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James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Rom 6:17,18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then made free from sin (justified)
Obedience BEFORE justification.......by obedient works a man is justified, not justified by faith only.
Rom 6:17,18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then made free from sin (justified)
Obedience BEFORE justification.......by obedient works a man is justified, not justified by faith only.
E
repentance and faith are united.
you can not have one without the other.
one who has not repented may believe in God, and all he says, but not have faith in God.
true repentance produces true faith, which produces true salvation (eternal life) and it ALL comes from god. not self. (it is the work of GOD that we believe in the one he sent, as our Lord says in john 6)
anything else is a false gospel.
you can not have one without the other.
one who has not repented may believe in God, and all he says, but not have faith in God.
true repentance produces true faith, which produces true salvation (eternal life) and it ALL comes from god. not self. (it is the work of GOD that we believe in the one he sent, as our Lord says in john 6)
anything else is a false gospel.
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quit a lot revealed in so doing...........If this were true, then if a person has no faith and is lost it is God's fault for failing to give that person faith.
Mt 8:26 Jesus should have rebuked God for failing to give those disciples sufficient faith?
Jn 3:16 "whosoever believeth" If God gives faith then how does He decide who He gives faith to and withholds faith from? Why does Jn 3:16 say "whosoever believeth"? Because it is up to the individual to choose to have faith or not, having faith is not something God decides for man. Men are commanded to believe, Acts 16:31. The imperative implies men have both the ability and responsibility to have faith. Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:9 belief comes from within the human heart upon hearing the word.
It's not possible one become part of God's elect, a Christian/disciple by doing nothing.
E
see this is a man who does not understand what "death faith" means as compared to "true faith (which works)
he does not understand a "dead faith" will never save you, has never saved you, and can never save you, period. You can have all the belief in the world. One God, One Gospel. One salvation. Christ Death, and still not be saved, because your faith is dead. you are still focused on SELF and not God.
so he wants to interject "self" into the picture, thinking he will somehow 'earn" Gods forgiveness by his deeds. verses allowing God to "save him" "Change him" And "Work through him" (thus the works part)
Faith only = dead faith.
Abraham's faith was not dead for it included the obedient work of offering Isaac and by this work was he justified, James 2:21. What was Abraham earning by doing this obedient work of offering Isaac? Nothing. Abraham's obedient works shows his focus was on God in doing what God said for him to do. Lk 6:46 is one focused on the Lord yet not do what the Lord has said? No.
Abraham's faith was not dead for it included the obedient work of offering Isaac and by this work was he justified, James 2:21. What was Abraham earning by doing this obedient work of offering Isaac? Nothing. Abraham's obedient works shows his focus was on God in doing what God said for him to do. Lk 6:46 is one focused on the Lord yet not do what the Lord has said? No.
E
Where did you learn to compute mathematics.
A dead faith = ZERO FAITH which is no faith at all. So how can faith alone (which states there was faith) = a dead faith? It would not be faith alone, it would be no faith at all.
you need to read Romans 4. Abraham was not justified by his work. He believed God and because of it, his faith was accounted as righteousness.
His work proceded from his TRUE FAITH. (it was not dead) but he was NOT SAVED by his work. Otherwise he earned it.
James did not contradict Paul. Paul and james wrote to two different audiences.
Romans was written to you. You better study it.
James was written to hearers of the word, not doers. People who claimed they had faith, but had mere belief, Proven by the fact they did not have faith.
Abraham might have believed God would raise his son from the dead, But if he did not have complete actual trust (faith) God would do it. He would not have done the work which proved his faith was real. The works Paul said all who have faith WILL DO. And the works that James agreed, that a living faith works. A dead faith will not do the work. Thus is NO FAITH AT ALL.
A dead faith = ZERO FAITH which is no faith at all. So how can faith alone (which states there was faith) = a dead faith? It would not be faith alone, it would be no faith at all.
you need to read Romans 4. Abraham was not justified by his work. He believed God and because of it, his faith was accounted as righteousness.
His work proceded from his TRUE FAITH. (it was not dead) but he was NOT SAVED by his work. Otherwise he earned it.
James did not contradict Paul. Paul and james wrote to two different audiences.
Romans was written to you. You better study it.
James was written to hearers of the word, not doers. People who claimed they had faith, but had mere belief, Proven by the fact they did not have faith.
