Is faith a work?
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Very good post my friend.
I have discussed and argued at great length with FreeGrace2 but to no avail. He, by his own admission, has stated on many occasions, that he is not interested in being taught thus, he sees himself as a teacher that has already arrived at the truth. He also on two occasions has said, that he is not interested in the opinions of others. The opinions of men like Polycarp, Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther, John Gill or A.W. Pink. So what can you say to a person like that? His pride is deep.
While the opinions of men, must be confirmed by Holy Writ, they should not be rejected out of hand. This is how we test our beliefs and grow in knowledge. Otherwise, the membership in a local assembly, of our Lord, would be meaningless, as touching preaching and edification of the Saints.
Sadly, too many are on these chats to spout their beliefs and not to learn from others. A malady that now pervades our modern society. Everyone has an opinion but no one is listening.
Tit_2:1 But speak thou the things which befit sound doctrine:
2Ti_4:3&4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I have discussed and argued at great length with FreeGrace2 but to no avail. He, by his own admission, has stated on many occasions, that he is not interested in being taught thus, he sees himself as a teacher that has already arrived at the truth. He also on two occasions has said, that he is not interested in the opinions of others. The opinions of men like Polycarp, Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther, John Gill or A.W. Pink. So what can you say to a person like that? His pride is deep.
While the opinions of men, must be confirmed by Holy Writ, they should not be rejected out of hand. This is how we test our beliefs and grow in knowledge. Otherwise, the membership in a local assembly, of our Lord, would be meaningless, as touching preaching and edification of the Saints.
Sadly, too many are on these chats to spout their beliefs and not to learn from others. A malady that now pervades our modern society. Everyone has an opinion but no one is listening.
Tit_2:1 But speak thou the things which befit sound doctrine:
2Ti_4:3&4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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Not accurate at all. I study the way the Bereans did (Acts 17:11). I believe that truth can be found CLEARY in Scripture, which is what the Bereans also thought. So my goal is to ask posters for verses that SAY what they SAY. And that's when things get weird. I've been called all kinds of things when they can't do that. Not that they don't have verses, but the verses don't SAY what they SAY, and I point that out.
If someone can quote a verse that obviously says what they say, I'm very teachable, and I can't refute verses that are clear.
However, take for example, the doctrine of election, that election is to salvation, which even Arminians seem to accept. There is not any verse that shows election is to salvation. In fact, in every verse where the purpose of election is either stated, or simply noted, it is ALWAYS to service. But you should see the blowback from Calvinists. Just because I stepped on their toes on one of their fav doctrines.
Can you explain how anyone's opinion trumps the clear truth of Scripture?
This isn't about pride, my friend. It's about the truth. The CLEAR truth. I've read some of Pink's stuff and he should be ashamed. Even when I was young, his "arguments" were pitiful and I was able to easily defeat them.
If someone can quote a verse that obviously says what they say, I'm very teachable, and I can't refute verses that are clear.
However, take for example, the doctrine of election, that election is to salvation, which even Arminians seem to accept. There is not any verse that shows election is to salvation. In fact, in every verse where the purpose of election is either stated, or simply noted, it is ALWAYS to service. But you should see the blowback from Calvinists. Just because I stepped on their toes on one of their fav doctrines.
Can you explain how anyone's opinion trumps the clear truth of Scripture?
This isn't about pride, my friend. It's about the truth. The CLEAR truth. I've read some of Pink's stuff and he should be ashamed. Even when I was young, his "arguments" were pitiful and I was able to easily defeat them.
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WB: It seems to me that his fixation with labelling people as Calvinists (with whom he evidently disagrees even though when asked to give specific quotes from Calvin himself didn't do so) and other ists, is a self erected barrier to his understanding.
I quoted words that are assigned to Luther - and I've also at other times quoted Calvin and others - because I agree with those specific words BUT only when it harmonizes with Scripture.
It does sound rather dogmatic I will readily agree but there are indeed certain things of which one can speak about dogmatically e.g. 2 times 2 is 4; the Earth revolves around the Sun; God exists ....and if people want to dispute those things the onus is on them to substantiate their view by reference to hard facts and evidence.
Unfortunately, many who identify as Christian don't actually drill down into the details to establish with certainty that that which they have accepted from authority figures may very well not be Truth.
I quoted words that are assigned to Luther - and I've also at other times quoted Calvin and others - because I agree with those specific words BUT only when it harmonizes with Scripture.
It does sound rather dogmatic I will readily agree but there are indeed certain things of which one can speak about dogmatically e.g. 2 times 2 is 4; the Earth revolves around the Sun; God exists ....and if people want to dispute those things the onus is on them to substantiate their view by reference to hard facts and evidence.
