Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical

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MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
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#21
This is one of the most twisted dogma that the church has ever come up with ever since the time of Charlemagne. The concept of a fiery hell and eternal torment would have been foreign to 1st and 2nd century Christians . Throughout the old testament the word hell is written as Sheol or Hades and universally is translated as the hidden place or the grave, Jacob went to hell, Hezekia, David and others to include Jesus went to hell - that is to the grave. NOT a place of fiery torment.

Tartaroo is mentioned by Peter as the place where the fallen angels are currently restrained an actual physical place (maybe its actually detroit). and the other is Gehanna - named after the valley/ditch outside of the walls of Jerusalem where horrible things such as child sacrifices took place and fire burned day and night burning bodies of the dead animals and criminals.

The lake of fire will be real and those not found in the lambs book of life will be cast into it and that is the second death - they will die and not survive

For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life- death means death - our reward as Christians is eternal life

The logic of church people escapes me - how does a loving God whoes mercy endures forever - who IS love incarnate who forgives 7x77 and really forgives without remembering , who is the most just and merciful , how do these people square that up in there heads when they say a kind loving man from a country never having accepted Christ will burn in eternal torment forever??

These are the exactly what any thinking person would view as a cultic following that blindly follow dogma despite the common sense and teaching of the Holy Ghost

Anyone who follows a god that would do that is an idiot - even the Totenkapf SS had limits on torture of their victims.

Everything isnt as black and white as churches teach - what about different levels of punishment ??? how are ones who hold themselves out to be teachers going to be judged more harshly ?? how is Sodom going to be Judged less harshly. What does the bible refer to as less stripes being delivered for punishment (has to be an end if its less than something - simple math

The most dangerous time for a new Christian if when he gets around church people and loaded with dogma that has no grounding in biblical scripture or scripture that is shoehorned and twisted to fit dogma despite being against our understanding of God

I would say this concerning suicide - and i use this analogy a lot - when you accept Christ as your Savior you become a child of GOD . you dont become perfect and you never will on this side of the grass - But God as the most loving Father doesnt see your sins because they are washed away by the blood of Christ who made the PERFECT atonement for your sins

God has your picture up on his refrigerator door and looks at it every morning with his god coffee (probably folgers Columbian) and he sees it and smiles with the deepest love you can ever imagine. When he approaches the angels they are all going - oh boy here come the pictures again - and he pulls your picture out and shows it around just as lovingly as ANY parent would.

No mater what your child does have you EVER taken his picture off your fridge or out of your wallet? NO and God love of with the enormity of a love that we cant comprehend - DO YOU BELIEVE GOD PULLS YOURS OUT BECAUSE YOU WERE IN SO MUCH PAIN THAT YOU COULD TAKE IT ANYMORE?? not a chance

The God I know and Worship is LOVE in fact LOVE incarnate and certainly not some attorney

in Short Trust GOD and Listen to your heart - Trust that the Holy Spirit will lead you in the right direction - be wary of religion be wary of those who teach legalism and absolutism Go by what YOU read in the Bible.

and if any old lady tells you babies wind up in hell punch them in the nose
How do you deal with all the things Jesus said about hell being eternal and where the worm dies not. The Bible has said so much about hell, we can't just consider how loving God is. We need to consider all of Gods attributes, like His justice, wrath, righteousness. Hell is a very difficult doctrine but we must accept what Jesus said about it, regardless of how terrible it is.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
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#22
Sorry, but the word of God is clear in that there is eternal life and eternal punishment, both being states of conscious existence. Eccl.9:5 doesn't mean what you and others think it does. The human being is made up of body, soul and spirit. It is the body that knows nothing, yet the spirit is conscious and aware. You are teaching annihilationism, which is false. We have plenty of scriptures demonstrating the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body.

