Is Christmas paganism?

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Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#41
How do you deal with circumcision, its in the Torah, but its not of levitical origin per say, Yet in the NT its discouraged to do so by Paul?:

Galatians 5:2-3 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

1Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

The passage in corinthians makes the commandment in the Torah completely null and void. Unless of course you are someone like me who believes God works in covenants and has instituted a new kind of circumcision in the new covenant:


Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Well to give a honest and brief answer, not saying I right but this is where I stand. Paul did have Timothy circumcised and also said Christ was of no value to the circumcised...

Acts 16:1-3, “1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.”

The answer to why would he have Timothy circumcised could be; “because of the Jews who were in the those parts,” however, it seems hypocritical especially given other texts like Galatians 5, where he is harshly admonishing the Galatians who were even thinking about getting circumcised;

Galatians 5:2, Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.”

and says this:

1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"

So Paul seems to speak against it while do it to Timothy, one thing to be considered is that he meant more than the physical ast of circumcision? IDK I would have to ask he what he meant due to the discreapency...

and YHWH always said the heart should be circumcised:

Deuteronomy 10:16, “And you shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and harden your neck no more.”

Thus I personally don't get into too big a fuss about it, but I believe it is ok to do physically but that is like baptisim, it is an outward sign of an inward reality. The important thing is the inward reality... Not to make circumcision or baptisim trivial, but the spiritual significance that comes with those is pf the most importance I think.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#42
Wow , cant believe some of this stuff :(
Under the New Covenant , we are FREE in Christ !!!

No one should be judging anyone else with regards to Christmas celebrations , if you want to celebrate Christmas , do it unto the Lord , if you dont , do that unto the Lord !!

Freedom people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 Peter 2:16, “as free, yet not using your freedom as a cloak for evil, but as servants of the Mighty One.”

free from sin...

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#43
Luke 12:57, “And why, also, do you not judge for yourselves what is right?”



Zechariah 8:16, “These are the words you should do: speak the truth to one another, judge with truth and right-ruling for peace in your gates.”



John 7:24, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”



2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is breathed out by Yah and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness,"



James 5:19-20, “Brothers, if anyone among you goes astray from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the straying of his way shall save a life from death and cover a great number of sins.”



Leviticus 19:17, “Do not hate your brother in your heart. Reprove your neighbor, for certain, and bear no sin because of him.”



Proverbs 24:25-26, "But he who rebukes the wicked will be a delight, and a righteous blessing will be called upon him. A fitting; appropriate, answer is like a kiss on the lips."



Hebrews 5:12-14, “For indeed, although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first elements of the Words of Yah. And you have become such as need milk and not solid food. For everyone partaking of milk is inexperienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature whose senses have been trained by practice to discern both good and evil."
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
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443
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#44
Colossians 2 vs 14

Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us , which was contrary to us , he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross !

vs 16

So , let no one judge you in food or in drink , or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

vs 20 - 23

Therefore , if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world , why as though living in the world , do you subject yourselves to regulations

Do not touch , do not taste , do not handle

Which all concern things which perish with the using .. according to the commandments and doctrines of men

These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self imposed religion , false humility , and neglect of the body , but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh

Shamah , do you know or understand anything at all about when the age of Grace began ?
 

Pemican

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2014
889
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#45
I don't think there is anything wrong with celebrating Christmas on the traditional day and in the usual way. Yes it has been perverted into commercialism and lots of nonsense to hide the real meaning of Christmas and the birth of Christ. But this is the devil's world and he will always provide distractions and distortions from real belief in the savior.

The real celebration though takes place in our souls when we rejoice that the savior has come and we have believe in Him. Whether we do or don't participate in a traditional overt celebration is merely a matter of circumstance and personal choice. What goes on in your soul is far more important.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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#46
Colossians 2 vs 14

Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us , which was contrary to us , he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross !

vs 16

So , let no one judge you in food or in drink , or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

vs 20 - 23

Therefore , if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world , why as though living in the world , do you subject yourselves to regulations

Do not touch , do not taste , do not handle

Which all concern things which perish with the using .. according to the commandments and doctrines of men

These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self imposed religion , false humility , and neglect of the body , but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh

Shamah , do you know or understand anything at all about when the age of Grace began ?
Clearly you just post a passage that supports what Im saying...

"according to the commandments and doctrines of men...These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self imposed religion , false humility , and neglect of the body , but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh"

Is Christmas a commandment of Yah or of the world?

Is it about Messiah or is it about the elements of the world?

Christmas could not be a more perfect example of this:

Colossians 2:8, “See to it that no one makes a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary matters of the world, and not according to Messiah.”

