Is God Good?

[Dave-L]

there are logical and epistemological problems here.

the notion that evil would not exist if God is good is a presupposition with basis in a very human idea of what is good. this statement is man supposing to think God's thoughts for Him -- imagining that man knows a better way to run the universe than God does.

here the error is failing to acknowledge the goodness of God again. the statement is questioning the goodness of God under the assumption that the existence of evil is not good. yet God has 'constrained all under sin in order that He might have mercy on all' -- this doesn't make sin 'good' but it shows a reason for the existence of it; in order that God's mercy may be manifested. mercy is good. mercy doesn't exist when there is no need for mercy. is then the existence of evil, itself evil?

a second error is framing these things within temporal experience. God's existence is not contained in time, but the existence of evil is within the framework of experiential timelike observation. God speaks of what is not as though it is, and calls into existence things which aren't - the vocabulary of prophecy is the fullness of completion of things not yet begun: it is an observational standpoint outside of the timelike eventspace sequence, knowing the end from before the beginning, and seeing them simultaneously -- and this is how God is able to observe, though man in finitude of knowledge ((hence understanding)) presently cannot.
but in the fullness of time all evil will be judged, and every enemy of God, who is good, will be brought under His feet. in the final analysis, evil is temporary. at the end of things, it will not persist - so its existence is only an interim vapor. in that sense, for man to judge God over what is essentially the fruit of the freedom of man to reject the goodness of God is like calling a cake a bad cake before it has baked. of course it isn't edible now, it needs time in the oven.



but the foremost problem is foregoing this:

axiom 1: God is good
corollary 1: everything God does is good
corollary 2: God does no evil

approach the supposed 'problem' with this algebra. you will find the singular and inevitable conclusion that man is vain, foolish, dim, and speaks without knowledge.

So you are the first in history to set the greatest theologians and philosophers straight? It's an honor.

 

[Dino246]

Do tell. What am I missing?

Your response to Dave-L's comment, "Technically, we are the author of sin. God is the cause." was, "Technically? Absolutely! Show me where Scripture states God causes sin?'

You have considered only two possible sources, when there is a third; that is the false dichotomy, and the information that makes it false is found in Genesis 3.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God allowing a lying spirit to speak to the king doesn't mean He created evil. He set a final judgement on a rebellious kings head who had been given many chances to repent. That doesn't mean God is the creator of evil, He is not.

This section of Scripture has been explained to Dave-L in another thread. Dave-L refuses to read what has been explained to him in order that he may come to understanding of Scripture.

If we read 1 Kings 22, we read that Ahab wanted Jehoshaphat (king of Judah) to go with him to Ramothgilead and take it back from the king of Syria (Benhadad). Benhadad had made covenant with Ahab to return all the land taken by his (Benhadad's) father (1 Kings 20:34).

Jehoshaphat wanted to inquire of the Lord whether they should go or not (vs 5). So Ahab sent for his prophets and all 400 of his prophets told him to go (vs 6).

Jehoshaphat pushed further and Ahab told Jehoshaphat about one more prophet (Micaiah), but Ahab didn't like Micaiah because Micaiah did not tell Ahab what Ahab wanted to hear.

In 1 Kings 22:19-23, we read that Micaiah had a vision and in this vision it is explained that the prophets of Ahab had lied to him.

What Micaiah did was expose the lies of the false prophets to Ahab. @Dave-L does not comprehend Scripture well enough to understand that God was telling Ahab that his prophets were lying to him.

Micaiah's prophecy was: And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace (vs 17).

Micaiah also told Ahab: If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me (vs 28).

Ahab's false prophets told him Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king (vs 6).


We know that Micaiah's prophecy was the true word of God and we know that Ahab's prophets were false prophets because what they prophesied did not come to pass (Deut 18:22).

We also know that God warned Ahab that his prophets were lying to him. But Ahab did not listen to God and went up anyway.

When we fully understand the verses in 1 Kings 22:19-23, we see that God did not send a lying spirit. What we see is that God warned Ahab that his prophets were lying to him. Ahab did not listen to the true prophecy:

that Israel would be without a king (vs 17), ​

that his prophets were lying to him (vss 19-23), and ​

that God had not stated Ahab would return in peace (vs 28).​

If you want to go through the whole record, you can read here, here, here.

 

[John146]

Your response to Dave-L's comment, "Technically, we are the author of sin. God is the cause." was, "Technically? Absolutely! Show me where Scripture states God causes sin?'