The words everlasting and eternal focus on the state of the individuals on-going existence in that state, whether dead or alive. Both life and death are states of conscious existence determined by the individuals state of being with God. Eternal life is conscious existence in the presence of God and the joy of his kingdom. Where death is eternal conscious existence in separation from God in eternal punishment. To be clear, those who die in their sins are not burned up in the lake of fire so that they no longer exist. At the great white throne judgment, the unrighteous dead will be released from Hades and will receive resurrected bodies fit for punishment in the lake of fire.
Show me a verse or verses showing the unsaved will receive life again. I am not worried about those who are saved / the true believers there is sufficient evidence to support they will have eternal life.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#23
How do you deal with all the things Jesus said about hell being eternal and where the worm dies not. The Bible has said so much about hell, we can't just consider how loving God is. We need to consider all of Gods attributes, like His justice, wrath, righteousness. Hell is a very difficult doctrine but we must accept what Jesus said about it, regardless of how terrible it is.
Yes, terrible. People see what they read about it differently. No new thing there - we all understand some verses differently.

Some see eternal death as meaning: eternally dead for good, no reversing it - just eternally dead and gone. And some see eternally dead as being alive and in torment.

I have my suspicions that the lake of fire is death that for all eternity cannot be reversed. But I don't think one is alive and aware in that eternal death.

Others interpret it differently.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#24
Show me a verse or verses showing the unsaved will receive life again. I am not worried about those who are saved / the true believers there is sufficient evidence to support they will have eternal life.
It reads to me like they will be brought to life again for the judgement, and will then die the second death.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
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#25
I truly understand your concern and your grief. But I think that it is best left with God, since if his spirit is in the presence of the Lord, that would be the best place to be. However, if not, then there nothing that you or anyone can do. Therefore, it is better left to God.
The only comfort I can have is knowing that God is all good and all Righteous, all loving so what ever He does is perfect. I can't impose my will upon God, so I fully accept and respect and love all of His ways
 
Feb 7, 2017
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#26
The eternal torment is in a lake of fire and brimstone (Rev 20.15).
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#27
Yes, terrible. People see what they read about it differently. No new thing there - we all understand some verses differently.

Some see eternal death as meaning: eternally dead for good, no reversing it - just eternally dead and gone. And some see eternally dead as being alive and in torment.

I have my suspicions that the lake of fire is death that for all eternity cannot be reversed. But I don't think one is alive and aware in that eternal death.

Others interpret it differently.
I would be careful, when deciding what the Word of God says. We can't trust in our own understanding, we always need to pray and ask God to reveal the truth about any part of scripture that's not plain. Most of the Bible is very plain and simple, but some things are not. That's when we need to pray for understanding and guidance
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
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#28
It reads to me like they will be brought to life again for the judgement, and will then die the second death.
Ok, but can you find a verse or verses from the Bible that show that the unsaved will have life again.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#29
Ok, but can you find a verse or verses from the Bible that show that the unsaved will have life again.
Well...yes. My interpretation is that all will be raised to life again for the judgement. That would include the unsaved.

But then the unsaved will die the second death and it will be an eternal state with no coming to life ever again.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#30
I cannot in any way grasp that eternal death means eternal life of torment. My mind can NOT grasp the thought.
 

spartanrmd

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
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#31
How do you deal with all the things Jesus said about hell being eternal and where the worm dies not. The Bible has said so much about hell, we can't just consider how loving God is. We need to consider all of Gods attributes, like His justice, wrath, righteousness. Hell is a very difficult doctrine but we must accept what Jesus said about it, regardless of how terrible it is.
im an attorney by trade - one of the most often used terms is "to weigh the evidence" At no time did Jesus say that one would burn in hell forever. dont conflict the term everlasting lake of fire with everlasting punishment -

the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.

why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.

the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard :)

That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today

I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
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#32
I cannot in any way grasp that eternal death means eternal life of torment. My mind can NOT grasp the thought.
Well I can say this that there is no life of torment, albeit many will disagree.

Now it does appear that the Bible does say that the unsaved will have life again, but that is far from the truth in all actuality they will never come to life again.
 

spartanrmd

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
13
11
3
#33
Well I can say this that there is no life of torment, albeit many will disagree.

Now it does appear that the Bible does say that the unsaved will have life again, but that is far from the truth in all actuality they will never come to life again.
all will be raised from the dead and face Gods judgement. But my contention is those not found in the lambs book of life will die the second death.

