any women under his roof. If he has three young maids he can take them all. And bonus, he can beat his wife for complaining about it. Win, win am I right? But at least he doesn't smoke or drink.


and hold firmly to the teachings of their ancestors, so seem to have more "works" than many Christians


More works? Teachings of their ancestors... like jihad and decapitating the infidel? Or getting rid of those pesky Jews?


If we are talking superiority of cultures, I believe the Muslim culture is superior to the West.


I know right!? All this sitting in an air- conditioned house, eating the food I want, going where I want and not kissing the ground three times a day is for the birds!! I always say I want to live like they did a thousand years ago. Not sure my HMO is down with goats but I'll let hubby deal with that. Oh, I have two dogs,guess they're gone. Now I have to break it to hubby that he can't have bacon and pork roast anymore. Oh well the beating the wife and sleeping with the maids thing will make up for it I'm sure ;)



Other claims about the inferiority of Islam not only miss this most important point, but are also incorrect, or at least inaccurate.
You keep this up and you're going to have us all converted!! Wonder what the weather is like in Iran this time of year...

 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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The history of Christian "civilization" is appalling and in start contrast to what the gospels and the first church were about
the Kingdom of God is within
The rise of the Roman Catholic Church as a worldly political power to rule over other kings and peoples gave us a terrible and
sinful legacy - burning of heretics; burning of Bible translators; burning and torture of Jews; Bible hidden away in unreadable Latin;
Papal authority; slaughter of Protestants; burning of women for alleged witchcraft; denominations becoming official State religions;
the Spanish Inquisition; the Crusades and the slaughter of Muslims, Jews and Christians in Palestine ...

View attachment 199980
Christian love in action
Catholics are Catholic, not Christian. The pope is not Christian, he rules over the Catholic church only. The Crusades were Catholic, the Inquisition was Catholic. Not that Protestants didn't have their share of sins. But to blame all that on Christianity is not historically correct.
 

Waggles

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Sep 21, 2017
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ut to blame all that on Christianity is not historically correct.
It's a mixed bag.
When "Christianity" became official worldly State religion it betrayed the spirit and intent of the gospel.
Yes I agree the RCC is directly responsible for making war against the Lamb and the saints ...
but Christian civilization is in terms of worldly power and riches akin to Hindu civilization, Islamic civilization, Buddhist civilization ...

The real real difference between Christianity and these other dominant religions is in the spiritual values and the teaching of love and justice. Christian values lead us to social and spiritual revivals that better us over the course of history - government for the welfare
of the people; the rule of law; public health policies and medicine for better health; abolition of slavery; social justice; love; civility ...
the growth of Christianity did away with the common practice of infanticide in the Greco-Roman world but it remains to this day in
much of the non-Christian world.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Most Muslim women agree that they are not treated like dung. Perhaps those who insist they were/are have themselves been indoctrinated by the virus of Western feminism?
If a young muslim girl wants to have a romantic time dating young men, not a chance.
Most will have an attempt at arranged marriages, often to a 1st cousin, sometimes with FGM involved,
and certainly in a relationship where to divorce is risking ones life.

If you start to gauge the level of this is going on, 50%+ is probably not that far wrong.
Child marriages, abuse, suicide attempts etc is not uncommon.

If one is talking about agreeing publically how bad it is? You would be risking ones own life to speak
publically.

The idea a woman is an independent individual able to sustain their own lives, is just an invention.
The gap is so large, you are talking a civilisation gap, where even the idea woman have a voice worthy
of being listened to is rejected from the start. Women are owned by their father and then by their husband.
To be in the presence of a man not a relative is punishable by beating.

In the west, compromises will be made, but always the attitude in there is the background.
Go back to a muslim dominated society, and freedoms go without question.

So I wonder that "he-rat" is anything but a pro muslim propogandist.
 
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So is lying. You said they maybe starved and that was the Allies fault. You deny they were gassed, tortured, and murdered. You deny 6 million Jews died.
Asking for proof is not denial. To misquote one is to bear false testimony.


Oh, right, right I stand corrected by the Rat. Wanting to drive a car, not be beaten by your husband, being allowed to wear clothing other than a circus tent is totally feminism. All of us women should just take that beating and shut up. Please tell me you aren't married Rat.

Yes, yes humility. Your husband is your master, you don't move without his permission. He can beat you as a wife, he can sell you off to a 50 yr old man as a daughter. Clearly it's the Muslim countries that have it right. Why should women have all the rights? huh Now ladies, where do I find this outfit before next Sunday? This is more "Godly" according to Rat.
Oh please, grow up.

