Is faith a reliable way to know truth?

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Jun 4, 2018
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But my example was not about being eating by animal, it was about murdering of an innocent person.

So my example is not about "something is good for a wolf, something is good for a sheep".
Right, but I just meant to say that just because all humans agree on something, does not make it objective.
For example, if all people agreed that chocolate is delicious, is it objectively delicious? No, because objectively delicious is not a thing, things are only delicious TO someone.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Right, but I just meant to say that just because all humans agree on something, does not make it objective.
OK, but I do not base anything on agreement of amount of humans.

Is it wrong or not? Is my presumption logically valid? Is it always wrong? Regardless if somebody agrees.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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OK, but I do not base anything on agreement of amount of humans.

Is it wrong or not? Is my presumption logically valid? Is it always wrong? Regardless if somebody agrees.
I'm not sure what you mean. I think it is wrong to murder an innocent person, yes. It is always wrong to me, and probably to most people. I don't think it is objectively wrong, because there is no such thing as objectively wrong.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I'm not sure what you mean. I think it is wrong to murder an innocent person, yes. It is always wrong to me, and probably to most people. I don't think it is objectively wrong, because there is no such thing as objectively wrong.
Thats a bad reasoning.

You (subjectively) do not belive there is something that is objectively wrong and therefore to murder an innocent person is just a subjective thing for you, even though you cannot find anything subjective its dependent on.

So, logic pushes it to be objective, but your disbelief in objectivness makes you to reject it.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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Thats a bad reasoning.

You (subjectively) do not belive there is something that is objectively wrong and therefore to murder an innocent person is just a subjective thing for you, even though you cannot find anything subjective its dependent on.
It is dependent on humans, that's what I said.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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Thats a bad reasoning.

You (subjectively) do not belive there is something that is objectively wrong and therefore to murder an innocent person is just a subjective thing for you, even though you cannot find anything subjective its dependent on.

So, logic pushes it to be objective, but your disbelief in objectivness makes you to reject it.
What is your definition of objective?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Can you define the difference between a living body but without conciousness (like somebody being on intensive care support) and
It is dependent on humans, that's what I said.

How exactly is it dependent on humans or on their opinions?

If some psychopat thinks its a good thing to murder somebody innocent on a street, does the moral law as such become subjective? No, its still objectively wrong and the murderer is morally ill.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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What is your definition of objective?
I think I am OK with the wiki definition:

"Objectivity is a central philosophical concept, objective means being independent of the perceptions... Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being even outside a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)
 
Jun 4, 2018
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Can you define the difference between a living body but without conciousness (like somebody being on intensive care support) and



How exactly is it dependent on humans or on their opinions?

If some psychopat thinks its a good thing to murder somebody innocent on a street, does the moral law as such become subjective? No, its still objectively wrong and the murderer is morally ill.
I'm not sure what you mean by moral law. I agree that the murderer is morally ill, but the murderer obviously does not. So, yes, it is subjective.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I'm not sure what you mean by moral law. I agree that the murderer is morally ill, but the murderer obviously does not. So, yes, it is subjective.
So when I do not agree with the theory of relativity, its not an objective law?

Or, when I do not agree with evolution, it is not an objective fact, then?

---

Validity and objectivity is independent on agreement of individuals. Individuals can think in a right or in a wrong way. Dependent on how they comply with objective laws, with reality.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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So when I do not agree with the theory of relativity, its not an objective law?
Of course not. The theory of relativity is something that can be calculated and demonstrated by experiment. Your individual biases, feelings and imaginings do not change the outcome. Can you demonstrate by experiment that murdering an innocent person is wrong?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Of course not. The theory of relativity is something that can be calculated and demonstrated by experiment. Your individual biases, feelings and imaginings do not change the outcome. Can you demonstrate by experiment that murdering an innocent person is wrong?
What experiment do you propose?

For some cases, logic must be enough.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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trofimus, this discussion has been super interesting, but I really have to work on my thesis now.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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God is not his creative handiwork.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The things of God are invisible.

But you can see them plainly in God’s creation.

Yet, atheists claim they are blind and can’t see the things of God. But the scripture says that God showed the atheists the evide
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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trofimus, this discussion has been super interesting, but I really have to work on my thesis now.
No prob, I need to go away from my PC for now...
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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God is not his creative handiwork.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The things of God are invisible.

But you can see them plainly in God’s creation.

Yet, atheists claim they are blind and can’t see the things of God.
But the scripture says that God showed the atheists the evidence.
And God deniers are indeed religious. Seeking what they say they don’t think exists.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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So, God sent his only begotten Son into the world, born of a virgin, born of the house of David, heir to Abraham, heir to all that is Adam’s.
And if you want to find God receive the words of Jesus, come to Jesus.

To come into fellowship with Jesus you keep faith with him.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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In general, it is genetically beneficial not to hurt others. After all, you share at least 99% of your genes with other humans. Sure, there might be scenarios where a man's best option for promoting his genes would be to rape a woman, but genes don't deal with "scenarios", only what works in general.

Genes don't decide anything about promoting themselves. The ones that stick around are just the ones that make an organism best adapted to survive in an environment.

But like I mentioned, genes provide only basic moral instincts. The specifics are cultural.
I disagree that In general, it is genetically beneficial not to hurt others.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Look at the animal kingdom. Lions dogs cats birds. sometimes they will cooperate with other members of their species, sometimes they fight.

The same is true with humans. Sometimes it makes sense to cooperate with other humans, other times it makes sense to take your Spear and try to drive away the Rival Hunting Party.

from an evolutionary Viewpoint, every human behavior is the result of evolutionary processes. Does rape occur? It is the result of evolution.

I understand the genes don't actually decide anything. I was simply personifying them to make it easier, more everyday life, to talk about.

culture is simply a term we use to describe the behaviors of large groups of humans. but these behaviors are all products of evolution, genes.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Renate,

so, moving on to the brain.

how do you make decisions? Is there any kind of Soul or Spirit involved, Or are the decisions you make solely the result of mechanistic physical processes?
 
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