Remember - for the wages of sin is death - so all who die have paid the wages ?? if that were true why waste time having a judgement? all the wages have been paid - NO i believe the wages are the second death
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#34
im an attorney by trade - one of the most often used terms is "to weigh the evidence" At no time did Jesus say that one would burn in hell forever. dont conflict the term everlasting lake of fire with everlasting punishment -

the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.

why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.

the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard :)

That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today

I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
Interesting. Thank you.

Consider too, that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man cannot be in the lake of fire, because if he were, he would not be begging for Lazarus to be sent to warn his brothers, because the time of any warning would be over with.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,461
3,509
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#35
Does the Bible give us a clear picture of hell.

There are so many conflicting views on what hell is and what's it's like and who goes there.

My brother recently committed suicide and I'm so afraid that he's in hell now. He professed to be a believer in Christ, but I don't even know if it's possible for a true believer to take their own life.

In any case, hell is the most horrible thing one can imagine. It's rare to hear a sermon on hell, so it's one of those subjects nobody likes to talk about.

I would really like to know the truth about hell, are there people in it now, if so are they going to continue to burn forever, do all of it's inhabitants suffer the same punishment or level of pain, do the dead go to heaven or hell as soon as they die or do they have to wait for judgement day and is it possible for anyone who has taken their own life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'm absolutely devastated by the loss of my brother whom I loved dearly and I'm struggling with the thought that he might be suffering as we speak. Is it worth praying for him now, or is it too late to pray for him.
The eternal Lake of Fire is very real and people who will be cast into it on the day of Judgement will be in torment in it forever and ever as the scriptures clearly reveal..

But also the scriptures reveal that there is only 1 unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. All others sins are forgiven those who believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement Jesus secured for on the cross..

Suicide is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. So as a Christian i believe that suicide is a forgivable sin for anyone covered by the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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#36
This is one of the most twisted dogma that the church has ever come up with ever since the time of Charlemagne. The concept of a fiery hell and eternal torment would have been foreign to 1st and 2nd century Christians .
The above is false, in that the apostles of the 1st century are the ones who wrote the information about Hades and the lake of fire. Regarding this, when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, he will say to the goats on His left:

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Regarding those who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark scripture says:

"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

You would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience torment rising for ever and ever, as well has having no cessation of torment day or night.

Throughout the old testament the word hell is written as Sheol or Hades and universally is translated as the hidden place or the grave, Jacob went to hell, Hezekia, David and others to include Jesus went to hell - that is to the grave. NOT a place of fiery torment.
The above is also incorrect. Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are synonymous, i.e the same place. Whenever these words are used it is referring to the place of departed spirits. The word eido is defined as "the unseen place of departed spirits" not the grave. The Hebrew and Greek words for tomb, sepulcher and grave, respectively is qeber and Mnemeion. Whenever the word Sheol or Hades is used, it is referring to the where spirit goes after death.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Short Definition: Hades
Definition: Hades, the unseen world.

HELPS Word-studies
86
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tartaroo is mentioned by Peter as the place where the fallen angels are currently restrained an actual physical place (maybe its actually detroit). [/quote]

True! tartaroo/tartarus is used once in reference to the place of those angels that sinned, most likely referring to those angels who took wives from the progeny of men. Though the word is not found, I believe Jude is also referring to those angels and their being put into chains of darkness.

and the other is Gehanna - named after the valley/ditch outside of the walls of Jerusalem where horrible things such as child sacrifices took place and fire burned day and night burning bodies of the dead animals and criminals.

The lake of fire will be real and those not found in the lambs book of life will be cast into it and that is the second death - they will die and not survive.

For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life- death means death - our reward as Christians is eternal life
The above is false in that, you don't understand the scriptural meaning of death, which is not non-existence, but a state of conscious existence, the complete loss of well being, ruination, in separation from God in the lake of fire. Consider the following verse:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In the verse above, the same word "aionios" translated "eternal" is used for both the state of the wicked and the righteous and therefore must carry the same meaning. Eternal life is on-going conscious existence in the joy of the Lord. Eternal punishment then mush also be conscious existence in punishment. You can't have one mean something completely different than the other. If eternal punishment for the wicked is temporary, then eternal life would have to be temporary as well.