Unfortunately, many who identify as Christian don't actually drill down into the details to establish with certainty that that which they have accepted from authority figures may very well not be Truth.
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If you don't understand what Calvinism is, go chek a website. There are many to read from. Most people who teach Calvinistic doctrines have never read Calvin himself. So what? His teachings are being taught in many seminaries. You don't need to "read Calvin" to understand reformed theology.
The problem is that neither Calvinism or Arminianism harmonizes with Scripture. I know that because I have applied the Berean study method to both and found that they cannot provide verses that SAY what they SAY.
That is exactly right! When someone claims the Bible teaches something, always ask them for the verses that say what they claim.
That's when the fun begins.
The problem is that neither Calvinism or Arminianism harmonizes with Scripture. I know that because I have applied the Berean study method to both and found that they cannot provide verses that SAY what they SAY.
That is exactly right! When someone claims the Bible teaches something, always ask them for the verses that say what they claim.
That's when the fun begins.
Please show me a scripture that says faith is the substance of our belief?
Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for.
If we are hoping for something, then we dont actually have faith it, but we have the substance of it.
We will receive the manifestation of the substance at the end of our faith.
receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9
The end result of salvation by faith is the salvation of our soul… f we continue in the faith, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23
JLB
I'm not seeing the beauty in this plan. Please help me see it.
If faith is a gift, would you please explain why God decides to punish those with hellfire who He decided wouldn't be given this gift of faith?
And could you please explain the justice in holding people responsible for their sinful nature when the only option available for sin absolution has been denied to them?
If possible, please cite verses. Thank you.
If faith is a gift, would you please explain why God decides to punish those with hellfire who He decided wouldn't be given this gift of faith?
And could you please explain the justice in holding people responsible for their sinful nature when the only option available for sin absolution has been denied to them?
If possible, please cite verses. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing and I agree. The baptism of fire is often misunderstood to be a good thing, but it isn't. The baptism of fire is being destroyed as if utterly reduced to ashes. For anyone who reads this, check Matthew 3 and pay close attention.
I was asking more about faith being a gift though. Doesn't make sense to me the longer I think about it.
I was asking more about faith being a gift though. Doesn't make sense to me the longer I think about it.
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I think we talked about that once before, how giving something for someone to believe in isn’t like imputing faith to them.
For example, on behalf of someone else, I’m giving you this comment to believe in. Did you supernaturally or divinely believe my comment, or did I present you with an option to believe or reject it?
Most translations address the nuance of Philippians 1:29 by wording it as something granted or something given as a privilege.
For example, on behalf of someone else, I’m giving you this comment to believe in. Did you supernaturally or divinely believe my comment, or did I present you with an option to believe or reject it?
Most translations address the nuance of Philippians 1:29 by wording it as something granted or something given as a privilege.
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runningham
God according to His own good pleasure He purposed to make some of the human family to be sinners and for them to experience His Mercy, to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, and then He also, in order for His Grace and Mercy to be praised, He purposed and created some of the human family to be sinners to experience His justice and wrath for their sins, to the praise of His Justice. See Rom 9
God according to His own good pleasure He purposed to make some of the human family to be sinners and for them to experience His Mercy, to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, and then He also, in order for His Grace and Mercy to be praised, He purposed and created some of the human family to be sinners to experience His justice and wrath for their sins, to the praise of His Justice. See Rom 9
FreeGrace2 said:
God gives people the opportunity to believe.
Your opinion is false.
Titus 2:11 plainly says that the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. That is an opportunity, whether you grasp it or not.
As to Phil 1:29, to be "given to believe" is an opportunity, again, whether you grasp it or not.
There are no verses that show or say that God is the cause of belief.
In fact, Rom 10:10 SAYS that man believes from his heart. Totally dismisses your opinion.
God gives people the opportunity to believe.
Your opinion is false.
Titus 2:11 plainly says that the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. That is an opportunity, whether you grasp it or not.
As to Phil 1:29, to be "given to believe" is an opportunity, again, whether you grasp it or not.
There are no verses that show or say that God is the cause of belief.
In fact, Rom 10:10 SAYS that man believes from his heart. Totally dismisses your opinion.
It is a beautiful plan because God determined to save some for Himself. Otherwise, the whole of Creation would have been lost.
The following questions should help guide ones thinking.
1.) Did God know that Adam was going to transgress and sin? YES.