Ohh and if you think grace gives you the right to celebrate pagan things or sin, you have perveted grace.

1 Peter 2:16, “as free, yet not using your freedom as a cloak for evil, but as servants of the Mighty One.”

free from sin...

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”

Jude 1:4-18, “For certain men have slipped in, whose judgment was written about long ago, wicked ones perverting the unmerited mercy of our Mighty One for immoral behavior, and denying the only Master יהוה and our Master יהושע Messiah.

COlo
2:16, "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."2:17, "These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."

How does the subatance beloing to the Messiah?

Fulfilled already:

1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's Sacrifice(Passover), burial and resurrection (First Fruits – presenting Himself to YHWH)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread – Removal of sin by Yahshua's perfect work as the Passover Sacrifice
3. Feast of Weeks – The blessing Holy Spirit of YHWH, coming into our lives stronger than ever

To be fulfilled in the future:

4. Feast of Trumpets – Yahshua's return and gathering of the Saints
5. Day of Atonement – Yahshua leads the army of YHWH to destroy evil rulers of this world and satan is chained for 1,000 years
6. Feast of Tabernacles – Yahshua dwells on earth for 1,000 years teaching truth and righteousness
7. The Last Great Day – satan is loosed and swiftly destroyed, the Kingdom of YHWH reigns forever

"let none judge you in regard to...a Sabbath"

the modern world has turned the meaning of this upon it ead due to their misunderstanding of the Moadim of YHWH.

All the Sabbaths are 100% about the Messiah and His works, Paul says dont be misled by "indulgences of the flesh, philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary matters of the world, and not according to Messiah"

Well Christmas has nothing to do with the Messiah and is about worldly thing 100% rooted in and by the world.... The Sabbath are 100% from YHWH and about te Messiah....
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
310
443
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#47
never mind , you just dont get it , you have a one track mind , and are obsessed with the old covenant
not sure what u are but my guess is Hebrew Roots
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#48
John 4:24, “Yah is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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#49
The Encyclopedia Americana, International Edition, 1991, p666:
“The idea of using evergreens at Christmas also came to England from pre-Christian northern European beliefs. Celtic and Teutonic tribes honored these plants at their winter solstice festivals as symbolic of eternal life, and the Druids ascribed magical properties to the mistletoe in particular.”

Jeremiah 10:1-5, “Hear the word which YHWH speaks concerning you, O house of Israyl. This is what YHWH says: Do not learn the way of the heathen and do not be deceived by the signs of heaven; though the heathen are deceived by them For the religious customs of the peoples are vain; worthless! For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, so that it will not move; topple over. They are upright, like a palm tree, but they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot go by themselves. Do not give them reverence! They cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do righteousness!”
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#50
Well this thread is asking if Christmas is pagan...

I have studied Christmas a lot because finding the truth about it was one of the first things that opened my eyes, I had realized I had been taught a lie and I wanted truth, so I began to study for myself. ''

If I know Christmas is pagan, and someone tells me they do it, then it is clear if they love the Messiah they should not.

Thing is nobody wants to let go of their "golden calf/sacred cow" you know, it's ok to tell a mormon they follow false doctrines, but how dare anyone tell you to let go of your "sacred cow"

Calling a sin what it is a sin is judging a sin, we are supposed to do this, we are not supposed to judge someones final resting place, as we are not the one who decides that and we whould have no way of knowing...

Lol can you quote a single post of mine where I "boast" about anything I do? You climmed I do regularly, it should be easy...
well actually the very post I quoted you do 'boast'

I know and ones heart who is truly changed by Yah will not mixing paganisim with His worship, especially when they know and will seek to find what is proper and improper.
you believe Christmas is pagan and so you conclude that only those with truly changed hearts will agree with you on that

that's a very typical stance taken by those who think they are part of the really changed

the Bible is clear on what is considered sin and I have studied what some consider paganism enough, to believe it is NOT a sin to observe either Christmas or Easter. It is not a sin to give gifts (the wise men gave gifts) and it is not a sin to have a tree in the house.

you and others are free to believe whatever you want, but you would do well to stop condemning those who believe otherwise, and you would do well to stop considering yourself as a judge over the hearts of others by saying you know a person's heart is truly changed when they agree with you and your views on Christmas and Easter

be careful on what you call a golden calf...you might be making one yourself out of your own views !
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#51
well actually the very post I quoted you do 'boast'

you believe Christmas is pagan and so you conclude that only those with truly changed hearts will agree with you on that

that's a very typical stance taken by those who think they are part of the really changed

the Bible is clear on what is considered sin and I have studied what some consider paganism enough, to believe it is NOT a sin to observe either Christmas or Easter. It is not a sin to give gifts (the wise men gave gifts) and it is not a sin to have a tree in the house.