The logic of church people escapes me - how does a loving God whoes mercy endures forever - who IS love incarnate who forgives 7x77 and really forgives without remembering , who is the most just and merciful , how do these people square that up in there heads when they say a kind loving man from a country never having accepted Christ will burn in eternal torment forever??
Your error is that, God's love, grace and His mercy are for the living only. Once a person dies, their record is sealed. There will be no mercy, grace or love for those who die in their sins. The great white throne judgment will be a judgment for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. This will in fact be where the judge throws the book at them.

Those having faith in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. Those who reject Christ and die in that stated, they will be held accountable for every idle word that they ever spoke and that without any grace or mercy mixed in. For all sins must be accounted for. Ether Jesus was held accountable or the individual will be held accountable.

In the event of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man asked Abraham if he would send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they wouldn't come to that same place of torment. But he said that they had Moses and the prophets i.e. they had the word of God to warn them. There was no going back for the rich man and there is no going back for those who die without Christ.

These are the exactly what any thinking person would view as a cultic following that blindly follow dogma despite the common sense and teaching of the Holy Ghost

Anyone who follows a god that would do that is an idiot - even the Totenkapf SS had limits on torture of their victims.
The reason that the consequences are so harsh, is because all sin has been committed against the eternal, righteous and Holy God.

Everything isn't as black and white as churches teach - what about different levels of punishment ??? how are ones who hold themselves out to be teachers going to be judged more harshly ?? how is Sodom going to be Judged less harshly. What does the bible refer to as less stripes being delivered for punishment (has to be an end if its less than something - simple math
You're missing the picture here. Regardless of greater or lessor punishment, it will be non-the-less punishment. Just being inside the door is bad enough!
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
#37
Your right, I can't escape from what the scriptures say. Even though I try hard to believe that my brother is in heaven because he professed faith in Christ. Every time I read what the Bible says about hell, it seems to say that he is actually in hell. Grieving the loss of such a beautiful person is extremely hard, but the thought that he may be in hell is infinitely worse than the grief itself.
The teaching on enduring until the end is the one that makes me think he is lost because the act of taking ones own life suggests that he lost his faith.
So it''s extremely tragic all round and I'm shocked at the attitude of his friends who all say if God exists than he must be in heaven, because if a person like him ends up in hell then God is evil. His best friend abused me and got very angry with me when I said I hope he's not in hell. Most of his friends were roman Catholics and my whole family is Roman Catholic, I was visiting my brother regularly and sharing the Godpel with him and he was responding positivly but I feel I might have reached him too late.
I feel if I had more time he wouldn't have done it, I invited him to come to my Church and he said he would but then it happened. I feel like the Devil snatched him away before he got the chance to learn the truth about who God is.
M....,

No false hope but, if your brother had repented, was baptized and lived a life for Christ and then developed mental problems....G-d is not unfair...your brother will be eligible to receive eternal salvation.

Once a loved one leaves us...prayer is our last assistance.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#38
Ok, but can you find a verse or verses from the Bible that show that the unsaved will have life again.
The unsaved having Life as in well being in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God, that life?
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#39
im an attorney by trade - one of the most often used terms is "to weigh the evidence" At no time did Jesus say that one would burn in hell forever. dont conflict the term everlasting lake of fire with everlasting punishment -

the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.

why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.

the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard :)

That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today

I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
I still believe the overwhelming evidence points us to Gods everlasting judgement of unrepentant sinners. There are just too many examples in the Bible describing hell as a place of everlasting punishment for sin.

I would say Gods eternal unlimited love and eternal unlimited wrath, are both His attributes. It seems we have no problem accepting His boundless love but we just can't accept His boundless justice.
I think we can't use our own sense of justice and apply it to God, for God is infinitely more just. So I don't think we are in a position to disagree with anything God does.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#40
M....,

No false hope but, if your brother had repented, was baptized and lived a life for Christ and then developed mental problems....G-d is not unfair...your brother will be eligible to receive eternal salvation.

Once a loved one leaves us...prayer is our last assistance.
He was still a Roman Catholic when he died, but I did share the Gospel with him a few days before he died and whenI skaed him if he believed that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was cricified and reaised from the dead three days later, he said he believed in everything Jesus said and did.
I invited him to my Church and he said he would come but it never happened, he dies only days before we were to go to Church. I feel cheated, just as I was overjoyed by thinking he would come to Church and be baptized he was taken from me.