Is it a sin to drink alcohol

posthuman · Mar 27, 2020

maybe they were getting drunk from too much sparkling water

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

I think you do not understand the context to ask such a question.

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

Possible to do actually, for too much water will also drain the system of vitamins, nutrients, and literally 'drown' the system, and affect the thinking, and a woman, for a radio contest died from drinking too much water. - http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/

presidente · Mar 28, 2020

A dodge maybe. Not being given to much wine implies a little is okay.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Mar 28, 2020

posthuman said:

I wonder how many of these Pharisees on here pointing the accusing finger at those on here who occasionally drink alcohol while looking down their Pharisaical noses have zero problems with a fellow member popping a couple Valiums or Xanax's to calm their nerves?

They'd use the cop out quote of they got them from a prescription written by a doctor. Yet, I know of quite a few doctors...see quacks...who lost their licenses because they were a little to liberal with the pen. Just because they have a prescription does not mean its legit.

But Pharisee away...

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Mar 28, 2020

Wine has been symbolic for the Spirit in the Christ's parables. I don't think wine would be prohibited if He used that which is 'devil's juice'.

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

With the Holy Ghost, comes "peace", and no need for pharmakeia.

Psa_127:2 It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.

Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Yes, 'wine' the pure juice of the grape, the fruit of the vine is a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

The other kind of 'wine' (alcoholic), is associated with unclean and defiling spirits.

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

When people desire to satisfy their lust for alcohol, their belly is their 'god', and they always seem to point to bad examples in scriptures, to attempt to justify their sin. once such case, is the case of Noah:

What about Noah?

Genesis 9:20 KJB - And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

Genesis 9:21 KJB - And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Some will point to the events in the life of Noah as an example of drinking alcoholic wine, and cite him for 'casual (moderate) drinking of alcohol'.

They might as well cite Nabal (1 Sam. 25:36), that "son of Belial" (1 Sam. 25:17) for *wonderful* conduct (sarcasm). Simply pointing to examples in the bible, where sinfulness abounds, or ignorance or surprise that leads to embarrassment, things happen to justify ones own sins and lusts and carnality, why bother? Simply pointing to a bad or embarrassing example is no justification for more bad examples. However, let us take a look at the events in Noah and see what happened.

Noah was given a name which meant 'rest':

Genesis 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Out of all the wickedness before the flood, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord:

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

God said of Noah that he was "a just man and perfect in his generations" and that he "walked with God":

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

The Holy Ghost by Paul, said of Noah that he was one of "faith" and an "heir of righteousness which is by faith":

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

The Holy Ghost by Peter, said of Noah, that he was "saved" and he was used by Jesus, through the Holy Ghost to preach to the sinners (those in the 'prison', bondage, the slavery of sin) in his own day:

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

God places Noah in the same class of righteousness and faithfulness as Daniel and job:

Eze_14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze_14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

The Holy Ghost by Peter, said that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" and was not one of the "ungodly" which perished, but "suffer[ed] for righteousness' sake" and not "Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing" when the ungodly were around him while the Ark was being built, as they mocked, "where is the promise of his coming (Genesis 3:15)" (2 Pet. 3:4):

1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Noah was commanded by God to take all the food that is eaten upon the ark:

Gen 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

This was the fruit trees and green herb:

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

This would include the grape vine, so that Noah could later "plant a vineyard" (Gen. 9:20).

The flood was global and covered all the earth destroying all air breathing land animals and man outside of the ark:

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

Let us go to the Biblical Flood ...:

As for the size of the Flood it was completely Global [as in not local, not 'ethnocentric', but rather was covering the whole surface of the entire earth below the heavens even as high as 15 cubits above the "then" highest mountains].

The Bible says that the whole earth (world, not land) was completely covered and water stood 15 cubits above the tallest mountains:

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. (Genesis 7:20)

[1] First we see that the waters "prevail[ed]". "...the waters prevailed..." [Genesis 7:18,19,20,24] From the Hebrew [Tr.]: "gabar" meaning to "have strength over", "over-powering", etc. The waters "prevail[ed]" so much so, that "fifteen cubits upward" above the very "mountains were covered" and overcame, so that "all the high hills", being "under the whole heaven, were covered".