2.) Did Adams "Fall" take all of mankind with Him? YES (Rom. 5:14&15)
3.) Did this "Fall" destroy the original Uprightness of mankind's nature? YES (Ecc. 7:29)
4.) Does mankind then need another form of "Uprightness" (Righteousness)? YES
In Genesis 3:7 - When they had lost their original uprightness and saw that they were naked, they attempted to create their own by covering themselves with fig leaves. A human form of righteousness but this would never do in the presence of a Thrice Holy God. So God gave them a temporary form of "Uprightness", in the form of animal skins - Gen. 3:21. The first of many animal sacrifices recorded in the Scriptures, until the final Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Now that mankind would be born Sinners - that is with a Sin nature, instead of an Upright nature - his love of sin would not allow him to genuinely chose God and His Christ. To do so, would go against his very nature and NO ONE acts against his nature. God is Holy in Nature and acts according to His nature. Mankind are sinners by nature and act according to their nature. (Gal. 4:8; Eph. 2:3)
However, before God ever Created anything, He chose to save some. This is His Elective Grace.
Mankind deserved death and eternal punishment. This is all that they deserved. They Transgressed and fell short. They loved sin more than they loved their God. God's Holy Law cried out for satisfaction. They all must die!
This being the case, God does no harm by saving those He chose. As Creator, He has the right to show Mercy and Compassion upon those He so chooses. Even in our American Society, the President has the right to Commute the sentence of another - if he so chooses to do so. This in no way does harm to the others who are guilty. They deserve what they are getting, under the law. Nor is the President required to Commute ALL, in order to Commute ONE. We except this as Americans but would deny God this same liberty.
The following questions should help guide ones thinking.
1.) Did God know that Adam was going to transgress and sin? YES.
2.) Did Adams "Fall" take all of mankind with Him? YES (Rom. 5:14&15)
3.) Did this "Fall" destroy the original Uprightness of mankind's nature? YES (Ecc. 7:29)
4.) Does mankind then need another form of "Uprightness" (Righteousness)? YES
In Genesis 3:7 - When they had lost their original uprightness and saw that they were naked, they attempted to create their own by covering themselves with fig leaves. A human form of righteousness but this would never do in the presence of a Thrice Holy God. So God gave them a temporary form of "Uprightness", in the form of animal skins - Gen. 3:21. The first of many animal sacrifices recorded in the Scriptures, until the final Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Now that mankind would be born Sinners - that is with a Sin nature, instead of an Upright nature - his love of sin would not allow him to genuinely chose God and His Christ. To do so, would go against his very nature and NO ONE acts against his nature. God is Holy in Nature and acts according to His nature. Mankind are sinners by nature and act according to their nature. (Gal. 4:8; Eph. 2:3)
However, before God ever Created anything, He chose to save some. This is His Elective Grace.
Mankind deserved death and eternal punishment. This is all that they deserved. They Transgressed and fell short. They loved sin more than they loved their God. God's Holy Law cried out for satisfaction. They all must die!
This being the case, God does no harm by saving those He chose. As Creator, He has the right to show Mercy and Compassion upon those He so chooses. Even in our American Society, the President has the right to Commute the sentence of another - if he so chooses to do so. This in no way does harm to the others who are guilty. They deserve what they are getting, under the law. Nor is the President required to Commute ALL, in order to Commute ONE. We except this as Americans but would deny God this same liberty.
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awelight asked
#1 Yes since God created Adam for His already established redemptive purpose, or whats called His Eternal Purpose here in Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
#2 I actually believe Adams fall was representative of Gods elect only, but that is a different discussion
#3 Yes, It put to death any life and fellowship Man had in Adam with God
#4 Yes, we see what happened with the upright, innocent righteousness of man in Adam, it sins and falls short of the Glory of God
Agreeable
We are born naturally at enmity with God, the True God Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Agreed Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Yes we deserved condemnation and death
Agreed !
#1 Yes since God created Adam for His already established redemptive purpose, or whats called His Eternal Purpose here in Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
#2 I actually believe Adams fall was representative of Gods elect only, but that is a different discussion
#3 Yes, It put to death any life and fellowship Man had in Adam with God
#4 Yes, we see what happened with the upright, innocent righteousness of man in Adam, it sins and falls short of the Glory of God
Agreeable
We are born naturally at enmity with God, the True God Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Agreed Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Yes we deserved condemnation and death
Agreed !
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I don't think that's completely accurate. Paul can talk a lot and the point he is trying to make in Roman's 9 will eventually result in something completely different in later chapters. Really Romans needs to be read a great many times, there is a lot of context and it's all connected to earlier points used as a basis for later points. Romans is basically Paul's theology on Christianity.
While Paul is talking about those who don't believe in Romans 9, he confesses in the next chapter that they can come to believe in Christ.
Romans 10
9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
While Paul is talking about those who don't believe in Romans 9, he confesses in the next chapter that they can come to believe in Christ.
Romans 10
9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”