you and others are free to believe whatever you want, but you would do well to stop condemning those who believe otherwise, and you would do well to stop considering yourself as a judge over the hearts of others by saying you know a person's heart is truly changed when they agree with you and your views on Christmas and Easter

be careful on what you call a golden calf...you might be making one yourself out of your own views !
I can provide Scriptual evidence and historical evidence that Christmas and Easter have nothing to do with the worship of Yah and are indeed pagan in origin and practice. How many Encyclopedias would you like me to quote? WOuld you like to read Jeremiah 10 about tree worship? Or Jeremiah 7 about Ashtoreth, Ishtar, Easter, Eostre?

It is clear these "holi"days were instutited by the RCC into Christendom, and I know it can hurt because we are so accustomed to them, I celebrated them my entire life growing up, but once I read the Scripture and the history I knew it was wrong...

It;s crazy, it seems the only problem or bad thing one can do in the modern "church" is call a sin a sin... or say obedience is right...

SO where did I boast of my obedience?

you said:

guess you have no mirrors in your house since you constantly boast of your special ability to follow the OT ever since you got here and do your best to turn every thread for your personal advertisement with regards to same
You used this post as proof:

I know and ones heart who is truly changed by Yah will not mixing paganisim with His worship, especially when they know and will seek to find what is proper and improper. Honestly I think many people don;t really care, most want a religion that makes them happy as opposed to a religion that is what YHWH wants... and none of us are perfect but Yah willing He will strengthen those who seek Him in truth and turn the hearts of those that don't know any better to His truth.

John 4:24, “Yah is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.”
Where is the boasting of my obedience?

I spoke on a changed heart, and many people wanting a religion that suited them rather than the religion Yahshua taught. Can you tell me many people do not do this? If He changes our heart would we not want more and more to go His way? Is standing for His way the only unacceptable doctrine?

Also calling a sin what it is, a sin is not condemnation, saying one is not goingto the kingdom is condemnation...
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#52
I can provide Scriptual evidence and historical evidence that Christmas and Easter have nothing to do with the worship of Yah and are indeed pagan in origin and practice. How many Encyclopedias would you like me to quote? WOuld you like to read Jeremiah 10 about tree worship? Or Jeremiah 7 about Ashtoreth, Ishtar, Easter, Eostre?

It is clear these "holi"days were instutited by the RCC into Christendom, and I know it can hurt because we are so accustomed to them, I celebrated them my entire life growing up, but once I read the Scripture and the history I knew it was wrong...

It;s crazy, it seems the only problem or bad thing one can do in the modern "church" is call a sin a sin... or say obedience is right...
you don't define how people worship God. there are all kinds of critics willing to define what worship is according to THEM

the scriptures even say 'make a joyful noise' to God. do you have a definition for what that noise might be? all of creation praises their Creator...are you going to tell the birds how to sing?

are you so bigoted that you actually think if someone brings a tree into their home they are worshipping it? perhaps no one should live in a house made out of wood! you are just chock full of what you consider acceptable and that is a trademark of those who are intolerant of anyone who does not see things just the way that they do

what is clear, is just you obliging your own need to define what is and what is not acceptable to God in order to appear proper in your own sight.

news flash: others do not see it that way and they also do not believe you are holier for all your efforts and words and even Paul says not to judge others on these things but yet you go right ahead and pat others on the back who join you. it's not your call

I spoke on a changed heart, and many people wanting a religion that suited them rather than the religion Yahshua taught. Can you tell me many people do not do this? If He changes our heart would we not want more and more to go His way? Is standing for His way the only unacceptable doctrine?

Also calling a sin what it is, a sin is not condemnation, saying one is not goingto the kingdom is condemnation...
yes. a changed heart according to YOUR standards and what you believe is the proof of said changed heart

be careful on what you call a golden calf...you might be making one yourself out of your own views !
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#53
The Encyclopedia Americana, International Edition, 1991, p666:
“The idea of using evergreens at Christmas also came to England from pre-Christian northern European beliefs. Celtic and Teutonic tribes honored these plants at their winter solstice festivals as symbolic of eternal life, and the Druids ascribed magical properties to the mistletoe in particular.”