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered. (Genesis 7:19)

[2] Secondly we read that all men ["all flesh" and "every man", vs 21], from "under the whole heaven" and all land animals and birds ["fowls also of the air" vs 3 and "fowl(s)" vs 8,14,21 and "fowl of heaven" vs 23], wherein is the breath of life, outside of the Ark were destroyed:

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Genesis 6:13)

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die. (Genesis 6:17)

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: (Genesis 7:21)

And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Genesis 9:11)

And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15)

Consider carefully that the text is from the viewpoint of GOD ["before ME" Genesis 6:13, 7:1], and that which is "under the whole heaven", and not some localized, ethnocentric event. It would be meaningless to have those "fowls" which could fly enter into the Ark, the Clean Pairs [of Sevens] an the Unclean Pairs [by Twos], should the Flood not be indeed entirely global. It is easily demonstrated that Birds can fly away from and can escape a local flood, especially since the Flood did not cover all the mountains in a single day. In fact, animals know of disaster many hours and sometimes even days in advance of men, and would have fled before it even happened, but instead we see them miraculously brought to the Ark by God, in Pairs! Mankind also who were left outside of the Ark, too could just as easily flee to another location through various means should the flood be merely local. The Antediluvians were no fools [though such, not to enter the Ark] to stand around while waters arose, for these men were of giant intellect, knowing city building [Genesis 4:17], metalurgy [Genesis 4:22], fine craft like musical instruments, arts [Genesis 4:21], tent making [Genesis 4:20], etc. [and we can even go to places in the world where such ancient remains are found of said civilization, massive stones, superb craftsmanship, surgery, things of exquisite and even unrepeatable design, more on this later]

[3] Thirdly, the Covenant that God makes with Noah and "all flesh" is universal [entirely global] in scope. Look again at the Promise and Covenant made by God:

And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Genesis 9:11)

And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15)

The Promise and Covenant of God then made would be meaningless, as would be the sign ["[rain]bow" Genesis 9:13] given to "all flesh". If the Flood only destroyed a local [ethnocentric] locale then the Promise is worthless Biblically, for endless floods and disasters have since come upon the earth and wiped out many peoples, and beasts. Just look at the recent destruction in Japan, and further back, New Orleans, etc.

I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. (Genesis 9:13)

However, God's promise stand's firm, in that never again would a Flood of water cover the whole earth, even though in the very end times to come, "islands" will flee away at the coming destruction.

[4] Fourthly, God made all men, and not just those in “Noah's valley” [ethnocentric locale]:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)

And so, God was angry with all mortals ["all flesh"] upon the Earth:

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. (Genesis 6:11)

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (Genesis 6:12)

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

[5] Fifthly, God had ALL the fountains of the great abyss break up, not just some localized [ethnocentric] fountains, nor few fountains, but ALL:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Genesis 7:11)

The Bible declares that the great abyss is below the entire surface of the earth, and not merely localized to “Noah's valley” [ethnocentric locale]:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:2)

[6] Sixthly, the Flood lasted much longer than 40 days and 40 nights [in which it rained], for it lasted roughly a little over a year [370], counting the entirety of time:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Genesis 7:11)

And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:12)

And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first [month], the first [day] of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. (Genesis 8:13)

And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. (Genesis 8:14)

The Rain, from the floodgates of the sky, was not the only part of the Deluge, but also the vast amounts and endless volumes of water which burst forth from beneath the earth in the breaking up of the great abyss:

The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; (Genesis 8:2)

The remainder of scripture also gives:

Job says:

Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood: (Job 22:16) [speaking of all of the wicked men and the way in which they had trodden, verse 15]

Isaiah declares a global flood:

For this [is as] the waters of Noah unto me: for [as] I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. (Isaiah 54:9)

Peter makes it quite clear that God destroyed them all and took them all away (buried in water, a figure of complete immersion of baptism, then after to be covered in fire), only 8 souls of mankind being saved [Noah "only" and his family and their wives Genesis 7:23]:

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:20)

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21)

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2 Peter 2:5)

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (2 Peter 3:3)

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (2 Peter 3:5)

Whereby the world that then was, being, overflowed with water, perished: (2 Peter 3:6)

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7)

Several words used by Peter in the Greek for this flood are, "Kosmos", universe, totality of something [like of the earth/planet], and "kataklyzō", 1) to overwhelm with water, to submerge, deluge [like Baptism, complete total immersion/submersion] [it is also where we get the word cataclysm] and Peter directly equates that Global judgment by water to the one to come by fire - total global judgment.

[7] A seventh serious matter, would be to localize the Flood to an ethnocentric locale would then cripple the Final Judgment of scripture to an ethnocentric locale, as Peter equates them together, one the forerunner of the other [a world baptised in Water, then also Fire, like as we]. Scripture is more than clear on the global fires to come [can be cited if necessary].

[8] Eighth, in even that Jesus Himself says that they were all destroyed in the flood, and relates the flood to the final judgment by fire [which will cover the whole Earth, Revelation 20, etc]:

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:37)

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (Matthew 24:38)

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:39)

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. (Luke 17:26)

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:27)

All of the wicked humans were destroyed by the Flood and only 8 humans were spared - yet Satan lived through the flood and continued to entice...