Abraham might have believed God would raise his son from the dead, But if he did not have complete actual trust (faith) God would do it. He would not have done the work which proved his faith was real. The works Paul said all who have faith WILL DO. And the works that James agreed, that a living faith works. A dead faith will not do the work. Thus is NO FAITH AT ALL.
James 2:20 faith without works is dead. Faith only has no works, so it's dead.
James 2 clearly explains that Abraham was justified by works not by faith only and Abraham was not trying to earn justification by the obedient work of offering Isaac. Works were a part of Abraham's faith... "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:" Heb 11:17. Rom 4 does not contradict any of this. James was written for all to read and study.
James 2 clearly explains that Abraham was justified by works not by faith only and Abraham was not trying to earn justification by the obedient work of offering Isaac. Works were a part of Abraham's faith... "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:" Heb 11:17. Rom 4 does not contradict any of this. James was written for all to read and study.
E
Again my friend. You need to study math.
1 by itself is still one, it is not dead, it has value.
There is NO SUCH THINGS AS FAITH ALONE (Faith which is not followed by works produced by that faith)
the questions is. How is one saved, By faith (before works were even completed. as paul said in romans 4. The works just proving his faith was real.
Or only after the first work was produced?
if the answer is the second one (as your preaching) we might as well throw all Pauls writings out of scripture. they are in error.
Romans 4 was also written for all to read and study, Yet you want to focus on james. and completely ignore romans 4. which according to YOUR INTERPRETATION does contradict james.
My interpretation does not. it leaves them in unity.
romans 4. -
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
James says the complete opposite.
so who is right? james or paul? Is salvation and justification a debt we earn by our works. or is it a gift of God given to those who trust him (faith) And the works which naturally procede from true faith proves the person was really saved?
you can not have it both ways..
1 by itself is still one, it is not dead, it has value.
There is NO SUCH THINGS AS FAITH ALONE (Faith which is not followed by works produced by that faith)
the questions is. How is one saved, By faith (before works were even completed. as paul said in romans 4. The works just proving his faith was real.
Or only after the first work was produced?
if the answer is the second one (as your preaching) we might as well throw all Pauls writings out of scripture. they are in error.
Romans 4 was also written for all to read and study, Yet you want to focus on james. and completely ignore romans 4. which according to YOUR INTERPRETATION does contradict james.
My interpretation does not. it leaves them in unity.
romans 4. -
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
James says the complete opposite.
so who is right? james or paul? Is salvation and justification a debt we earn by our works. or is it a gift of God given to those who trust him (faith) And the works which naturally procede from true faith proves the person was really saved?
you can not have it both ways..
Math has nothing to do with it. As James said "faith without works is dead" 'Faith only' has no works so it qualifies as being dead according to James. And a dead faith cannot save.
Why do you run away from James 2 to Romans 4? Romans 4 does not contradict, undo or change what James 2 says.
James - faith without works does not justify
Paul - works without faith does not justify.
James is speaking about obedient works/obeying God (as Abraham offering Isaac) and Paul speaks of works of merit.
As to Rom 4:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 3:12 the OT law was not of faith, so the Jews were seen to faithlessly do works of merit trying to earn salvation. It is this work of merit Paul speaks of in Rom 4:4. If the worker of merits earned his salvation, then salvation is not of grace but something owed to him, a debt. But in Rom 4:5 Paul explains Abraham was not a worker of merit who tried to earn his salvation, but rather Abraham was justified by an obedient belief in God - which fits perfectly with what James said of Abraham.
Why do you run away from James 2 to Romans 4? Romans 4 does not contradict, undo or change what James 2 says.
James - faith without works does not justify
Paul - works without faith does not justify.
James is speaking about obedient works/obeying God (as Abraham offering Isaac) and Paul speaks of works of merit.
As to Rom 4:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 3:12 the OT law was not of faith, so the Jews were seen to faithlessly do works of merit trying to earn salvation. It is this work of merit Paul speaks of in Rom 4:4. If the worker of merits earned his salvation, then salvation is not of grace but something owed to him, a debt. But in Rom 4:5 Paul explains Abraham was not a worker of merit who tried to earn his salvation, but rather Abraham was justified by an obedient belief in God - which fits perfectly with what James said of Abraham.
E
again you ignore math. a dead faith is NO FAITH AT ALL, it is non existent.
if your dead, do you have any life in your mortal body? it is dead, it is not alive.
