Is God for real? Can you prove it?

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Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
757
393
63
#21
One can produce wonderful arguments as to the necessity of a “Creator.”
It then remains to accurately portray that creator. Many believe we are created by aliens; remember the words from the song “Woodstock?” Many believe we did come from the dust, but “stardust.”

Words only have the power to convince when God adds His power to them.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
#22
This is actually mathematically poor argument. It assumes that books are written and/or molecular chemistry goes on under a uniform probability distribution. i.e. every combination of letters is equally likely or every orientation of two molecules to each other. This is false assumption. For example, if you have the letter q in English in a string of letters that represents a word, it is not just as likely the next letter is z or f as it is the next letter is u. Almost 100% the next letter is u. If you have a molecule with a negative pole you aren't going to find it oriented to an adjacent molecule next to a negative pole on it, it will be drawn to a positive pole.

These aren't completely random events. That's a false characterization of their origins and completely ignores observed characteristics of the universe: the ubiquity of law.
I agree on the micro scale there are effects which may effect the probability distribution.
But we are talking here macro random effects. The probability of creating just Psalm 119 without an relationship between the letters is a real observable fact. The writing on the page of paper is written by man. It cannot have come from any other source.
Life is even more complex and involved. With all our advances in understanding the problem has actually got worse not better, and life can only have evolved through creative conditions, unique to a particular situation.
And these creative conditions have not yet been created though we know all the chemistry and biology down to the degree of being able to create actual DNA strands artificially.

So when you have all the building blocks and cannot even manufacture the building and we know far more than random chance, how on earth is random existence meant to have done it. Worse still the only friendly place for life we know, and I mean only, is planet earth. And the only building block is water. And the only way to tranfer life from one location to another is through the vastness of space which is just absurd, 100,000's of years just to get our of our local area in our galaxy. So if random effects made life then we would have made it already. It is really this simple. In truth the deeper we understand biology the more complex it turns out to be.
It is funny because people have started to understand cell wall pumps, and they are so good, it is suggested we should make some big scale. So at the microscopic scale, God has created better things than we have yet thought up, what a wonder, God is so great, I just bow in adoration to the King.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
#23
I had a chat with an atheist quite some time ago. It was a very interesting and yet a heated conversation. I had posted an image on Instagram which compared the sequence of the creation in the bible and the sequence in the big bang theory. I received many positive comments. But this one person had started a conversation which then went on as an argument but ended up very friendly.
He started off saying the bible isn't accurate and that the God of the bible doesn't exist and that these were man made stories. He debated that if God created sun, moon, stars on day 4, how can there be plants on day 3?
I replied God created light on day 1 and so there were some energy of the light spectrum still there that may have caused their growth. Also God is light Himself. That is the faith I have. With God all things are possible I said. When God said let there be light even before sun, moon and stars were created, the science says so too that there was light first just after the big bang before the sun, moon, stars came into existence, where argument becomes weak.
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-ba...-the-first-light-in-the-universe-8a985cb5f02b

My statement was this. Bible is the true Word of God. In the beginning God created the heaven and earth. If the bible says so then I believe that as it says. Before everything came into existence God was there. For He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is Omnipotent Omnipresent God. God created man in His own image. He is a Loving God yet He is a Just God who judges righteously both the living and the dead. Hence He came after us even after the fall of mankind in the garden of Eden, by giving His only begotten Son for the salvation of entire mankind. This is what true love is. For very rarely someone dies for a righteous person but here Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. There is no greater Love than to lay down your life for someone. And that is what Jesus did. He died on the cross for you and me, for our sins he hung on that cross and He rose again on the third day witnessed by many, ascended into the heaven and is coming back soon.
The entire bible is a narrative of Gods plan for mankind. Its a historical book which talks about the major kingdoms that ruled the world and is so accurate to every detail when compared with that of the secular history. Its a prophetical book of which most of the prophecies have been fulfilled except a few more.

