Is it permissible for a Christian to use lethal force to protect himself, others, or his state?

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Is it permissible for a Christian to use lethal force to protect himself, others, or his state?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 76.0%
  • No

    Votes: 5 20.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 4.0%

  • Total voters
    25

AndyMaleh

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2020
863
532
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
#21
True. It isn't that cut and dried, which is why we must pray to God to give us insight into his will for every situation.

David was most certainly supposed to go against Goliath. God's test for his resolve was through his courage and willingness to do whatever the Lord wanted no matter how scary and illogical it seemed.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#22
So was the first church sinning ?
From my understanding they didnt fight back only hid
War is always a last resort. There must be no other options available to preserve society. They used hiding as a means to preserve their society.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
907
141
43
#23
So was the first church sinning ?
From my understanding they didnt fight back only hid
Seems that hiding was not necessary used to avoid a fight.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. .John 6:15

And others times it was used as a strategy is to let the adversary stone themselves....

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:59
 
C

cuz

Guest
#24
Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

If we are followers then we take on the ways of Christ
Christ came to show us the way
No where do you see Christ taking up arms
Only to bare arms

Rom 12:
17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
 
C

cuz

Guest
#26
a warning from God

mat 24: 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#27
If you love this life you will lose yours.

A man or woman with kids or spouse would kill to protect family.

A single person correctly consecrated and sold out to Jesus would die and get their payday willingly.

....as opposed to the carnal nominal believer....who will always be clinging to this life and not have it settled when death comes knocking
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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#28
....after you kill someone,you will never be the same.

So dont do it unless you know you can live with it.

It has ruined many lives.
 

AndyMaleh

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2020
863
532
93
44
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
#29
“ 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord.“

“21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”

Very true. Keep in mind that defending yourself in the heat of the moment is not considered evil no matter the outcome (e.g. attackers killed). Attacking those who attacked you but failed later on out of anger and vengeance is the evil Jesus Christ spoke of and warned us against.

‘ On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]‘

Excellent advice. It is not for the situation when an evil person’s gun is pointing at your head though. It is for more passive forms of evil such as public slander, not paying you what’s due for a job well done, gossiping about you behind your back, bribing officials to get ahead of you, etc...
 

AndyMaleh

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2020
863
532
93
44
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
#30
....after you kill someone,you will never be the same.

So dont do it unless you know you can live with it.

It has ruined many lives.
I disagree. This might be true from an atheistic point of view only since atheists don’t realize this life is only a test by God and the real good life happens later on in Heaven. If the attackers who got killed in an act of self defense chose the path of Satan, then it’s on them to go to hell. If we were wrong to kill them in the heat of the moment, then they’ll be in heaven and we’ll be spared for having good intentions in defending ourselves and not knowing any better. It’s that simple. Any other form of self doubting weakens the heart’s resolve for God and is driven by Satan.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#31
I agree that it’s permissible, but am seeing those who have done this be arrested.

Do laws concerning this vary from state to state?
 

Marano

Senior Member
Dec 7, 2011
398
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#32
Wow, many people in here sayint it's okay to do it, I don't agree at all, unless it's the police or the armed forces, I don't think any christian has any business shooting people even it's for self defense or protecting someone they love.
 

Prycejosh1987

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2020
1,016
189
63
#33
It depends on circumstances and situations. If a person is holding a gun to the head then we should do something about that, but if someone does something threatening but accidentally we should take it on the chin. It really depends on circumstances and what is right to do in that situation. I cannot say Yes and i cannot say No. We should always rebuke and protect ourselves.
 
Jun 6, 2020
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#34
Wow, many people in here sayint it's okay to do it, I don't agree at all...
Neither do I. Christians shooting people strikes me as being antithetical to Christ’s command to love our enemies.

…unless it's the police or the armed forces…
A Christian who joins the police or the armed forces is placing himself/herself in a position where he/she may be called upon to disobey Jesus in order to discharge their duties. If asked, I would counsel against it.

I don't think any christian has any business shooting people even it's for self defense or protecting someone they love.
I’m with you. Keep in mind, though, that taking this position may result in pain, suffering, even martyrdom.

Christians should be prepared to endure hardship at the hands of the wicked. The cost of obeying Jesus in this present evil age is high but the reward for obeying him is the life of the age to come.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#35
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

If possible, but sometimes it's not possible.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,590
17,056
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Tennessee
#36
Neither do I. Christians shooting people strikes me as being antithetical to Christ’s command to love our enemies.



A Christian who joins the police or the armed forces is placing himself/herself in a position where he/she may be called upon to disobey Jesus in order to discharge their duties. If asked, I would counsel against it.



I’m with you. Keep in mind, though, that taking this position may result in pain, suffering, even martyrdom.

Christians should be prepared to endure hardship at the hands of the wicked. The cost of obeying Jesus in this present evil age is high but the reward for obeying him is the life of the age to come.
Why would a member of the armed forces or the police be disobeying Jesus if lethal force is required to resolve a situation?

This is what Jesus said about the military:

Luke 3:14
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely your pay."

He did not say that they should unilaterally disarm. This is what He did say about arms:

Luke 22:35-38
Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".

If every young man or woman contemplating serving their country and followed your counsel, instead of reading from the book of Mark you would be reading the book of Marx.

Jesus certainly was not a pacifist.
 