Jeremiah 10:1-5, “Hear the word which YHWH speaks concerning you, O house of Israyl. This is what YHWH says: Do not learn the way of the heathen and do not be deceived by the signs of heaven; though the heathen are deceived by them For the religious customs of the peoples are vain; worthless! For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, so that it will not move; topple over. They are upright, like a palm tree, but they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot go by themselves. Do not give them reverence! They cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do righteousness!”
well I guess you will follow even an encyclopedia so you go ahead

I will follow the New Testament which does not include Jeremiah calling me house of Israel with all the fancy spelling

like someone said...Hebrew Roots? yes? no? who cares

we have a new covenant and we are not going to go backwards.

perhaps read Galatians. Paul is wondering who has bewitched those who want to go back to following the old covenant instead of following Christ who is the Living Way and not stone
 
L

LPT

Guest
#54
I think it's ok for the right reasons, Jesus fasted but he didn't fast like the Pharisees.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#55
well I guess you will follow even an encyclopedia so you go ahead

I will follow the New Testament which does not include Jeremiah calling me house of Israel with all the fancy spelling

like someone said...Hebrew Roots? yes? no? who cares

we have a new covenant and we are not going to go backwards.

perhaps read Galatians. Paul is wondering who has bewitched those who want to go back to following the old covenant instead of following Christ who is the Living Way and not stone
Mat 4:4, “But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of יהוה.” (Deut 8:3)

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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#56
you don't define how people worship God. there are all kinds of critics willing to define what worship is according to THEM

the scriptures even say 'make a joyful noise' to God. do you have a definition for what that noise might be? all of creation praises their Creator...are you going to tell the birds how to sing?

are you so bigoted that you actually think if someone brings a tree into their home they are worshipping it? perhaps no one should live in a house made out of wood! you are just chock full of what you consider acceptable and that is a trademark of those who are intolerant of anyone who does not see things just the way that they do

what is clear, is just you obliging your own need to define what is and what is not acceptable to God in order to appear proper in your own sight.

news flash: others do not see it that way and they also do not believe you are holier for all your efforts and words and even Paul says not to judge others on these things but yet you go right ahead and pat others on the back who join you. it's not your call



yes. a changed heart according to YOUR standards and what you believe is the proof of said changed heart

be careful on what you call a golden calf...you might be making one yourself out of your own views !
People are free to do whatever they want, showing Jer 7 and 10, John 4:24, etc. are not defining what another does it is pointing to the word of the Most High. This thread is about if Christmas is pagan or not, so are only people that say it is not pagan allowed to post?

You say I define what is acceptable to the Most High, yet I quoted the Most High's words, He says not to worship Him in ways He does not command... and yes decorating a tree and atanding in awe to it is paying ot homage, reverence and worship and/or using it to worship the Most High:

Jeremiah 10:1-5, “Hear the word which YHWH speaks concerning you, O house of Israyl. This is what YHWH says: Do not learn the way of the heathen and do not be deceived by the signs of heaven; though the heathen are deceived by them For the religious customs of the peoples are vain; worthless! For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, so that it will not move; topple over. They are upright, like a palm tree, but they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot go by themselves. Do not give them reverence! They cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do righteousness!”

Deuteronomy 12:29-, “When YHWH your Father cuts off the nations from in front of you, and you displace them and live in their land, Be careful not to be ensnared into following them by asking about their gods, saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do the same. You must not worship YHWH your Father in their way, for every abomination to YHWH, which He hates, they have done to their gods."

Everyone is a t a different place in their journey but the Spirit guides all to the same place in the end. That place is truth.

John 4:24, “Yah is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.”

Psalm 145:18, "יהוה is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth."

It does not matter how we see it.. It matters how the Creator sees it.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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#57
Wow , cant believe some of this stuff :(
Under the New Covenant , we are FREE in Christ !!!

No one should be judging anyone else with regards to Christmas celebrations , if you want to celebrate Christmas , do it unto the Lord , if you dont , do that unto the Lord !!

Freedom people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This thread isn't asking but is Christmas paganism. In its origins, yes, it is.
Freedom people? Wow. How far do you think to teach that is to go?
Freedom to what? Are there restrictions on what you think of as freedom in Christ?
 

melita916

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2011
10,169
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#58
this all reminds me of when Paul talks about meat sacrificed to idols. He said an idol is nothing.

he also included for us to be careful to not be a stumbling block.

as I mentioned before, I have no problem with someone celebrating or not celebrating Christmas. but no one has the right to say I'm (or anyone else is) more/less saved.
 

RedeemedGift

Senior Member
May 28, 2017
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#59
It all depends on the individual. To some with a weak conscience the fact that Christmas developed from sinful traditions is enough for them to want to avoid it at all costs. But I find that we can become ensnared by an unreasonably strict conscience with many things, and that can develop into legalism. Christ has given us much freedom in many matters and it is best to do all things to His praise and glory.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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Illinois
#60
"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not" (Jeremiah 10:2-4).

Forerunner of the Christmas tree?