You have considered only two possible sources, when there is a third; that is the false dichotomy, and the information that makes it false is found in Genesis 3.

Brother, you misunderstood me. Actually, Satan is the first to sin. The word author should not be used.

 

[Whispered]

Everyone may have a different answer for this and that is fine. In the Bible we read about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This and the tree of life. I wonder: is good and evil balanced? Is there as much good as there is evil in this world? In the law of thermodynamics we have equilibrium (a state in which opposing forces or influences are balanced). I talk about river rocks and how the water forms them in a way that they are very easy to balance. So we know there is a lot of balance in the universe, cosmos or world we live in. We ask why there is so much suffering. I know people that love to play the victim card. Yet if there is just as much pleasure as there is pain. If here is just as much good as there is evil - then everything in life and in the universe balances itself out and cancels itself out. In quantum physics everything would cancel itself out. So there has to be a million and one positive particles and a million negative in order for us to exist. It there was more negative then positive then I would think this would cancel everything out so that nothing could exist. Although you cannot have nothing without something to compare it to.

Then of course we do hear that God is abundantly above and beyond all that we could ever ask or think. If there were as much good somewhere as there is evil, pain, misery and suffering in this world, I would think that would be substantial. We also hear that we need to die to self so we can live for God. I am not sure how that plays into all of this.

With regard to Adam and Eve, if we define what is good and what is evil, I think it is easy to see that they didn't really make an informed choice to eat of the tree God planted and then set off limits. Further, we read that once they did consume this fruit, it was by Adam that sin entered the world, and when God saw they had eaten of that fruit He said that the man and woman had become like Him! Knowing good and evil.

Further, if we read the Book of Isaiah chapter 45 we learn that God tells us He is both the evil and the good. The darkness and the light. He brings peace, and He brings calamity, He the Lord does all these things.

Therefore I think I will rely on God having answered your question in full in His own word.

 

[Whispered]

I heard you the first time. God did not create evil. God has "allowed" evil to exist and given us a choice. But God did not create evil, that is un-Biblical.

Isaiah 45 says different. There can be no thing that exists that is created by any other than God. As He tells us.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

 

[Whispered]

Brother, you misunderstood me. Actually, Satan is the first to sin. The word author should not be used.

Satan was created by Omniscient Father God. And let to live after the war in Heaven and is let to visit Heaven and confer with Father God after Satan fell. Odd, isn't it.

Sin is violating God's law. God created His law and God is therefore the author of non-compliance to His law. Because Sin by God's will and law, damns the unrepentant. Those who do not repent of their sins.

Why do we believe in God and yet pick and choose what God has done as the sole, soul, creator of all that is and of and from himself?
God is Sovereign and Supreme.
The Supremacy of Christ ~ Colossians chapter 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

 

[Whispered]

Technically? Absolutely! Show me where Scripture states God causes sin? For He cannot tempt man in this manner.

Isaiah 45:7
Colossians 1

 

[John146]

Sin is violating God's law. God created His law and God is therefore the author of non-compliance to His law. Because Sin by God's will and law, damns the unrepentant. Those who do not repent of their sins.

Not if you believe that God gave man free will to choose.

 

[John146]

Isaiah 45:7
Colossians 1

I’ve already posted showing evil is not necessarily sin. Evil is destruction.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Isaiah 45 says different. There can be no thing that exists that is created by any other than God. As He tells us.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Yes ... in Isaiah 45:7, God reveals to us that He alone is God. There is only One God. There are not two gods ... one that is good and one that is evil.

God taking responsibility for all of His creation is not equal to God being evil.

Read the verses just before vs 7:

Isaiah 45:5-6 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.


Now read vs 7:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God is not claiming He is evil. God is the Creator of everything, which includes the evil one. The evil one is a created being and chose to turn from God. God allowed the evil one to turn.


Now read vs 8:

Isaiah 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Here is God's heart and desire ... that righteousness would pour down from heaven and that salvation and righteousness would spring up together in the earth.


Isaiah 45:

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else

...


22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I’ve already posted showing evil is not necessarily sin. Evil is destruction.

I believe that God is telling us in Isaiah 45:7 that He is the Creator of everything ... and that includes the evil one. And we know that the evil one was not evil when first created ... but rather was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee (Ez 28:14).

God knowing beforehand that the anointed cherub would lift up his heart and corrupt his wisdom (Ez 28:17) and going ahead with His Creation (including planning the redemption of mankind) is not the same as God "causing sin".