Big bang theory says from no where the universe came into existence. Is that even possible for real? If you (atheist friend I was conversing with) have parked your car in the garage and and go to bed, the next day when you go to work wont you find the car in the garage? Or you can tell me that I don't know where the car came from but its just there somehow. Now that is a lie is it not? Bible says God created the heaven and earth. So I know for sure. But this is just a theory which came in from few centuries ago by finite man. I would rather believe the Bible which is the written word of God giving account of events since 6000 years ago by an Infinite Almighty God.

If there is a creature there must be a creator. I say God is real as every living creature, the universe, mountain, ocean, trees are a proof of His creation work. They testify about God Himself. So where is the proof of non existence of God? Can it be proved? I don't think so.

The evolution theory says man evolved from monkeys. But Bible says God created mankind and all animals birds and insects. So if supposing the theory is correct, why hasn't man evolved into a new creature yet? So this is contradicting itself.

The definition of Theory in wiki - " A theory is a contemplative and rational type of abstract or generalizing thinking, or the results of such thinking".
Theories are man made. They are not proved yet. Finite man is here today but vanishes tomorrow. Why would I believe what a man says and not God ? I believe the 100% truth of the bible and its accuracy which is from God Himself.

As a closing statement i told my atheist friend, " Alright dear friend and brother. If suppose I am wrong about God is real, in the end when I die I am not gonna lose anything because according to you there is no heaven and hell and hence no accountability. But, if you are wrong, and I am correct, that there is one true God and He is gonna judge every soul either to eternal life or eternal damnation, and that heaven and hell is real..then you are gonna be the loser without the salvation message of Jesus Christ in the bible. Hope someday the Lord speaks to you and touches you brother and friend."
Next thing came out surprising to me as he said "of all the people of the bible I have spoken or debated with you were patient and very friendly and I really enjoyed talking to you."
I praised God for that brother that night before going to bed as the incident moved me very much. I prayed that his eyes maybe opened to the knowledge of the truth of the gospel someday. For we only plant the seeds but it is God who brings forth the fruits in them.
God didn't create light on the first day.
He created light on the 4th day.

And in Chapter one Man gets created at the end of creation...plants already there.
In chapter two man gets created first and then the plants come into being.

It's not easy speaking to an atheist....
and using the bible is not the best way of convincing anyone that God exists.

You ended up with Paschal's wager...that doesn't really work either, although we all love to bring it up.

What's the right way?
I don't know.
It seems like we have to prepare the soil...
then someone else plants,
someone waters...
but God causes the growth.
 
Sep 17, 2018
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#24
One can produce wonderful arguments as to the necessity of a “Creator.”
It then remains to accurately portray that creator. Many believe we are created by aliens; remember the words from the song “Woodstock?” Many believe we did come from the dust, but “stardust.”

Words only have the power to convince when God adds His power to them.
Yes true. Ty. And it is the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts a person and can convince too. For the Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit!
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
#25
God didn't create light on the first day.
He created light on the 4th day.

And in Chapter one Man gets created at the end of creation...plants already there.
In chapter two man gets created first and then the plants come into being.

It's not easy speaking to an atheist....
and using the bible is not the best way of convincing anyone that God exists.

You ended up with Paschal's wager...that doesn't really work either, although we all love to bring it up.

What's the right way?
I don't know.
It seems like we have to prepare the soil...
then someone else plants,
someone waters...
but God causes the growth.
Hi Grace101,

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
gen 1:3

Light is the fist creative command by God.
What God created on the 4th day was things that became visible which gave forth the light.

Creation is a strange story, because it is written from the perspective of someone on the planet.
Each day of creation has an evening and a morning. Now as we know this effect, it is actually the
planet revolving with a source of light from one direction.
If you have light obscured by clouds, it can appear that the light is general over the whole scene.
Add on to this only God was witness to this event, so He is the story teller.

So I am not going to wonder too deeply as to why he put creation this way, but rather just observe
the contents. My observation is the creation story is simple enough to say God created everything,
it had an order and a structure, and each level was good and thought through.

What is unusual is putting two different perspectives together. This seems to cement the idea these
are allegories, which tell basic facts, but not all the complexities. Funnily enough, it has been theorised
our whole existence could be a computer projection, as the universe appears to be a mathematical
construct, rather than something mathematics in buried within. So I just wonder and praise Him, and
know when we meet Him it will be clearer, maybe, :)
 
Sep 17, 2018
19
16
3
36
#26
God didn't create light on the first day.
He created light on the 4th day.