More honorable how? How many Westerners have you met vs Muslims? 10, 20,50? Well obviously we can conclude that all/most Westerners are less honorable because the Rat has scientifically proved Muslims he's "met" are more honorable.
Put it this way. There are many I have met, who claim to be Christians, and yet have less honour (e.g. bearing false testimony), than any Muslim I have ever met, which is more than 50.

You realize that in Muslim majority countries a man can take a bride as young as 6yrs. as Muhammed did.
And according to the Talmud, the age is 3, but I don't see you waging a holy war against Jews. That's called hypocrisy, and even if you did wage another holy war against the Jews for such paedophilia-support in the Talmud, that's not the gospel we are called to preach.

In fact they are allowed to derive sexual pleasure from girls younger than that. I won't describe the process here but it doesn't sound very "honorable". In fact a Muslim man is allowed to take any women under his roof. If he has three young maids he can take them all. And bonus, he can beat his wife for complaining about it. Win, win am I right? But at least he doesn't smoke or drink.
Let's just say that your record in misquoting me doesn't give me much faith in your ability to accurately describe the behaviour of Muslims. And most of the patriarchs had multiple wives. That was just their culture, and God didn't condemn them for it.

More works? Teachings of their ancestors... like jihad and decapitating the infidel? Or getting rid of those pesky Jews?
And other religions are any different? Look at the Crusades.

I know right!? All this sitting in an air- conditioned house, eating the food I want, going where I want and not kissing the ground three times a day is for the birds!! I always say I want to live like they did a thousand years ago. Not sure my HMO is down with goats but I'll let hubby deal with that. Oh, I have two dogs,guess they're gone. Now I have to break it to hubby that he can't have bacon and pork roast anymore. Oh well the beating the wife and sleeping with the maids thing will make up for it I'm sure ;)
Belittling the religions of others is not what we are called to do as Christians.

You keep this up and you're going to have us all converted!! Wonder what the weather is like in Iran this time of year...
I am not sure what the weather is like in Iran, but if I have converted you to focus on the gospel, rather than ridiculing and insulting the lifestyles and beliefs of others, I haven't wasted my words.
 
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In my interactions with muslims it is this aspect of love and truth where they fail. They will use the word corruption constantly, while ignoring their own corruption of everything that is reasonable and provable in preference to Sharia and the Koran.
And you are doing exactly the same. You are focusing on the so-called shortcomings of the Islamic lifestyle (e.g. alleged lack of freedom of women), but ignoring the shortcomings of the Western lifestyle (e.g. massive divorce rate and children without parents because of this same so-called freedom). The gospel message isn't about which lifestyle is better. It is that we are all sinners, on the wide road to Hell, unless we accept Jesus' sacrifice of His own perfect blood for us. And we are all sinners - whether it's that we beat our wife, or that we divorced our husband, or that we were committed unholy jihad against our neighbour - we are all in need of Christ for forgiveness. Its absolutely unhelpful trying to argue the higher moral ground of the Western lifestyle, when in the view of most fair-minded people, the Muslim culture has the higher moral ground (so far as works go).
 
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Catholics are Catholic, not Christian. The pope is not Christian, he rules over the Catholic church only. The Crusades were Catholic, the Inquisition was Catholic. Not that Protestants didn't have their share of sins. But to blame all that on Christianity is not historically correct.
That's exactly what the Muslims say about alleged terrorists being Muslims. "Real Muslims wouldn't have done that". How is your claim any different to theirs?
 
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If a young muslim girl wants to have a romantic time dating young men, not a chance.
Most will have an attempt at arranged marriages, often to a 1st cousin, sometimes with FGM involved,
Oh please. And how often is MGM promoted in the US and many Western countries, and its even legalised and recommended by doctors. Even if Muslims do practice FGM (which most don't), at least this is giving equal rights to men and women, and practicing MGM and FGM equally. The hypocritical West (at least the US) prohibits it for females, but allows it for males.
and certainly in a relationship where to divorce is risking ones life.
You talk about divorce as if it is a right, rather than an evil to be avoided at all costs.

If you start to gauge the level of this is going on, 50%+ is probably not that far wrong.
Child marriages, abuse, suicide attempts etc is not uncommon.
More abuse and suicides in the West, because in Islam, the family is important. (In true Christian societies, this is likewise true, but there are not many truly Christian societies left in the West). I don't think child marriages are prohibited by scripture.

