Is justification by faith alone?

[Roaster]

OK, what I wanted to compliment my post number 259 with is commentary of Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Notice that the only reason that Old Law could not justify us is that we did not know how to keep it properly while trying to apply it by our own wisdom.

Therefore, it is only improperly applied law that Paul says cannot justify us because being improperly applied it can only expose knowledge of sin.

But properly applied works can justify us just as James said.

And so could that Old Law when properly applied by God's wisdom rather than our own. Notice that:

Galatians 3:12 "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."

These simple missed understandings have caused men t o totally reject God's righteous law and men are going to be made pay by God for that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It would seem that way when we do not understand that the works being spoken of are not God's works for us but are works we by our own wisdom and zeal choose to do in an effort to please God.

It is impossible to please God apart from having the works he designed us to have. But those are his works which he foreordained that we should walk in them. His works for us are not new. He has always made those works known to us but man has been too busy doing it his own way to pay attention so as to know those works.

i will explain this a bit further in a second or two, for there is something else we must see.

You are hitting a dangerous place there by trying to separate works from works.

All of the works God asks us to do is for our own benefit, and the benefit of others.

We can do these works over and over, Yet never be saved. In fact Jesus said in that day many will come to him with these works. and he will say depart for I never knew you.

If works are done to earn salvation. Or to keep salvation. they are works done for self 9carnal) and not for God.

Works done in faith, for the benefit of the love of others, is what God calls us to do. This is impossible with out faith in God. and even more impossible for the unbeliever, who has no capacity to do these things.

the point is When it says faith minus works It means faith minus works. No matter what tye of work you wish it to be. It is no work period.

"not by works of righteousness which I have done (the works you are talking about out of love for god or not) he saved me by his mercy (underserved forgiveness, out of love) by the washing and renewal of the spirit.

It is mercy and love which saves us, Not our good deeds.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

....false teachers tend to get testy when their false teachings get exposed...

well you were just exposed.

I said the work of God (his work of the cross. His promise of eternal life based on his love and forgiveness, And his power to give us the right to be his children based on our faith.

You twisted that and made it seem like I said he gave me faith, but kept it from someone else.

Keep talking. You keep making a further mockery of yourself in all you say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK, what I wanted to compliment my post number 259 with is commentary of Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Notice that the only reason that Old Law could not justify us is that we did not know how to keep it properly while trying to apply it by our own wisdom.

Therefore, it is only improperly applied law that Paul says cannot justify us because being improperly applied it can only expose knowledge of sin.

But properly applied works can justify us just as James said.

And so could that Old Law when properly applied by God's wisdom rather than our own. Notice that:

Galatians 3:12 "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."

These simple missed understandings have caused men t o totally reject God's righteous law and men are going to be made pay by God for that.

You honestly do not know the law if you think this.

Cused is everyone who does not obey ALL THE LAW (galations)

The law was given to bring us to Christ (schoolmaster)

You can not keep the law. And if you have broken one command, you have been found guilty of the whole law (death) it is to late for you. You can never go back to be perfect under the law to save yourself. it is too late, Every sin you commit after just takes you further and further from the just requirement of the law. If one sin condemns you forever. think of the many sins you have commited. You have NO HOPE apart from Christ. He fulfilled the law. And died for you.

Recieve his sacrifice in faith, Or try to work to earn your salvation of your own merit. those are your only two choices.

 

[Roaster]

You are hitting a dangerous place there by trying to separate works from works.

All of the works God asks us to do is for our own benefit, and the benefit of others.

We can do these works over and over, Yet never be saved. In fact Jesus said in that day many will come to him with these works. and he will say depart for I never knew you.

If works are done to earn salvation. Or to keep salvation. they are works done for self 9carnal) and not for God.

Works done in faith, for the benefit of the love of others, is what God calls us to do. This is impossible with out faith in God. and even more impossible for the unbeliever, who has no capacity to do these things.

the point is When it says faith minus works It means faith minus works. No matter what tye of work you wish it to be. It is no work period.

"not by works of righteousness which I have done (the works you are talking about out of love for god or not) he saved me by his mercy (underserved forgiveness, out of love) by the washing and renewal of the spirit.

It is mercy and love which saves us, Not our good deeds.

Again you miss the point. That is only because we had already violated the law of God and became as dead due to violating it. But it could have justified us if we had known how to properly keep it. We did not know and God knew that when he gave that law to prove to us that we did not know how and thus making us willing to learn how from Christ as the end of that Law's condemnation of us.

That in no way means we can now disregard that law for to do so is to fail to grasp our need of Christ and what God sent him to teach us. We fulfill that law in Christ or we are liars that we are in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again you miss the point. That is only because we had already violated the law of God and became as dead due to violating it. But it could have justified us if we had known how to properly keep it. We did not know and God knew that when he gave that law to prove to us that we did not know how and thus making us willing to learn how from Christ as the end of that Law's condemnation of us.

