-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What verse says God does not need physical obedience from man for man to be saved?
Gen 22:10-12 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:10-12 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
The gift would be salvation.
[h=1]Question & Answer: Faith a Gift from God?[/h][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]by [/TD]
[TD]Eric Lyons, M.Min.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[SIZE=+3]Q.[/SIZE]
Does Ephesians 2:8-9 teach that faith is a gift from God?
For centuries, various Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Ephesians 2:8. Does “that” (touto) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Lenski, et al.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith the “gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?
Admittedly, from a cursory reading of the passage in Ephesians 2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who advocate the view that faith itself is a gift (i.e., a miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse, “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”).
However, when one examines Ephesians 2:8 in the language in which it was originally written (Greek), he learns that the pronoun that (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent (Mounce, 1993, p. 111), then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other similarly mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.
When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what the relative pronoun (like “that”) is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ. Examine, for example, the following passages from the remainder of the book.
Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of the book of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is salvation, not faith. These two verses thoroughly document how a person is saved, not how a person believes.
Paul was not providing an exposition on faith in his epistle to the Ephesians. Rather salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith (cf. Romans 1:5; 16:26). The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (i.e., the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Admittedly, faith might be categorized as a gift from God in the broad sense in which all things come from God (e.g., the bread for which we work is an indirect gift from God—cf. Matthew 6:9-13), but faith is not a direct gift from God given to some and not to others. As Paul wrote in his letter to the church at Rome, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Faith in Christ as the Son of God is found only in those who have first heard the Word of God, and then believed (cf. John 20:31).
[h=2]REFERENCES[/h] Mounce, William D. (1993), Basics of Biblical Greek (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).
Apologetics Press - Question & Answer: Faith a Gift from God?
[h=1]Question & Answer: Faith a Gift from God?[/h][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]by [/TD]
[TD]Eric Lyons, M.Min.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[SIZE=+3]Q.[/SIZE]
Does Ephesians 2:8-9 teach that faith is a gift from God?
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
[SIZE=+3]A.[/SIZE]
For centuries, various Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Ephesians 2:8. Does “that” (touto) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Lenski, et al.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith the “gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?
Admittedly, from a cursory reading of the passage in Ephesians 2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who advocate the view that faith itself is a gift (i.e., a miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse, “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”).
However, when one examines Ephesians 2:8 in the language in which it was originally written (Greek), he learns that the pronoun that (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent (Mounce, 1993, p. 111), then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other similarly mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.
When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what the relative pronoun (like “that”) is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ. Examine, for example, the following passages from the remainder of the book.
- “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (1:7).
- The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (1:11).
- After believing in, and acting upon, the good news of salvation through Christ, the Christians in Ephesus were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (1:13).
- Sinners are made “alive with Christ,” and are saved “by grace” (2:5).
- Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (2:13).
- Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God...by the effective working of His power” (3:7).
Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of the book of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is salvation, not faith. These two verses thoroughly document how a person is saved, not how a person believes.
- Salvation is by grace.
- Salvation is through faith.
- Salvation is not of yourselves.
- Salvation is the gift of God.
- Salvation is not of works.
Paul was not providing an exposition on faith in his epistle to the Ephesians. Rather salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith (cf. Romans 1:5; 16:26). The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (i.e., the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Admittedly, faith might be categorized as a gift from God in the broad sense in which all things come from God (e.g., the bread for which we work is an indirect gift from God—cf. Matthew 6:9-13), but faith is not a direct gift from God given to some and not to others. As Paul wrote in his letter to the church at Rome, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Faith in Christ as the Son of God is found only in those who have first heard the Word of God, and then believed (cf. John 20:31).
[h=2]REFERENCES[/h] Mounce, William D. (1993), Basics of Biblical Greek (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).
Apologetics Press - Question & Answer: Faith a Gift from God?
S
So let me try to help you, I am not sure where these ideas are coming from, it almost sounds like you believe that God is dependant on man, and that is NO where found in scripture.
[h=1]Irresistible grace[/h]
"Those who obtain the new birth do so, not because they wanted to obtain it, but because of the sovereign discriminating grace of God. That is, men are overcome by grace, not finally because their consciences were more tender or their faith more tenacious than that of other men. Rather, the willingness and ability to do God's will are evidence of God's own faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin, and since man is so corrupt that he will not decide and cannot be wooed to follow after God, sovereign efficacious grace is required to convert him. This is done by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit whereby a fallen man who has heard the gospel is made willing and necessarily turns to Christ in God-given faith." http://www.theopedia.com/Irresistible_grace
John 6:37–40
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Titus 3:5
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
EPH 2:5 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
How does one get born again? he must die to self first.