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

Other mentions of the great flood:

Thou coveredst it with the deep as [with] a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. (Psalms 104:6)

Others, seeking to make excuses, cite other passages, but do not consider their context, and so dealing with 'roaring lions' and 'here be dragons'...

Psalms 104. Deals with the totality of the waters from their Creation [Psalms 104:5-6a], to their covering the Earth [Psalms 104:6b-8], to no more again covering the whole earth by God's covenant [Psalms 104:9-13, etc].

Job 38. Speaking about the omnipotence of God declaring that He controls and upholds all things and sets their bounds, whether they be held or released for His purposes. The time of Job is after the Global Flood and before Abraham. Job fully believed in the Globality of the Flood, see noted passages above or [Job 22:15-16, 26:5,12; etc].

Proverbs 8. Again as Job, signifying God's Omnipotence and His controlling and upholding all things by His Power, He setting their bounds, whether they be held or released for His Purposes. They should not "pass HIS commandment", nor can they do otherwise than to respond to HIS will, as was done in the Global Flood.

These are not the only reasons, but just a few of the Major ones, and a list of over 100 [scripturally and scientifically] could be cited, as has been done by others. No matter what one currently believes [atheist or Christian, etc], if they are true to the scriptures in what they plainly teach and say [whether or not you actually believe it], they cannot objectively come to any other conclusions based upon its own consistent and internal evidence that the Noachian Flood was indeed Global and only 4,500 years ago [est].

There is no room for a "compromised" position, no room to be sitting on the fence.

Additionally [The Global Flood totally wipes out the evolutionary and long age model. How so? Think about it. What does it mean for the evolutionary timescales if all life [basically] had to start from square one only 4,500 years ago. It cannot be both ways. Compromise is impossible.]

After Noah got out of the Ark (after a year (est.) in the Ark), he sacrificed unto God and God made an eternal covenant with him, which is the continuation of Genesis 3:15, see Genesis 9:1-17 KJB.

Then we read, and interesting event in the life of righteous Noah:

Genesis 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

Genesis 9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

Genesis 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Genesis 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Genesis 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Genesis 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Genesis 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Genesis 9:28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.

Genesis 9:29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

We see that Noah, was not a husbandmen yet, and was unlearned, but was in a new situation, and so, "began to be an husbandman" (Gen. 9:20).

There is no evidence that Noah was such before, but just began to be such, and therefore would have not have all the knowledge of grapes that were crushed and left outside, or even inside for very long, in the new conditions that the earth was under, the several curses.

So, in his new experience, "he planted a vineyard".

We can see that the process of time takes place between Genesis 9:20, and Genesis 9:21, since 'grapes' which come from the 'vine', do not ferment immediately, but will begin to depending upon the surrounding conditions (such as temp.) and the container that they are in.

Noah was not in a valley, but high up in a mountainous area of the Ararat (Gen. 8:4) for the Ark landed, somewhere near "the tops of the mountains" (Gen. 8:5), and in a short time the ground was dry from the wind, and higher elevation. This would affect the conditions, such as higher elevation, closer to the sun, less atmosphere, no large trees for shade, and only the Ark and a "tent" (Gen. 9:21) for living quarters, and storage, etc.

God had "blessed" Noah (Gen. 9:1).

However, there was this incident in which Noah drank of the fruit of the vine, after it had enough time to ferment. The water outside of the Ark would be brackish, and salty and nigh undrinkable, and so they had to rely on what they had available, or for the rains in their season in the seedtime and harvest (Gen. 8:22).

The text does not say that Noah knew that the fruit of the vine "wine" had become fermented and purposefully got drunk through the fermented fruit. It just says that "Noah drank of the wine", which is simply the juice of the grape, then having become fermented through time and condition and continually partaking of it as it slowly fermented, like a frog in hot water, and so snuck up on Noah, taking him unawares.

The text then says:

Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

And so, because of the effect of the (now alcoholic in content) juice ("wine"), Noah became hot and removed his clothing, and lay down in his tent.

Ham, his son, became aware of this, and looked upon his father, in the tent, and instead of "Honouring [his] father" (Exodus 20:12), went and told his brothers about the event, bringing shame upon his father.

Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

However, the two brothers, when made aware of this about their father, did so "Honour [their] father" (Exodus 20:12), and even covered their eyes:

Genesis 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

When Noah woke up, and became aware of this event, through Shem and Japheth who told him, Noah said:

Genesis 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Genesis 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Genesis 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

The curse upon Canaan, was because of the dishonour of Ham to Noah, and also showed his dishonour toward his heavenly Father (not loving his neighbour; Lev. 19:17-18, and so did not love God aright, Deut. 6:5). The sins of the fathers, and their actions, attitude, are taught to their children, and thus Canaan would become like Ham, and so too their descendants (Canaanites).

