Is God that cruel?

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CherieR

CherieR

Senior Member
#161
May 6, 2017
2,265
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#161
Lillywolf said:
Why do you think God allowed Lucifer to live after casting him and 1/3 of his fellow follower angels out of Heaven after they lost the war?
Tormenting yourself thinking of fire and brimstone and suffering for eternity is not finding the peace of Christ as you should do. There is a history to those scriptures. Remember, the New Testament is a continuation of the old. The Messiah prophecy fulfilled. Where Jesus figured prominently in the Old Testament, in the New he is arrived to fulfill Father's mission.
There is no fire and brimstone Hell in the Old Testament. Jesus was a Jew. As God, "Emmanuel=God with us", Jesus knew the scriptures. He even taught in the temple. He would not teach of that which was not The Word's words. And he did not.
The article to follow is rather lengthy. However, if you take time, and not in one sitting understandably, you will know far more than you are led to believe now. God's word stands eternal. He is not a man that he should lie.

Unity in false doctrine is not the unity of the Ekklesia Christ envisioned. There are over 50 thousand denominations on earth now and that number grows every year. A divided body in Christ is the Devils work. Not God's.

(From The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment by Thomas B. Thayer, 1855)​
​
The word hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol,which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times.​
By examination of the Hebrew Scriptures it will be found that its radical or primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead.​
It is plain that it has here no reference to a place of endless torment after death.​
​
It is plain, then, from these citations, that the word Sheol, "hell," makes nothing for the doctrine of future unending punishment as a part of the Law penalties. It is never used by Moses or the Prophets in the sense of a place of torment after death; and in no way conflicts with the statement already proved, that the Law of Moses deals wholly in temporal rewards and punishments.​
This position, also, I wish to fortify by the testimony of Orthodox critics, men of learning and candor [who were currently professors of history and theology at Oxford when Thayer wrote]. They know, and therefore they speak.​
  1. CHAPMAN. [Mark Chapman, Oxford theologian and historian] "Sheol, in itself considered, has no connection with future punishment." Cited by Balfour, First Inquiry.


  2. DR. ALLEN says: "The term sheol does not seem to mean, with certainty, anything more than the state of the dead in their deep abode."


  3. DR. CAMPBELL. "Sheol signifies the state of the dead without regard to their happiness or misery."


  4. DR. WHITBY. "Sheol throughout the Old Testament signifies not the place of punishment, or of the souls of bad men only, but the grave only, or the place of death."


  5. DR. MUENSCHER. [A distinguished author of Dogmatic History] "The souls or shades of the dead wander in sheol, the realm or kingdom of death, an abode deep under the earth. Thither go all men, without distinction, and hope for no return. There ceases all pain and anguish; there reigns an unbroken silence; there all is powerless and still; and even the praise of God is heard no more."


  6. VON COELLN. "Sheol itself is described as the house appointed for all living, which receives into its bosom all mankind, without distinction of rank, wealth, or moral character. It is only in the mode of death, and not in the condition after death, that the good are distinguished above the evil. The just, for instance, die in peace, and are gently borne away before the evil comes; while a bitter death breaks the wicked like as a tree."
[Thayer continues] These witnesses all testify that sheol, or hell, in the Old Testament, has no reference whatever to this doctrine; that it signifies simply the state of the dead, the invisible world, without regard to their goodness or badness, their happiness or misery. The Old Testament doctrine of hell, therefore, is not the doctrine of endless punishment. It is not revealed in the Law of Moses. It is not revealed in the Old Testament. To such result has our inquiry led us; and now what shall we say of it?​

Hell Is Not in the New Testament (Continues)
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You seem to believe that hell does not exist. I do believe it exists but I am unsure of what it is like for different people who reject Christ. I grew up in a church that taught the fire and brimstone view of hell. There are different reasons why I have questioned that view. One reason may have to do with because some of my loved ones are not Christian. I have questioned how can I be happy in heaven if someone I love is in hell in torment. Other reasons why I have questioned the literal fire view of hell has to do with justice. It does not make sense to me for all non-believers to receive the same punishment( to burn in fires of hell) regardless of age and the severity of their sins. What makes more sense to me is that non-believers are judged according to their works and therefore hell would have different degrees or levels of punishment. Throughout time people have done horrible things on the earth. There have been those who murder, abuse, molest and mutilate others and do not repent or feel sorry. God is the one who brings true justice. Everyone will have to give an account before God. Those who are in Christ however, have an advocate before God.
 