If you want to continue to twist things. That is your prerogative. But if your going to try to say faith alone IS FAITH. then you have major problems.
Yeah actually it does/. as your interpretation of James proves. You can not have it both ways. And I am not running to romans. I am doing what all men should do. testing scripture. Romans 4 says the opposite of what james says, Or does it? According to you it does. Who should I believe?? You or Paul?
where do you get this from? Paul said nothing about works. other than it does not justify. You can not say works does not justify. then say only works without faith. NOTHING in Romans 4 even hints at this. Your adding to the word of God.
No. James is speaking of hearers and not doers. People, who like the demons, believe in God. Believe he is one God, Even believe Jesus died on the cross for their sin, But have absolutely no faith in it. They have belief, not faith. Belief will not save, Only Faith will. And TRUE FAITH, vs a mere believe) PRODUCES WORK.
James is telling you seabass, to test your faith, is it real, or is it mere belief. And he tells you how to test it.
Paul is talking to people who are trying to add works of obedience to the gospel of Christ, he said these obedient works do not save, If they do, you have EARNED SALVATION, thus God lied, it was never a gift to begin with, it is a reward.
Justification is free by the grace of God, not of works, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST.
Keep on boasting of your works, and being the modern day pharisee judging those of us who trust God completely to keep his promise in spite of our shortcomings.
I will keep boasting on God who saved me based on HIS WORK and his work alone, and show my faith in ALL he says by doing what I can do do the works HE SAVED ME TO DO.
um. no comment?
it is quite clear what it says, Abraham, who was before the law/ Was not justified by works, if he was, he works to earn reward. Not grace. But to him who does not work to earn reward. But has FAITH IN GOD, his FAITH IS COUNTED as righteousness.
there is NO OTHER WAY TO INTERPRET THAT.
why are you bringing the law in? There was no law in abrahams day so you can not use it in context of romans 4.
Paul makes it clear. Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, but by FAITH (ALONE).
His works were a RESULT OF HIS FAITH.
his works were a RESULT OF HIS JUSTIFICATION.
Your making justification a result of your personal work. This is of the devil, and not of God.
if your dead, do you have any life in your mortal body? it is dead, it is not alive.
If you want to continue to twist things. That is your prerogative. But if your going to try to say faith alone IS FAITH. then you have major problems.
Yeah actually it does/. as your interpretation of James proves. You can not have it both ways. And I am not running to romans. I am doing what all men should do. testing scripture. Romans 4 says the opposite of what james says, Or does it? According to you it does. Who should I believe?? You or Paul?
where do you get this from? Paul said nothing about works. other than it does not justify. You can not say works does not justify. then say only works without faith. NOTHING in Romans 4 even hints at this. Your adding to the word of God.
No. James is speaking of hearers and not doers. People, who like the demons, believe in God. Believe he is one God, Even believe Jesus died on the cross for their sin, But have absolutely no faith in it. They have belief, not faith. Belief will not save, Only Faith will. And TRUE FAITH, vs a mere believe) PRODUCES WORK.
James is telling you seabass, to test your faith, is it real, or is it mere belief. And he tells you how to test it.
Paul is talking to people who are trying to add works of obedience to the gospel of Christ, he said these obedient works do not save, If they do, you have EARNED SALVATION, thus God lied, it was never a gift to begin with, it is a reward.
Justification is free by the grace of God, not of works, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST.
Keep on boasting of your works, and being the modern day pharisee judging those of us who trust God completely to keep his promise in spite of our shortcomings.
I will keep boasting on God who saved me based on HIS WORK and his work alone, and show my faith in ALL he says by doing what I can do do the works HE SAVED ME TO DO.
um. no comment?
it is quite clear what it says, Abraham, who was before the law/ Was not justified by works, if he was, he works to earn reward. Not grace. But to him who does not work to earn reward. But has FAITH IN GOD, his FAITH IS COUNTED as righteousness.
there is NO OTHER WAY TO INTERPRET THAT.
why are you bringing the law in? There was no law in abrahams day so you can not use it in context of romans 4.
Paul makes it clear. Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, but by FAITH (ALONE).
His works were a RESULT OF HIS FAITH.
his works were a RESULT OF HIS JUSTIFICATION.
Your making justification a result of your personal work. This is of the devil, and not of God.