Jun 6, 2020
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#37
Why would a member of the armed forces or the police be disobeying Jesus if lethal force is required to resolve a situation?
The member would be killing his enemy, not loving his enemy.

This is what Jesus said about the military:

Luke 3:14
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely your pay."

He did not say that they should unilaterally disarm.
The soldiers he addressed were already in the military. There was no provision for members of the military to quit. They served until they died, were unable to serve due to injury or retired.

There are examples of Christians serving in Rome’s military who behaved ethically but refused to engage the enemies of Rome in combat. These Christians were executed by the Romans for obeying Jesus’ command to love their enemies.

Jesus didn’t instruct anyone to join the military or the police.

Christians killing fellow Christians - Jesus is happy with that?

Christians killing non-Christians - Jesus is happy with that?

This is what He did say about arms:

Luke 22:35-38
Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".
Why did he instruct them to buy swords?

Was it so they could join the military? No.

Was it so they could join the police force? No.

Was it so they could defend themselves if attacked by their enemies? No.

Why did he instruct them to purchase swords? In verse 37 Jesus explained why he instructed them to purchase swords - to fulfill the prophesy given in Isaiah 53:12. They were to purchase swords in order for him to be numbered with transgressors.

As the story continues, we see that they bought only two swords. And Jesus said to them? “It is enough.”

Moving ahead in the story, did they use the swords? Verse 49 - when they saw what was going to happen to Jesus they asked him, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” Then Peter did just that. He cut off the right ear of the slave of the high priest! How did Jesus respond to Peter using the sword? He told them, “Stop! No more of this.” What did he do next? He touched the slaves ear and healed him.

In Matthew’s account of this incident, the story continues (Matthew 26:52-54). Jesus rebukes Peter for using the sword. “Then Jesus said to Peter, ‘Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?’”

If every young man or woman contemplating serving their country and followed your counsel, instead of reading from the book of Mark you would be reading the book of Marx.
No I wouldn’t. I might be persecuted. I might be martyred. I would be reading scripture, not Marx.

Jesus certainly was not a pacifist.
Jesus was a pacifist. He killed no one and he instructed no one to kill.

When Jesus returns, then he will kill. And so, apparently, will those who accompany him.

You didn’t include in your post what Jesus said in John 18:36. I’d like to quote it here.

”Jesus answered [Pilate], ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews...”
 
Jun 6, 2020
399
41
28
#38
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

If possible, but sometimes it's not possible.
What are we to do when we’ve done all that we can to live peaceably with all men but they refuse to live peaceably with us?

Should we kill them or should we love them?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#39
What are we to do when we’ve done all that we can to live peaceably with all men but they refuse to live peaceably with us?

Should we kill them or should we love them?
Defend ourselves if that restores the peace. It certainly depends on the situation. Am I or my loved ones in immediate danger?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,590
17,056
113
69
Tennessee
#40
The member would be killing his enemy, not loving his enemy.



The soldiers he addressed were already in the military. There was no provision for members of the military to quit. They served until they died, were unable to serve due to injury or retired.

There are examples of Christians serving in Rome’s military who behaved ethically but refused to engage the enemies of Rome in combat. These Christians were executed by the Romans for obeying Jesus’ command to love their enemies.

Jesus didn’t instruct anyone to join the military or the police.

Christians killing fellow Christians - Jesus is happy with that?

Christians killing non-Christians - Jesus is happy with that?



Why did he instruct them to buy swords?

Was it so they could join the military? No.

Was it so they could join the police force? No.

Was it so they could defend themselves if attacked by their enemies? No.

Why did he instruct them to purchase swords? In verse 37 Jesus explained why he instructed them to purchase swords - to fulfill the prophesy given in Isaiah 53:12. They were to purchase swords in order for him to be numbered with transgressors.

As the story continues, we see that they bought only two swords. And Jesus said to them? “It is enough.”

Moving ahead in the story, did they use the swords? Verse 49 - when they saw what was going to happen to Jesus they asked him, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” Then Peter did just that. He cut off the right ear of the slave of the high priest! How did Jesus respond to Peter using the sword? He told them, “Stop! No more of this.” What did he do next? He touched the slaves ear and healed him.

In Matthew’s account of this incident, the story continues (Matthew 26:52-54). Jesus rebukes Peter for using the sword. “Then Jesus said to Peter, ‘Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?’”



No I wouldn’t. I might be persecuted. I might be martyred. I would be reading scripture, not Marx.



Jesus was a pacifist. He killed no one and he instructed no one to kill.

When Jesus returns, then he will kill. And so, apparently, will those who accompany him.

You didn’t include in your post what Jesus said in John 18:36. I’d like to quote it here.

”Jesus answered [Pilate], ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews...”
There is no provision for those serving in the military today to quit either.

The commandment "Thou shall not kill" is referring to murder, not self-defense, or the use of deadly force, if necessary to preserve life and property by the police or armed forces.

Wisdom, discernment, and common sense is required to know the difference between murder and the examples I outlined.

If Jesus is a pacifist then He would not be coming back to earth ready to do battle with the forces of evil. Until He returns the military and police must do the battle against the forces of evil that wish to do harm to ourselves, our family, and the country that they protect.

Don't worry about being persecuted in the United States as the members of the armed forces are volunteers who have answered the call. This country no longer has a military draft so you would never be compelled to join.

Jesus would certainly not demand that the police be defunded. That stance is ludicrous.