 

[posthuman]

So you are the first in history to set the greatest theologians and philosophers straight? It's an honor.

Not the first. And was even Paul the first to say God is good, and not the author of evil? What I said, I derived from what is written. I don't know who this Clark fellow is, but if he contradicts scripture, he's not 'the greatest theologian' and not much of a philosopher.

There is no 'problem of evil'
The problem is why does good exist, seeing that man isn't?
The answer is that God is, and He is good.

 

[Blik]

If God isn't good and will be victorious over evil we are in serious trouble that we can do absolutely nothing about. God created us and our world and there is a fight going on with evil that this virus is only the start of.

When evil came into the world God immediately made a plan for our salvation for that evil meant death for us. That should prove beyond a doubt that God is good, but I haven't done the physical death yet to prove Him. Christ did this, and there is reports that many others have lived through physical death. Matthews said that Moses and many others walked the streets of Jerusalem, they woke from sleep, when Christ died.

 

[kaylagrl]

Satan is merely calamity?

No thats not what I said.

 

[pottersclay]

God uses evil to strengthen us.
God uses evil to discipline us.
God uses evil to destroy.

Evil left to itself is chaos. God controls evil and sets the boundaries. In a world of darkness God said let there be light a bit sooner than the creation of the sun.

 

[pottersclay]

Evil and sin are not always the same thing.

 

[JohnR7]

Further, if we read the Book of Isaiah chapter 45 we learn that God tells us He is both the evil and the good. The darkness and the light. He brings peace, and He brings calamity, He the Lord does all these things.

Peace and calamity gives us context. The word Calamity or Evil is make up of two letters: The first represents intellect and the second represents our eyes and what we see. The EYE in Hebrew is the letter Y. We have an optic nerve that connects the two eyes together as one to the intellect. So that is what we are given to work with here in this verse. The rule of first use is we first see this word in Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

 

[Dave-L]

Not the first. And was even Paul the first to say God is good, and not the author of evil? What I said, I derived from what is written. I don't know who this Clark fellow is, but if he contradicts scripture, he's not 'the greatest theologian' and not much of a philosopher.

There is no 'problem of evil'
The problem is why does good exist, seeing that man isn't?
The answer is that God is, and He is good.

Since evil exists, how can God as the creator of everything be good? Or why doesn't he stop it if he is all-powerful? In other words. Hint: free will does not solve it. Gordon Clark does.

 

[Dave-L]

This section of Scripture has been explained to Dave-L in another thread. Dave-L refuses to read what has been explained to him in order that he may come to understanding of Scripture.

If we read 1 Kings 22, we read that Ahab wanted Jehoshaphat (king of Judah) to go with him to Ramothgilead and take it back from the king of Syria (Benhadad). Benhadad had made covenant with Ahab to return all the land taken by his (Benhadad's) father (1 Kings 20:34).

Jehoshaphat wanted to inquire of the Lord whether they should go or not (vs 5). So Ahab sent for his prophets and all 400 of his prophets told him to go (vs 6).

Jehoshaphat pushed further and Ahab told Jehoshaphat about one more prophet (Micaiah), but Ahab didn't like Micaiah because Micaiah did not tell Ahab what Ahab wanted to hear.

In 1 Kings 22:19-23, we read that Micaiah had a vision and in this vision it is explained that the prophets of Ahab had lied to him.

What Micaiah did was expose the lies of the false prophets to Ahab. @Dave-L does not comprehend Scripture well enough to understand that God was telling Ahab that his prophets were lying to him.

Micaiah's prophecy was: And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace (vs 17).

Micaiah also told Ahab: If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me (vs 28).

Ahab's false prophets told him Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king (vs 6).


We know that Micaiah's prophecy was the true word of God and we know that Ahab's prophets were false prophets because what they prophesied did not come to pass (Deut 18:22).

We also know that God warned Ahab that his prophets were lying to him. But Ahab did not listen to God and went up anyway.

When we fully understand the verses in 1 Kings 22:19-23, we see that God did not send a lying spirit. What we see is that God warned Ahab that his prophets were lying to him. Ahab did not listen to the true prophecy:

that Israel would be without a king (vs 17), ​

that his prophets were lying to him (vss 19-23), and ​

that God had not stated Ahab would return in peace (vs 28).​

If you want to go through the whole record, you can read here, here, here.

It's your spin. Not what scripture means.

“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)