Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?
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https://www.usccb.org/committees/ec...rs/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-islam
I’ll have to read each one in their original context but by reading through the collection here it seems they are not saying muslims are saved by Christ, but calling Christians and muslims to focus on the things they do agree with morally and spiritually. Seems more like calls to leave rather than accepting them as saved.
I’ll have to read each one in their original context but by reading through the collection here it seems they are not saying muslims are saved by Christ, but calling Christians and muslims to focus on the things they do agree with morally and spiritually. Seems more like calls to leave rather than accepting them as saved.
I asked you to show me somewhere where a Catholic was teaching what you claim that clause to be teaching. There are 3 sections prior in the section of Vatican II that precede the clause that would dissuade anyone reading it in context from getting that impression since they are excluded from membership in the church.
All the Catholics are saying by saying Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is an affirmation that Islam is Abrahamic, basically accepting the claim that Muhammad is a son of Kedar. It's an incorrect statement that is very much in error, but it does not have the implications that you are trying to smear it with. Catholics are well aware that Muslims don't recognize the Trinity, and Catholics very much affirm the Trinity.
So you're welcome to show me somewhere a Catholic is getting from that clause what you claim it means, where they are teaching what you claim it means. Until then my impression that you're unfairly smearing them with an out of context statement remains.
All the Catholics are saying by saying Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is an affirmation that Islam is Abrahamic, basically accepting the claim that Muhammad is a son of Kedar. It's an incorrect statement that is very much in error, but it does not have the implications that you are trying to smear it with. Catholics are well aware that Muslims don't recognize the Trinity, and Catholics very much affirm the Trinity.
So you're welcome to show me somewhere a Catholic is getting from that clause what you claim it means, where they are teaching what you claim it means. Until then my impression that you're unfairly smearing them with an out of context statement remains.
I don't think the RCC is Christian , maybe 1/2 Christian and 1/2 pagan mixed .... I don't think Peter was ever in Rome .. I think it was Simon the Sorcerer from Samaria that impersonated Peter and the sorcerer was well aquainted with the Babylonian gods .. And I think the RCC has mixed idols with christanity .. I think when Paul said ''the mystery of iniquity is already at work'' he was talking about Simon the sorcerer among others .. Peter's bone ossuary was found in Jerusalem in 1953 by a Franciscan monk on an archeology expedition at the mt of olives in Jerusalem along with other notable Christians .. It was reported to Pious XII and he wasn't too anxious to report the find .. I can not picture Peter assuming himself or claiming he is Christ on earth .. The RCC wants to rule the earth from the top down .. There are many low level RCC members who believe everything the RCC hierarchy tells them .. Since the Apostles there has always been at least a remnant of the true church ... Peter more than likely died in Jerusalem during the rebellion with his hands stretched out trying to stop the Jews from their rebellion against Rome ... They got clobbered ..
What people say and what is true are not necessarily the same. The Koran rejects the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. Jews also reject both doctrines. But Christians believe -- without the shadow of a doubt -- that the Godhead consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is the Mystery of God and Christ.
Now the honest thing for the Catholic Church and particularly Pope Francis would have been to tell both Muslims and Jews that Christians DO NOT worship the same God, therefore there is no common ground. But even the Catechism of the Catholic Church misleads Catholics regarding this issue.
QUOTES FROM THE CATECHISM
839-- ...The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant... [Note: no mention of the New Testament or the rejection of Christ]
841 --"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." [Note: totally false and misleading]
So if a church is prepared to mislead its adherents, what should you do? Walk away from it.
Now the honest thing for the Catholic Church and particularly Pope Francis would have been to tell both Muslims and Jews that Christians DO NOT worship the same God, therefore there is no common ground. But even the Catechism of the Catholic Church misleads Catholics regarding this issue.
QUOTES FROM THE CATECHISM
839-- ...The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant... [Note: no mention of the New Testament or the rejection of Christ]
841 --"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." [Note: totally false and misleading]
So if a church is prepared to mislead its adherents, what should you do? Walk away from it.
Say Paul had succeeded in his effort to convert those Greeks devoted to the 'Unkown God'. If Paul had convinced them that their God and his God were the same God. Do you think it would be forbidden for them to include the 'Unknown God' in the foundation of their faith in Christ? The unknown God was the kernel of Truth Paul found in their myth. Truth is it's true object. The Unkown God then finds its true object in Christ who is Truth. Thats how the pagans were converted and why you err in thinking you see contamination.
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
If catholic not teach muslim and catholic adore the same God why make that statement.
You want to say that statement wrong or what
You say out of context.
What is the context?
Be honest my brother
SECOND EDITION
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
If catholic not teach muslim and catholic adore the same God why make that statement.
You want to say that statement wrong or what
You say out of context.
What is the context?
Be honest my brother
The Muslims say they worship the God of Abraham. You do too.
Look at it this way. Say you convince an atheist that something must have created everything. That's it though.The atheist doesn't believe anything else about God. When the atheist professes God Creator of all that is, as received from your mouth. Is the atheist believing the same God as you?
Look at it this way. Say you convince an atheist that something must have created everything. That's it though.The atheist doesn't believe anything else about God. When the atheist professes God Creator of all that is, as received from your mouth. Is the atheist believing the same God as you?