No, You missed the point. It has nothing to do with knowing how to keep it. It has everything to do with our inability to keep it. A christian can;t keep it. And they have the power to do it. So how could an unbeliever who is alienated from Christ ever keep it?

If you think you can keep it. you do not understand it still.

Not to mention. TYhe law does not even show us every sin we could and do commit. It is just a base guidline, To prove we can not even keep that. let alone everything God considers sin, He did not have to give us every sin to show we are sinners (which really speaks sadly for us does it not?

That in no way means we can now disregard that law for to do so is to fail to grasp our need of Christ and what God sent him to teach us. We fulfill that law in Christ or we are liars that we are in Christ.

The law of Christ is not the law of moses.

We keep the law of Christ by showing love, But we can not even do this perfectly. Anytime we do ANYTHING for self. we commit sin. You can not go 24 hours without doing something with self in mind, that is impossible.

 

[Roaster]

No, You missed the point. It has nothing to do with knowing how to keep it. It has everything to do with our inability to keep it. A christian can;t keep it. And they have the power to do it. So how could an unbeliever who is alienated from Christ ever keep it?

If you think you can keep it. you do not understand it still.

Not to mention. TYhe law does not even show us every sin we could and do commit. It is just a base guidline, To prove we can not even keep that. let alone everything God considers sin, He did not have to give us every sin to show we are sinners (which really speaks sadly for us does it not?



The law of Christ is not the law of moses.

We keep the law of Christ by showing love, But we can not even do this perfectly. Anytime we do ANYTHING for self. we commit sin. You can not go 24 hours without doing something with self in mind, that is impossible.

You do not know how to love unless you know God's law.

You are right that the law of Christ is not the law of Moses but you seem to look right past the fact that God's everlasting law was entwined with the law of Moses and it was that everlasting law which all the added features of that law to Moses emphasized as rendering one unholy to fail to keep. And that remains true in Christ. If our brand of love unwittingly excuses lawlessness, which means failure to keep God's everlasting law, and we claim that in Christ that is all we need, then we preach a Christ that came to excuse lawlessness rather than to do away with lawlessness. And for that misrepresentation of Christ we will pay with severity.

Romans 13:9 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Therefore, you cannot be walking in the love that is Christ without you are obedient to God's law. If you commit adultery or kill or steal, or bear false witness or covet, or violate any of the other commandments and then wink at it as though, 'Oh I goofed up but God understands', you then presume upon God's mercy and fail to appreciate that in Christ you are called to be holy. And the love you practice is not God's love at all but your own brand of it.

 

[Roaster]

I would like to also address some other things you said in your last post, eternally-gratefull, which expose further lack of understanding by you.

You are relying on your missed understanding of Romans chapter 7 and perhaps Psalms 51:5 to make statements like that it is not possible for a Christian to keep that law. If you would like to enter a discussion of those two sections of scripture I will prove that from scripture for all who are meek enough to receive it, for no one can prove anything to one who refuses to learn.

There is much you do not know and it is the fact that you think you know that keeps you from seeing what you have yet to learn.

 

[Kerry]

I would like to also address some other things you said in your last post, eternally-gratefull, which expose further lack of understanding by you.

You are relying on your missed understanding of Romans chapter 7 and perhaps Psalms 51:5 to make statements like that it is not possible for a Christian to keep that law. If you would like to enter a discussion of those two sections of scripture I will prove that from scripture for all who are meek enough to receive it, for no one can prove anything to one who refuses to learn.

There is much you do not know and it is the fact that you think you know that keeps you from seeing what you have yet to learn.

Did the law save you?or did it condemn you?

 

[BradC]

I would like to also address some other things you said in your last post, eternally-gratefull, which expose further lack of understanding by you.

You are relying on your missed understanding of Romans chapter 7 and perhaps Psalms 51:5 to make statements like that it is not possible for a Christian to keep that law. If you would like to enter a discussion of those two sections of scripture I will prove that from scripture for all who are meek enough to receive it, for no one can prove anything to one who refuses to learn.

There is much you do not know and it is the fact that you think you know that keeps you from seeing what you have yet to learn.

If a sinner is not justified by faith then we are all in serious trouble. Is it not enough for a sinner to cry out for mercy and be justified or is there more to justification than by faith?