If one is talking about agreeing publically how bad it is? You would be risking ones own life to speak publically.
Christians risk their lives speaking in the West. Their jobs and money are stolen for quoting scripture. Western culture is just as bad as Islamic culture, in this respect. But at least in Islamic culture, the punishment is generally for doing evil, not for doing right (e.g. quoting scripture).

The idea a woman is an independent individual able to sustain their own lives, is just an invention.
The gap is so large, you are talking a civilisation gap, where even the idea woman have a voice worthy
of being listened to is rejected from the start. Women are owned by their father and then by their husband.
To be in the presence of a man not a relative is punishable by beating.
No culture is perfect, but I don't believe they have the same rape, unfaithfulness, divorce problems that we have in the West. This seems like a small price to pay to do away with these evils.

So I wonder that "he-rat" is anything but a pro muslim propogandist.
I'm certainly not a pro-muslim propagandist. But the value of Christianity is *not* the Western lifestyle. The Western lifestyle is depraved. The value of Christianity is salvation through Christ, and this is what should be focused on when discoursing with Muslims, not the illusory greatness of the West.
 
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You keep this up and you're going to have us all converted!! Wonder what the weather is like in Iran this time of year...
By the way, this was funny. If I could have disagreed with the rest of your post, and rated this section as funny, I would have... So I'll just post this comment instead. :)
 

FollowHisSteps

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Feb 15, 2019
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Oh please. And how often is MGM promoted in the US and many Western countries, and its even legalised and recommended by doctors. Even if Muslims do practice FGM (which most don't), at least this is giving equal rights to men and women, and practicing MGM and FGM equally. The hypocritical West (at least the US) prohibits it for females, but allows it for males.
You talk about divorce as if it is a right, rather than an evil to be avoided at all costs.

More abuse and suicides in the West, because in Islam, the family is important. (In true Christian societies, this is likewise true, but there are not many truly Christian societies left in the West). I don't think child marriages are prohibited by scripture.

Christians risk their lives speaking in the West. Their jobs and money are stolen for quoting scripture. Western culture is just as bad as Islamic culture, in this respect. But at least in Islamic culture, the punishment is generally for doing evil, not for doing right (e.g. quoting scripture).

No culture is perfect, but I don't believe they have the same rape, unfaithfulness, divorce problems that we have in the West. This seems like a small price to pay to do away with these evils.

I'm certainly not a pro-muslim propagandist. But the value of Christianity is *not* the Western lifestyle. The Western lifestyle is depraved. The value of Christianity is salvation through Christ, and this is what should be focused on when discoursing with Muslims, not the illusory greatness of the West.
MGM is not the the same as FGM. If you think this is the same, unfortunately you need to see
the medical facts.
Circumcision is done as part of Judaism, but not part of christianity. Some boys need circumcision
because of tightness of the skin. There is no medical or religious reason for FGM, it is practised as
part of a tradition going back thousands of years. I once thought FGM was just cultural until I talked
to some Wahabi muslims who insist women should have this done. It is a big problem, because for
many woman it means they have no sexual pleasure ever again in their lives. It is literally devastating.

And religious freedom in muslim countries is very limited. You cannot quote scripture or talk to any none
christian about faith.

Western lifestyle provides freedom, it is people who use this freedom in both good and bad ways.
There is no illusory greatness of the west, you are using one of its great benefits now, the internet.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/03/the-women-in-afghanistans-moral-prisons/

The truth of what happens when everything is silenced is what happens under Islam.
To talk about the truth is evil in their eyes, because it will bring disgrace upon the community, except,
the community will not change unless evil people are stopped from committing evil deeds.
 
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MGM is not the the same as FGM. If you think this is the same, unfortunately you need to see the medical facts.
Unfortunately, I think it is you who need to see the medical facts. FGM is the removal of the clitoral hood from the clitoris. MGM is the removal of the foreskin from the penis. Both folds of skin serve the same purpose. Both leave the boy or girl capable of sexual reproduction, but both have a high likelihood of doing damage to his or her future sexual pleasure, and that of his future wife, or her future husband. The mutilations are equivalent.

Circumcision is done as part of Judaism, but not part of christianity. Some boys need circumcision because of tightness of the skin. There is no medical or religious reason for FGM, it is practised as
part of a tradition going back thousands of years.
Circumcision is done around the world for medical, religious and cultural reasons. The arguments for practicing FGM are the same as MGM - her future husband will prefer it, it makes her body look better, it's cleaner, it's healthier, it's part of her religion, it would be weird not to have it done, all the other girls have it done etc. Both sets of arguments are false, but the arguments are the same. As for the Jews practicing circumcision, they changed the procedure from what Abraham did almost 2 millenia ago, so it is a mutilation now (ripping off the adhering skin, rather than simply trimming away the excess).

