Is faith a reliable way to know truth?

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Sep 4, 2012
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Ok, my definition of "science" is probably more broad than yours. Yours is more technical.
Having a technical mind is a blessing and a curse. :) Here's what I was referring to:

“No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.” ― Albert Einstein
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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hi Renate,

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but if you're an atheist you probably say that the best way to know something is some version of the scientific method. Yes?

so then, regarding good and evil, what would science have to say? What are your thoughts?
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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If, for example, a Hindu says "I have faith that Vishnu is my lord and saviour", does that make Vishnu true?
Faith begins with & is worthless without; Christ as the foundation:

Hebrews 12: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(NOTE: Christ is the author & finisher of all faith)

It's Christ's faithful work & our faith placed in it

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by "faith of Jesus Christ" unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(NOTE: The Faith "OF" Christ)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the "faith of Christ" and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(NOTE: It's the Faith "OF" Christ and thru the righteousness of Christ's faith. Christ becomes the Lord our righteousness. And God justifies us "Declares us Righteous in His sight)

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(NOTE: It's our Faith placed in Christ's work)

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but "that which is through the faith of Christ", the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(NOTE: The Faith "OF" Christ)

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence (SIN) of one (ADAM) judgment came upon all men to condemnation (DEATH) even so by the righteousness of one (JESUS) the free gift (RIGHTEOUSNESS) came upon all men unto justification of life.

Its Jesus Faith that wins the war. Adam sinned against Holy Laws. Jesus was Faithful to Holy Laws.

We access Gods Grace thru Faith (Rom 5:2) placed in Christ's finished redemptive sin atoning sacrificial work. Found in Christ's death, burial & resurrection. Then God imputes/transfers Christ's righteousness onto us & transfers/imputes our sins onto Christ. See this process in Lev 4 & Rom 4:3-8)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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so then, regarding good and evil, what would science have to say?
Science would put poison in one bottle and elixer in the other and invite the atheist to take a sip from each one (both with clear labeling so there is no misunderstanding). Do you think the atheist would drink the poison?
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Science would put poison in one bottle and elixer in the other and invite the atheist to take a sip from each one (both with clear labeling so there is no misunderstanding). Do you think the atheist would drink the poison?
Sounds like an interesting metaphor, but I don't quite follow.
What does it mean?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Sounds like an interesting metaphor, but I don't quite follow.
What does it mean?
POISON = EVIL
ELIXER = GOOD

What it means is that the atheist must recognize the existence of good and evil in this world, and then make an effort to determine the source of each one. The honest atheist would have to accept that goodness comes from God, and that there is none good (perfectly righteous) except God.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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Yep, defintely hit a nerve...
We all know you're not a Christian.

1. Christians don't clearly say in their profile they're NOT Christians.

2. Christians don't get upset when someone asks if they're Christians.

3. Christians don't do everything possible to keep from admitting they're Christians.

4. Christians don't hide their beliefs at any time, least of all right in the midst of their fellow Christians.

5. Christians don't spin vague statements, and fearfully hide behind them, to conceal their beliefs from all enquiry.

6. Finally.... Christians don't show up in threads that attack the Christian faith, and then JOIN in that attack on the Christian faith.
It doesn't upset me for someone to ask me the reason for the hope in me, I enjoy the opportunity to discuss my faith. As far as hiding their beliefs, you might look at your own refusal to answer any specific questions before you speak since I make every attempt to respond to any questions I am asked unless I just miss the post.

We all KNOW you're not a Christian: you admit you're not a Christian, and you even attack the Christian faith... so let's just dispense with all the double-talk you keep putting up like a smokescreen.


Again, where is it written in the scriptures that a person must claim to be a Christian?

What DO you believe?
Are you an atheist?
Are you a deist?
Are you a Muslim?
Are you a Buddhist?
Are you in some weird cult that you're too ashamed to even mention?
What is it?
As I have stated before, that I would describe my faith as Deism with an unction by chráomai. (See Isaiah 59:1)

How about just act like a man, and tell everyone what you actually believe?


I have hope and believe in an eternal, immutable God who is without beginning or days or end and does not change in nature or form.
I have faith in the LORD, the only begotten of the eternal God, who is the image of the invisible Light that no man has seen, nor can see and who only hath immortality.
I hold that the LORD is a God of truth, the firstborn of all living, who is before all things and by him all things where are were made from.

I could go on but no sense in boring you with things you don't believe.


----------------------
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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How is that different from belief without evidence?
Faith, biblically speaking, is belief in "B" because of the evidence for "A". There is clear evidence of Christ's resurrection. I don't need to see Him or put my finger in His side to believe that He has risen (as Thomas did). The evidence available to me is sufficient that I believe the clear implications of it. Further, because I believe that Jesus has risen, I have faith that I will rise after physical death as well.

Can you show me the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus? I have never seen any that held up to scrutiny .
As requested... here is a link to a summary article on the subject. It briefly outlines serveral key points of evidence for the resurrection.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection
 
Jun 4, 2018
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hi Renate,

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but if you're an atheist you probably say that the best way to know something is some version of the scientific method. Yes?

so then, regarding good and evil, what would science have to say? What are your thoughts?
I think that our morality comes from innate instincts to preserve our genes and from cultural norms. Scientists have discovered that many animal species have a basic sense of morality too. For example, monkeys will get upset when they see another monkey being treated unfairly. Altruism evolved because it is beneficial to the preservation of your genes to be altruistic. So everyone has a basic sense of morality, but the specifics differ per culture, which is the result of cultural evolution. As for evil, I don't believe it exists. Even the most atrocious crimes are commited with the best intentions, however misguided. And things like diseases and natural disaster are not evil either, it's simply nature doing its thing. They are only evil from the human perspective.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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As for evil, I don't believe it exists. Even the most atrocious crimes are commited with the best intentions, however misguided. And things like diseases and natural disaster are not evil either, it's simply nature doing its thing. They are only evil from the human perspective.
Sounds like you're being brainwashed with moral relativism.
 