Luke 18:11-14

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I see nothing but faith on the publican's part trusting God for mercy as a sinner and this parable came from the lips of Jesus. Mercy is based upon the work of God's righteousness and not ours. Mercy rejoices against judgment because of the finished work of Christ on the cross, who was judged and put away sin. We are merciful to others in the same manner that God has been merciful unto us. We forgive because we have been forgiven. We love because we are loved by God. We minister grace because we have received grace from God. We are justified by faith because of the blood that was shed on the cross on our behalf. Faith is the only way that we can freely receive any of these things that are of God through His Son. If their is any work on our part it is to humble ourselves.

 

[Kerry]

It is by faith and faith in what? y'all answer.

 

[Roaster]

If a sinner is not justified by faith then we are all in serious trouble. Is it not enough for a sinner to cry out for mercy and be justified or is there more to justification than by faith?

Luke 18:11-14

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I see nothing but faith on the publican's part trusting God for mercy as a sinner and this parable came from the lips of Jesus. Mercy is based upon the work of God's righteousness and not ours. Mercy rejoices against judgment because of the finished work of Christ on the cross, who was judged and put away sin. We are merciful to others in the same manner that God has been merciful unto us. We forgive because we have been forgiven. We love because we are loved by God. We minister grace because we have received grace from God. We are justified by faith because of the blood that was shed on the cross on our behalf. Faith is the only way that we can freely receive any of these things that are of God through His Son. If their is any work on our part it is to humble ourselves.

You are in serious trouble if you think you are justified by 'faith alone'. You cannot deny what the Bible writer James has told you and be right but in your own eyes.

Don't try to misrepresent what I say. That is a straw man's tactic.

I said we cnnot be justified apart from faith but we are not justified by faith alone as you are trying to claim, in denial of what the inspired Bible writer James has told you.

 

[Roaster]

I also said we cannot be justified apart from faith but we are not justified by faith alone as you are trying to claim, in denial of what the inspired Bible writer James has told you. I said we could have been justified by works of that Old law if we had been able to keep it perfectly in the first place. But I also said we cannot now be justified by works of law because we violated that law and that law killed us.

Therefore, to get us back to life before God could only be of God's grace toward our faith. But from there forward more is required. The works of God are required and without them you will be a fruitless tree that he will cut down, despite your claims of faith.

 

[Kerry]

Dude without faith were toast.

 

[Roaster]

Dude without faith were toast.

yes, without faith we are toast.

And having been given a status of life before God without God's works added to that faith we are yet toast.

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

 

[Kerry]

exactly, without faith in the cross you cannot have works. other wise it is flesh and God will not accept it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do not know how to love unless you know God's law.

sorry my friend.

Gods law does not teach us how to love, Jesus made this clear. it was not given to show us how to love, it was given to show how sinful we are. so we could be led to christ.

the law is flawed in its ability to show us ALL sin, let alone showing us how to love.

if the law of moses could show us how to love, and not be carnal minded, Christ would never have had to come, we could save ourselves (well in reality not. we still have our failures to obey the law to deal with. which cannot be dealt with by our human deeds. so we would still be up the creek without a paddle with no hope.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are in serious trouble if you think you are justified by 'faith alone'. You cannot deny what the Bible writer James has told you and be right but in your own eyes.

Don't try to misrepresent what I say. That is a straw man's tactic.

I said we cnnot be justified apart from faith but we are not justified by faith alone as you are trying to claim, in denial of what the inspired Bible writer James has told you.

Your in serious trouble if you continue to take james out of context and claim your works can and will save you.

James is talking to people who have no faith period (it is dead) proven by the fact they are hearers of the word and not doers (how can you claim you have faith and trust God in his word. and not do anything about it? it is a false faith, a false hope. and will not save anyone)

And you better start interpreting Paul correctly. Because he is speaking directly to, and against your works based legalistic gospel of works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes, without faith we are toast.

And having been given a status of life before God without God's works added to that faith we are yet toast.

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

how much faith is a dead faith, is it any faith at all??

Can lack of faith save you? or do all we have to do is have a mental agreement with God but never trust a thing he says or does?

 

[BradC]

You are in serious trouble if you think you are justified by 'faith alone'. You cannot deny what the Bible writer James has told you and be right but in your own eyes.

Don't try to misrepresent what I say. That is a straw man's tactic.

I said we cnnot be justified apart from faith but we are not justified by faith alone as you are trying to claim, in denial of what the inspired Bible writer James has told you.

I gave you a scriptural illustration for which you made no comment. Was the publican justified by faith only or not? Jesus gave this parable and it is in the scriptures for our learning. There is no works associated with his faith except to trust in the mercy of God as a sinner. The publican went home justified and when we as sinner ask God to have mercy on us as sinners we are also justified by faith without works. James was concerned about believers being involved with works of love, those works that we are to provoke one another with trough the promises of God. If the love of God is stirred up in our hearts our faith will be active with the love of God, for faith works and is motivated by the love of God. That is what James was illustrating to provoke those believers of the faith unto good works.