I once thought FGM was just cultural until I talked to some Wahabi muslims who insist women should have this done.
It is cultural, the same as MGM is cultural. That is why it is not practiced by all Muslims, and why even some Christians or non-religious folk have had their girls circumcised. Same as why MGM is now often rejected by Jews - who put their children above religion, but why it is practiced in other cultures whose religion doesn't require it.

It is a big problem, because for many woman it means they have no sexual pleasure ever again in their lives. It is literally devastating.
The same statement applies to MGM. For some men, it seems to have little difference, or they may even be pleased it was done. For some, it is devastating, and their lives are ruined, or have committed suicide over it. Women who have undergone FGM are often the ones equating FGM to MGM.

And religious freedom in muslim countries is very limited. You cannot quote scripture or talk to any none christian about faith.
It seems you can't do this in Wetern countries now, either. But the fact remains that in Islamic countries, freedoms are more often constrained for the right reasons (to my understanding). The Muslims believe a lie, hence their prohibition on what they consider blasphemy. The Western nations have no gods but themselves, and so are happy to entertain most blasphemies (actual or alleged).

Western lifestyle provides freedom, it is people who use this freedom in both good and bad ways. There is no illusory greatness of the west, you are using one of its great benefits now, the internet.
Are you saying the internet doesn't exist in Islamic countries? It makes no sense to attribute the internet to the West's depravity. The internet was created due to man's creativity, not his depravity, so I don't understand how you believe this to be a Western benefit.

The truth of what happens when everything is silenced is what happens under Islam. To talk about the truth is evil in their eyes, because it will bring disgrace upon the community, except, the community will not change unless evil people are stopped from committing evil deeds.
But the core issue is that they believe the truth to be a lie, not that they don't care what the truth is. It is more evil to know the truth and reject it, than to never have known it.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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And other religions are any different? Look at the Crusades.
to be fair the crusades were not about slaughtering every muslim they could find. they were about which religio-political power would control Jerusalem.

not that you aren't correct to say that atrocities were systematically carried out in the name of Christianity -- just that IMO you'd be better off using the inquisition as an example, even if it may have been some parties aim to exterminate Islam during the crusades. ;)
 
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to be fair the crusades were not about slaughtering every muslim they could find. they were about which religio-political power would control Jerusalem.

not that you aren't correct to say that atrocities were systematically carried out in the name of Christianity -- just that IMO you'd be better off using the inquisition as an example, even if it may have been some parties aim to exterminate Islam during the crusades. ;)
Thanks. My point was that just because someone claims to be a Christian, doesn't make one a Christian, and that the same must surely apply to all claims about religion. But thanks for clarifying. :)
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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Asking for proof is not denial. To misquote one is to bear false testimony.

I didn't misquote, you were given proof by several individuals and you're a Holocaust denier.



Oh please, grow up.

Huh so you have no answer. No surprise there.


Put it this way. There are many I have met, who claim to be Christians, and yet have less honour (e.g. bearing false testimony), than any Muslim I have ever met, which is more than 50.

Now who needs to grow up? If Christians are so horrible what are you doing here?! If Islam is the better religion go find their forum and chat with them.



And according to the Talmud, the age is 3, but I don't see you waging a holy war against Jews. That's called hypocrisy, and even if you did wage another holy war against the Jews for such paedophilia-support in the Talmud, that's not the gospel we are called to preach.

Absolute and utter lie, next.



Let's just say that your record in misquoting me doesn't give me much faith in your ability to accurately describe the behaviour of Muslims. And most of the patriarchs had multiple wives. That was just their culture, and God didn't condemn them for it.

NT says one wife. You don't need to take my word, all kinds of pro... Oh that's right proof doesn't matter to you.


And other religions are any different? Look at the Crusades.

What about them?

Belittling the religions of others is not what we are called to do as Christians.

Calling out false religion is wrong? What Bible are you reading?


I am not sure what the weather is like in Iran, but if I have converted you to focus on the gospel, rather than ridiculing and insulting the lifestyles and beliefs of others, I haven't wasted my words.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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That's exactly what the Muslims say about alleged terrorists being Muslims. "Real Muslims wouldn't have done that". How is your claim any different to theirs?
My claim is different because Catholics are Catholics, they aren't Christians. They are not the same. I don't confess to a priest, I don't go by what the pope says. Muslims follow the Koran and do what it says.