[h=1]Irresistible grace[/h]
"Those who obtain the new birth do so, not because they wanted to obtain it, but because of the sovereign discriminating grace of God. That is, men are overcome by grace, not finally because their consciences were more tender or their faith more tenacious than that of other men. Rather, the willingness and ability to do God's will are evidence of God's own faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin, and since man is so corrupt that he will not decide and cannot be wooed to follow after God, sovereign efficacious grace is required to convert him. This is done by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit whereby a fallen man who has heard the gospel is made willing and necessarily turns to Christ in God-given faith." http://www.theopedia.com/Irresistible_grace
John 6:37–40
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Titus 3:5
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
EPH 2:5 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
How does one get born again? he must die to self first.
E
Well Jesus states emphatically faith is the work of God.
So I will trust Jesus, Not you.. ok??
And by the way, Rom and james are in harmony.
Romans states faith saved not works.
James states lack of faith (dead faith) does not save.
thus they are in agreement, If faith is what saves, One must HAVE FAITH to be saved.
So I will trust Jesus, Not you.. ok??
And by the way, Rom and james are in harmony.
Romans states faith saved not works.
James states lack of faith (dead faith) does not save.
thus they are in agreement, If faith is what saves, One must HAVE FAITH to be saved.
E
No he does not.
His work is the basis for our faith. Which is WHY it is a gift of God. If he did not do the work, He did not make the promise. There would be absolutely nothing to have faiht in, and our conversation would be meaningless.
The question is, What is your faith in?
Your works. if so your faith is in you (you are trusting your ability to do those works)
The work of God (you trust God to do the work for you)
there is no inbetween.
His work is the basis for our faith. Which is WHY it is a gift of God. If he did not do the work, He did not make the promise. There would be absolutely nothing to have faiht in, and our conversation would be meaningless.
The question is, What is your faith in?
Your works. if so your faith is in you (you are trusting your ability to do those works)
The work of God (you trust God to do the work for you)
there is no inbetween.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Yet you posted "Faith is the WORK OF GOD"
Faith/believing is a work God has commanded man to do, as the jailer was commanded to believe, Acts 16. The imperative implies the jailer had both the ability and responsibility to obey that command. Therefore those that do not believe/have faith, then they are accountable for that lack of faith and not God.
So does one have faith that includes doing what God said or does one have a lack of faith in God by not doing what God has said?
Faith/believing is a work God has commanded man to do, as the jailer was commanded to believe, Acts 16. The imperative implies the jailer had both the ability and responsibility to obey that command. Therefore those that do not believe/have faith, then they are accountable for that lack of faith and not God.
So does one have faith that includes doing what God said or does one have a lack of faith in God by not doing what God has said?
E
It is a work of God. He said it. He does not need to see our work to prove we have faith in him, he did the work. he knows if our faith was real or not. The works are for our benefit, so we can KNOW we have eternal life.
try to learn what faith is, and you will see how wrong you are.
if I am trusting (faith) in someone else completely. it is not a work. He gets the credit and the glory, not me.
If I trust in my own works. I am trusting in self. I get the credit for my works. thus I get the glory, not the other person.
you claim faith in christ is my work. because I can not boast of it or take credit for it. God gets ALL the credit and glory. that is why it is HIS WORK. Not mine.
your intentions are useless to everyone including yourself if you don't do what you intended to do, I don't see how it would mean anything to God.You keep on intending to serve God, keep on intending to pray,keep on intending to help others.I guess you intend to receive eternal life too.
How do you intend to do this...
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
How do you intend to do this...
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
S
If this is true, then Romans 2:4 is a lie because you can't lead dead men anywhere either. You have to take them. 
Rom 2:4
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Salvation is all of god start to finish does man have a part yes, but look at the verse its Gods kindness His irrestable Grace that leads you to repentance the ordo salutis?
Order of Salvation
Election , Predestination, Gospel Call, (general Call), Inward Call (Effectual Call), Regeneration,Conversion (repentance and faith), Justification, “ Sanctification ,Glorification
Do you see man in that? Man responds to the effectual call put at that point God has so done a work in his Heart and pulled the blinders off to ones sin and the kindness of God you cant reject that goodness.
So what was the context of the verse? We have to go back to chapter one as two starts out with therefore and whats the therefore, therefore "because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator"
Paul continues.
Rom 2:1
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
Rom 2:2
We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3
Do you suppose, O man--you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself--that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
He's talking about escaping the judgement of God and that His Gods kindness leads to repentance Whose kindness Gods, whose Working God. Who deserves the Honor and the glory God. So that all of creation can marvel and say God saved a dirty sinner like StoneThrower. Wow isnt he an amazing God