And in Chapter one Man gets created at the end of creation...plants already there.
In chapter two man gets created first and then the plants come into being.

It's not easy speaking to an atheist....
and using the bible is not the best way of convincing anyone that God exists.

You ended up with Paschal's wager...that doesn't really work either, although we all love to bring it up.

What's the right way?
I don't know.
It seems like we have to prepare the soil...
then someone else plants,
someone waters...
but God causes the growth.
Thank you for responding.
About God didn't create light on the first day but on 4th day...i have to disagree.

Gen chap 1 says...
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


God did create light on day 1.
And the sun, moon and stars on day4.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


And about chap 1 and 2 regarding man first or plants first?
There is no contradiction in Gods word.
chap 1 says plants on day3 and man on day6.
chap 2 doesnt contradict that ..plants were already created before man in verse5 &6..
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


the verse 8 says God planted the garden of Eden which is a particular area, not the entirety of the plants on earth as whole.

7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.



well to the rest of what you said i agree totally.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
#27
Hi Grace101,

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
gen 1:3

Light is the fist creative command by God.
What God created on the 4th day was things that became visible which gave forth the light.

Creation is a strange story, because it is written from the perspective of someone on the planet.
Each day of creation has an evening and a morning. Now as we know this effect, it is actually the
planet revolving with a source of light from one direction.
If you have light obscured by clouds, it can appear that the light is general over the whole scene.
Add on to this only God was witness to this event, so He is the story teller.

So I am not going to wonder too deeply as to why he put creation this way, but rather just observe
the contents. My observation is the creation story is simple enough to say God created everything,
it had an order and a structure, and each level was good and thought through.

What is unusual is putting two different perspectives together. This seems to cement the idea these
are allegories, which tell basic facts, but not all the complexities. Funnily enough, it has been theorised
our whole existence could be a computer projection, as the universe appears to be a mathematical
construct, rather than something mathematics in buried within. So I just wonder and praise Him, and
know when we meet Him it will be clearer, maybe, :)
I guess you've seen The Thirteenth Floor, and if you haven't,,,maybe you should!

As to Genesis....
Creation story one concentrates on the making of earth.
Creation story two concentrates on the making of people and how sin entered into our lives.

Let there be light is basically understood to mean....let it begin...
Let the dark be removed from the waters...
Let there be organization...
etc.

I don't have a problem with Genesis 1 and 2...I'm saying that it's not the best way to speak to an atheist.

Here's how I see it:

LET THERE BE LIGHT!.........

THE BIG BANG!

Funny how science can get to the big bang,,,,but not before it.
Also, scientists used to believe that there was NOTHING before that...
Now they say the universe has always existed...
That has created a problem....
How could there NOT be a beginning?
Our brains can't even understand that.
Back to square one for the scientific community....
And to think they used to believe in God hundreds of years ago....
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
#28
Thank you for responding.
About God didn't create light on the first day but on 4th day...i have to disagree.

Gen chap 1 says...
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


God did create light on day 1.
And the sun, moon and stars on day4.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


And about chap 1 and 2 regarding man first or plants first?
There is no contradiction in Gods word.
chap 1 says plants on day3 and man on day6.
chap 2 doesnt contradict that ..plants were already created before man in verse5 &6..
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


the verse 8 says God planted the garden of Eden which is a particular area, not the entirety of the plants on earth as whole.

7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.



well to the rest of what you said i agree totally.
Please see my post no. 27.
We were both typing at the same time !

I do disagree about the light....Not my idea,,,but biblical scholars have explained it well.

I think if you read my post, you'll understand better what I meant.
I just meant that I wouldn't use Genesis to convince an atheist.
 
Sep 17, 2018
19
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#29
Please see my post no. 27.
We were both typing at the same time !

I do disagree about the light....Not my idea,,,but biblical scholars have explained it well.