Jun 4, 2018
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Faith, biblically speaking, is belief in "B" because of the evidence for "A". There is clear evidence of Christ's resurrection. I don't need to see Him or put my finger in His side to believe that He has risen (as Thomas did). The evidence available to me is sufficient that I believe the clear implications of it. Further, because I believe that Jesus has risen, I have faith that I will rise after physical death as well.



As requested... here is a link to a summary article on the subject. It briefly outlines serveral key points of evidence for the resurrection.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection
Thanks! It's interesting to me that the article does not cite any of the critics it talks about. I don't think the evidence holds up to scrutiny, at all. Here are some articles about casting doubt on it:

https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/resurrection/lecture.html
http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=5158
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Well, I don't know about being brainwashed, but I do think morality is relative.
Maybe in some details or in cultural context, but do you think that moral laws are relative?

For example:

"to murder an innocent person is wrong"

- is this relative?
 
Jun 4, 2018
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Maybe in some details or in cultural context, but do you think that moral laws are relative?

For example:

"to murder an innocent person is wrong"

- is this relative?
Yes. It just so happens that pretty much all cultures agree that murdering an innocent person is wrong. That does not mean it is objectively wrong, or that there is such a thing as objectively wrong.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Yes. It just so happens that pretty much all cultures agree that murdering an innocent person is wrong. That does not mean it is objectively wrong, or that there is such a thing as objectively wrong.
Can you define your view of relativity?

Because if its valid everytime and everywhere, its not relative, then.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I think that our morality comes from innate instincts to preserve our genes and from cultural norms. Scientists have discovered that many animal species have a basic sense of morality too. For example, monkeys will get upset when they see another monkey being treated unfairly. Altruism evolved because it is beneficial to the preservation of your genes to be altruistic. So everyone has a basic sense of morality, but the specifics differ per culture, which is the result of cultural evolution. As for evil, I don't believe it exists. Even the most atrocious crimes are commited with the best intentions, however misguided. And things like diseases and natural disaster are not evil either, it's simply nature doing its thing. They are only evil from the human perspective.
What are these "best intentions" of the most atrocious crimes?

I would consider the rape and murder of a young child an atrocious crime, can you tell me what the best intention is there?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Sep 4, 2012
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Yes. It just so happens that pretty much all cultures agree that murdering an innocent person is wrong. That does not mean it is objectively wrong, or that there is such a thing as objectively wrong.
Well, I don't know about being brainwashed, but I do think morality is relative.
Your beliefs are inherently contradictory. You said elsewhere that all people act with good intentions, but those who do atrociously are misguided. If morality is relative, who are you to judge and impose your morality on other people by calling it misguided? If someone raped you, what right would you have to complain and impose your morality upon him by calling it misguided or wrong?
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Thanks for your reply! Actually I used to be a Christian, I went to church every sunday. I just started having lots of questions that no one seemed to be able to answer convincingly.
I understand your view here, but the truth of the matter is you can't honestly "used to be a Christian". I know you don't understand this because I saw you ask up there "what's the spirit of truth". That was this biggest part I was missing and didn't understand when I thought I was Christian before I was truly reborn. Being "reborn", "regenerated", "made new", "reconciled to the Almighty Creator", “receiving His Holy Spirit”, these are not just club house catch phrases. This is an actual event, something that actually happens to you, it changes your priorities, desires, and blindness to the things of God. These are not things God opens your eyes to that you can just decide later aren't real and drop out. That is why I can say to you that you never knew Him, not because I'm trying to be arrogant or judgmental, but you can no more meet someone in person, then turn around and truly convince yourself they don't exist, than you can make yourself believe in God. He reveals Himself, and at least in my experience, that is not something that can be undone logically in my mind.



I do think you're asking the best questions ever though. This is something I was completely blind to for 33 years of my life, so I understand how it makes no sense to you, especially after feeling like you've "done that" already, and know what it's all about. I found myself feeling the exact same way after a motorcycle wreak took all function from my right arm. I thought I had "done that Christian thing" and it wasn't helping. If I ever believed in God before, I didn't then, but I knew that the doctors couldn't fix me, science couldn't help me, God couldn't or at least wasn't helping me
(the way I thought He should anyway), and above all that "I" couldn't fix me. I was stuck. The funny thing is all these thoughts, all this was going through my mind the night of my rebirth, I was broken, smashed, back up against the wall with no hope at all. I wanted to kill myself so bad, but couldn't leave my two boys in the world like that, again just stuck. When I hit my knees I was not crying out to God, I was not crying out with any hope of being fixed, I was crying out in complete and total defeat in life as a whole. I had failed life and could not do it anymore. Once I pulled myself together I got in bed and woke up a "new man".



I don't want to make this post too long, and these people have had to hear me tell this story 1,000 time, but I would absolutely love to get with you and answer any questions you may have, to the best of my ability, and listen to your perspectives and ask you some questions as well. I understand how big a word like truth truly is, and how big the claim Jesus made as far as actually being truth is, but it is true, and so very gloriously so. Keep seeking that truth brother, there's nothing more important.
 
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