The events in the life of Noah, are no example of 'causal ('moderate') drinking of alcohol', but is an example to always be watchful of the "fruit of the vine" (aka "wine") when left too long, and becomes alcoholic, bringing confusion and nakedness (shame). Therefore, so the spiritual. Some take the fruit of the vine of the scripture and turn it into hemlock, and confusion, and so are naked and asleep in their "tent".

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Mar 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

You know absolutely nothing about what you post. There was a couple in Minnesota(iirc) who had a diabetic daughter. She took ill and instead of seeking medical help, the laid hands on her in prayer. She died. Sometimes you need to practical about things. God gave the medical field folks knowledge in how to treat things like anxiety, depression, diabetes, thyroid problems, &c.

I am not for sure if this is the same couple, as they were from Philadelphia.

https://www.fox8live.com/story/2205...-prayer-instead-of-seeking-medical-treatment/

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Mar 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

They were from Wisconsin. This makes two married couples who did this and killed their child. You know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about that which you post, Pharisee.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/21/us/21faith.html

WithinReason · Mar 28, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

You didn't read what I said carefully enough. I didn't say anything about not needing a physician when needed. I said no need for pharmakeia.

Diabetes II is easily reversible through natural things, and as for Diabetes I, even that can be healed, just ask Eric Wilson of Isaiah Ministries, whose pancreas began working again after many years.

Jesus is the Great Physician, and Luke was an understudy. They both used natural remedies of the earth, along with faith in God's word. Mud upon the eyes, the grace juice for the stomach, etc. Herb for the service of mankind, even as the poultice of figs upon the wound of the king.

This does not negate the need for surgery when required, as Jesus performed surgeries also and even gave such advice, naturally and spiritually. In example, cut off (surgery) the hand that offends (spiritually), etc. Cut a member off from the church when needful as Paul (spiritual surgery), etc. The word of God itself cuts to the heart. Yet, the physician cuts to heal, the butcher cuts to kill.

You have misrepresented my response in your willingness to simply justify yourself.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Mar 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

You didn't read what I said carefully enough. I didn't say anything about not needing a physician when needed. I said no need for pharmakeia.

Diabetes II is easily reversible through natural things, and as for Diabetes I, even that can be healed, just ask Eric Wilson of Isaiah Ministries, whose pancreas began working again after many years.

Jesus is the Great Physician, and Luke was an understudy. They both used natural remedies of the earth, along with faith in God's word. Mud upon the eyes, the grace juice for the stomach, etc. Herb for the service of mankind, even as the poultice of figs upon the wound of the king.

This does not negate the need for surgery when required, as Jesus performed surgeries also and even gave such advice, naturally and spiritually. In example, cut off (surgery) the hand that offends (spiritually), etc. Cut a member off from the church when needful as Paul (spiritual surgery), etc. The word of God itself cuts to the heart. Yet, the physician cuts to heal, the butcher cuts to kill.

You have misrepresented my response in your willingness to simply justify yourself.

You denying the use of meds is quite telling. Grape juice for the stomach. That's a humdinger.

You would be deemed an unfit parent and thrown into jail just like those other two couples did who insisted on prayer over medicating their children. God gave us these meds to use.

UnoiAmarah · Mar 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

Are you sure the fruit of the tree yielding seed isn't referring unto the seed inside the nut, like pecans, walnuts, etc? Using herb bearing seed as a example, if you notice he gave the green herb to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the firmament and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth.

However, does what we eat while in the flesh affect our heavenly, or spiritual body since I think that it is a well established fact that what a person eats in the earthly, or corporeal body definitely has a consequence upon the their physical body of flesh.

One has to consider that when the male and female become aware of the mortal nature of their earthly body, they sewed the leaves of the fig tree to cover their nakedness indicates that they must have been in close proximity of a fig tree. Which in Proverbs 27:18 it is written, "Whoso keepeth the fig tree shall eat the fruit thereof..." Have you considered what is written in John 1:48, "Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee."?

presidente · Mar 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

So, how do you interpret passages to arrive at this conclusion? If the word for wine is used in a positive context, do you say, "Oh, that must mean grape juice", but if in a negative context you say, "that must mean fermented wine"? Even though it is the same word?

The Psalms say that God gave man wine to make his heart merry. What kind of wine is that?

hornetguy · Mar 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

Here's your sign......

What else WOULD they use?

Do you honestly think that Jesus would tell us to NOT use life-saving drugs, if they were available?

You are seldom right, but never uncertain, I'll give you that.

So give us a few more page long cut and pastes... I'm certain we all haven't had enough blather from you, yet.....

Lanolin · Mar 28, 2020

isnt alcoholic wine just rotten grape juice? thats why it smells so bad?

Is it a sin to drink alcohol

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