I think if you read my post, you'll understand better what I meant.
I just meant that I wouldn't use Genesis to convince an atheist.
Yes. There are different interpretations and views to this. I see it this way. Source of light before the creation of Sun, moon and stars which is mentioned in gen1 cannot be used by an atheist to say Bible is incorrect as... what they use to theorize the origin of universe by BIG BANG says that there was light even before the stars came into existence and even before the atoms were formed just after the big bang.
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-ba...-the-first-light-in-the-universe-8a985cb5f02b

So when mortal scientists comes with some theory which they modify and change hour..what about eternal GOD whose Word is unchangeable and the Truth.
Heaven and Earth may pass away but HIS Words shall never pass awa.
And to me I wont fit big bang anywhere in bible as universe cant be billion years old as they say..bible says its around 6000 years old and i believe it is so.
And yes I agree using Genesis to convince an atheist is not the first option. In my opinion, we cant convince anyone by our efforts or by worldly wisdom, unless the Holy Spirit does by the Word. For they have been blinded. Its the Father who chooses to save them ultimately.

Well thank you for your time and patience. Enjoyed chatting with you. God Bless!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
#30
Yes. There are different interpretations and views to this. I see it this way. Source of light before the creation of Sun, moon and stars which is mentioned in gen1 cannot be used by an atheist to say Bible is incorrect as... what they use to theorize the origin of universe by BIG BANG says that there was light even before the stars came into existence and even before the atoms were formed just after the big bang.
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-ba...-the-first-light-in-the-universe-8a985cb5f02b

So when mortal scientists comes with some theory which they modify and change hour..what about eternal GOD whose Word is unchangeable and the Truth.
Heaven and Earth may pass away but HIS Words shall never pass awa.
And to me I wont fit big bang anywhere in bible as universe cant be billion years old as they say..bible says its around 6000 years old and i believe it is so.
And yes I agree using Genesis to convince an atheist is not the first option. In my opinion, we cant convince anyone by our efforts or by worldly wisdom, unless the Holy Spirit does by the Word. For they have been blinded. Its the Father who chooses to save them ultimately.

Well thank you for your time and patience. Enjoyed chatting with you. God Bless!
Sure. This is a very interesting topic.
Did you know that it's a known fact that there was so much energy released at the big bang....which I believe is confirmed --- not sure ---- that it should have just collapsed on itself.
Why didn't it? This would be a good question to ask an atheist.
If by scientists understanding, it should have collapsed...why didn't it?
Perhaps because God didn't want it to?
Perhaps something was holding it up, as the entire universe is being held up?

There are good books that give methods to speak to atheists in these terms...
I can't use them - there's too much to know and to remember.

See you around...
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
10,668
3,875
113
#31
Big bang lol.

I dont know why they call it that. Why not 'gigantic explosion' or 'The making of the universe was really noisy'.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
#32
Big bang lol.

I dont know why they call it that. Why not 'gigantic explosion' or 'The making of the universe was really noisy'.
I am just an amateur physicist. But the whole expansion of the universe, where space is literally created
between things at ridiculous periods of time, yet over 4 billion years between us and the sun there has
been no expansion of creation of space.

To make their theory work things have to occur and then stop occurring for unknown reasons.
Just take the rotation of galaxies. The speed of rotation of the outer stars in a galaxy is the same as the inner
galaxy stars, which is not what we see in our solar system.

So they believe 95% of the universe is made up of dark matter, which is undetectable but must be there is our
understanding from earth works across this universe. The alternative is we are wrong in the gravity assumptions.
So we think we know a lot, by just looking at the light coming for the universe. This is why I do not rest on
moving scientific ideas, but rest on Jesus and His speaking into my heart, because we know the creator and He who
spoke it all into existence.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,834
10,123
113
#33
Big bang lol.

I dont know why they call it that. Why not 'gigantic explosion' or 'The making of the universe was really noisy'.
There would not have been any space for a sound wave to exist in ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,834
10,123
113
#34
I am just an amateur physicist. But the whole expansion of the universe, where space is literally created
between things at ridiculous periods of time, yet over 4 billion years between us and the sun there has
been no expansion of creation of space.
The theory is actually that space continues to expand
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,199
6,771
113
#37
I think the living word testifies, as do those of us who have received Him.

Taste and see that God is good!!!

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Romans 1:20 NASB