L

Lillywolf

Well-known member
#164
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
543
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#164
Nekka said:
I was raised in a christian church..but as child i never question anything because i was thought that my religion is the right one, the right way. But as i grow up some things I noticed have no logic, parts of the Bible that contradict each other....so I wasn't so sure of it anymore. And i start to asking questions. And no one from the church could give me a solid answer. And yes..i started to search for answers in other cultures..in gnosticism. But I have the impression that you don't know much about it, so please measure your words before you speak. Gnosis doesn't deny the Bible, on the contrary, it even refers to many passages in the Bible. Let me give an example, i was talking about reincarnation, so here are some passages to prove it: Matthew 11:14-15 "And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.Whoever has ears, let them hear." Matthew 17:11,12,13, " Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."
I didn't "sneak" here to try to convert somebody, or what else you think about me...I was hoping that i could find some good answers and opinion about my believes from the "children of God" as you call yourself...But most of you answered very badly and rude as if I tried to attack you in some way. Everybody has free will as you all said. So don't judge me for what i believe in and call it paganism.
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There are those in the OT that God took while they were alive into Heaven. Elijah and Enoch, for instance. This doesn't mean they were later reincarnated. Jesus reference to Elijah wasn't to that of a man reincarnated. It was to say the man Elijah had already come in the flesh and he was not recognized as a prophet of God.He suffered instead. Just as Jesus did.

You are right in that the word Gnosis will in some people cause confusion and upset. Gnosis simply means knowledge. As for Gnostic gospels if you insist on speaking of those here you'll not be received well at all and you do not need to be abused more than has already occurred. There are Gnostic Christian websites, and there are sites that welcome open discussion of the topic. My advice is to seek there for your own peace of mind.
As to the death of the flesh the Bible does not speak of reincarnation at all. There are search engines you can use to find Bible verses by subject or topic. Open Bible is one such site. I searched, "Reincarnation" and the search pulled up all scriptures that refer to the finality of death instead. This is a search engine that I used to look for "Bible scripture search sites". There are quite a few links for you to consider if you wish.

This site is one: Search: "Reincarnation" Job 14:10-12
But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


God bless and protect you. Amen.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#165
Mar 13, 2014
41,302
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69
Tennessee
#165
CherieR said:
You seem to believe that hell does not exist. I do believe it exists but I am unsure of what it is like for different people who reject Christ. I grew up in a church that taught the fire and brimstone view of hell. There are different reasons why I have questioned that view. One reason may have to do with because some of my loved ones are not Christian. I have questioned how can I be happy in heaven if someone I love is in hell in torment. Other reasons why I have questioned the literal fire view of hell has to do with justice. It does not make sense to me for all non-believers to receive the same punishment( to burn in fires of hell) regardless of age and the severity of their sins. What makes more sense to me is that non-believers are judged according to their works and therefore hell would have different degrees or levels of punishment. Throughout time people have done horrible things on the earth. There have been those who murder, abuse, molest and mutilate others and do not repent or feel sorry. God is the one who brings true justice. Everyone will have to give an account before God. Those who are in Christ however, have an advocate before God.
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You cannot possibly be happy in heaven knowing that a love one is separated from God for eternity in a place called hell. I don't believe that in scripture it specifically states that the ones in hell will actually burn in fire in excruciating pain for eternity only that flames will be involved for a period of time to burn the lost souls up. It says in the bible that there will be no more tears but if I am aware of even one person that is in hell there will indeed be tears, especially so if this is a person that I knew and loved. I don't believe that God is simply going to blot our memories of those that we love and are in hell and pretend that they don't exist. If so, this would be a gross act of lying and that is out of God's character to lie. If someone I know and love is in hell then God can put in on my account and I will pay the price.
 
L

Lillywolf

Well-known member
#167
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
543
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#167
CherieR said:
You seem to believe that hell does not exist. I do believe it exists but I am unsure of what it is like for different people who reject Christ. I grew up in a church that taught the fire and brimstone view of hell. There are different reasons why I have questioned that view. One reason may have to do with because some of my loved ones are not Christian. I have questioned how can I be happy in heaven if someone I love is in hell in torment. Other reasons why I have questioned the literal fire view of hell has to do with justice. It does not make sense to me for all non-believers to receive the same punishment( to burn in fires of hell) regardless of age and the severity of their sins. What makes more sense to me is that non-believers are judged according to their works and therefore hell would have different degrees or levels of punishment. Throughout time people have done horrible things on the earth. There have been those who murder, abuse, molest and mutilate others and do not repent or feel sorry. God is the one who brings true justice. Everyone will have to give an account before God. Those who are in Christ however, have an advocate before God.
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I cherish the Bible. I also seek the truth of Christ at all times. There is a saying, the sooner someone begins to pursue Apologetics the sooner they'll realize they will die unsatisfied.
Because the more one learns the more hungry they become to know more. The Bible has a history. Over forty authors engaged over a period of some 2000 years, from three continents, and writing in three different languages, Hebrew, Chaldean and Greek, are responsible for what we ultimately call the canon of scripture today.
If you choose you can research that simple series of keywords and find sources to inform further my statement. If you do you'll likely be on the same road many of us are. Seeking to learn more about the unique miracle that is the Bible and coming to realize the road to the truth and learning those answers has no foreseeable end but our own death. Then, we shall surely know it all.

Blessings.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#169
#169
I think it is a massive stretch to say God is cruel.
God created all the world for us to enjoy and cultivate. He walked directly hand in hand with us and showed us what is right and we rebelled. Imediately after saving our lives from the first distruction we rebelled. He gave us prophet after prophet yet we rebelled. He sent his own son who we beat brutally and gruesomely murdered, yet his patients and grace continues. We deserve nothing better than hell. We rebelled, murder, worship material, lie, cheat, steal, and we call ourselves good. Just look at us, we will debate as to whether or not a mother should murder her own child. We destroy everything we touch including our bodies and minds. The pornography industry testifies against our so called goodness.
No God is merciful beyond measure. I would have destroyed it all a long time ago. I can not understand why God endurs us thus far.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#170
#170
Lillywolf said:
That video is horribly unfitting and noise pollution.
As you believe so shall you live.
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Best to pay mind to your own business for this business is more than you can handle.

Your words mean nothing to me.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#171
#171
And as far as the thread title, it's not people's business, best stay out of it.
 
L

Lillywolf

Well-known member
#172
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
543
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#172
Locoponydirtman said:
I think it is a massive stretch to say God is cruel.
God created all the world for us to enjoy and cultivate. He walked directly hand in hand with us and showed us what is right and we rebelled. Imediately after saving our lives from the first distruction we rebelled. He gave us prophet after prophet yet we rebelled. He sent his own son who we beat brutally and gruesomely murdered, yet his patients and grace continues. We deserve nothing better than hell. We rebelled, murder, worship material, lie, cheat, steal, and we call ourselves good. Just look at us, we will debate as to whether or not a mother should murder her own child. We destroy everything we touch including our bodies and minds. The pornography industry testifies against our so called goodness.
No God is merciful beyond measure. I would have destroyed it all a long time ago. I can not understand why God endurs us thus far.
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God did destroy it all a long time ago. He destroyed all of Sodom and Gomorrah save for one family deemed righteous. He destroyed the first born of every Egyptian house after hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he would be unable to let his people Go. And , just to list a few, he destroyed the entire population of the world by drowning, save for numbers of animals and Noah's family deemed righteous so as to populate the world again with sinful mortals. Noah was a drunkard. After the deluge. God sent in 2nd Kings 2 two bears to maul more than 40 children. God's laws prescribed death for certain sins, transgressions, deemed abomination. Adultery, homosexuality.
God is cruel. He is also kind. Remember though, God is the darkness and the light. God is all things.


By the way, Diogenes' Chicken....
You featherless biped you. ;) :giggle:(y)
 
L

Lillywolf

Well-known member
#173
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
543
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#173
LPT said:
Best to pay mind to your own business for this business is more than you can handle.

Your words mean nothing to me.
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Yeah, I can read that. :)
Your video was vulgar. If that's your business you'll be bankrupt soon enough.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#175
#175
Lillywolf said:
Yeah, I can read that. :)
Your video was vulgar. If that's your business you'll be bankrupt soon enough.
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Because you don't understand, like many your eyes have no sight and your ears have no sound, broad viper
 
L

LPT

Guest
#178
#178
Need not to go any farther then pages in the bible forum if you want to see cruelty at its finest.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#179
Dec 28, 2016
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#179
RickyZ said:
And a lot of believers think God hates them
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Perhaps, and/or not pleased with them.

That said, I'd make certain it isn't Holy Spirit conviction of being in a lost state.

Some are deceived that they are converted, and the go to when this happens is to blame Satan.
 
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