Is KJV the only real bible version?
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What you said about Psalm 139 doesn't address the problem that the KJV doesn't match what Paul quoted. A study of church history will show that Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint as their OT, not the Masoretic text. The text the KJV is translated from is from around the 700's AD. There are quite a few places that the KJV OT differs from the NT. If it was the pure word of God it wouldn't wrongly quote the OT. The argument that the KJV is the pure word of God doesn't hold water when it's got errors.
New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) [SUP]18[/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31
Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) [SUP]31[/SUP]Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
New Testament
Matthew 15:7-9 ( KJV ) [SUP]7[/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [SUP]8[/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [SUP]9[/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Here Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13
Masoretic text
Isaiah 29:13 ( KJV ) [SUP]13[/SUP]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Septuagint,
Isaiah 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
New Testament
Matthew 21:16 ( KJV ) [SUP]16[/SUP]And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Masoretic text
Psalms 8:2 ( KJV ) [SUP]2 [/SUP]Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Septuagint,
Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.
There are more.
New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) [SUP]18[/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31
Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) [SUP]31[/SUP]Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
New Testament
Matthew 15:7-9 ( KJV ) [SUP]7[/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [SUP]8[/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [SUP]9[/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Here Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13
Masoretic text
Isaiah 29:13 ( KJV ) [SUP]13[/SUP]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Septuagint,
Isaiah 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
New Testament
Matthew 21:16 ( KJV ) [SUP]16[/SUP]And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Masoretic text
Psalms 8:2 ( KJV ) [SUP]2 [/SUP]Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Septuagint,
Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.
There are more.
I see what you're saying Butch and I agree the New Testament writers quoted the Septuagint but that doesn't mean everything in the Septuagint was right. My opinion is that the New Testament writers quoted it because that's what most of the people knew as scripture, but I don't know that for a fact either.
I know you see that as an error, and I can respect that view. You believe that in order to be inerrant, it must match the original. When I say the KJV has no errors that's not what I mean. I mean that every word in the bible is put there to help us understand God's word, not one verse will contradict another. Are the righteous scarcely saved yes they are. No matter where Peter quoted it from, it is true. I have to go to work now, but I want to come back and finish later.
I know you see that as an error, and I can respect that view. You believe that in order to be inerrant, it must match the original. When I say the KJV has no errors that's not what I mean. I mean that every word in the bible is put there to help us understand God's word, not one verse will contradict another. Are the righteous scarcely saved yes they are. No matter where Peter quoted it from, it is true. I have to go to work now, but I want to come back and finish later.
Ok, but my point is, when the apostles quote the OT and we go to the OT and it doesn't say what they quoted, there are times when we cannot know what they are talking about. When Paul quotes the OT and says 'a body thou hast prepared for me' and we go to the OT to look at the context that Paul is trying to import into his letter and don't find it it we don't know what he is trying to point out. He uses that phrase to make his point, yet, that phrase isn't in the KJV. Unless one knows to go to the Septuagint they could easily come away with a wrong understanding of what Paul is saying.
In addition to that, there times when the writers say, 'it is written.' That seems odd if we go to there and it's not written.
If there was an argument to be made for an inspired translation, I think the evidence for the Septuagint is much stronger than that of the KJV.
In addition to that, there times when the writers say, 'it is written.' That seems odd if we go to there and it's not written.
If there was an argument to be made for an inspired translation, I think the evidence for the Septuagint is much stronger than that of the KJV.
Very true! Now, as Butch has pointed out with several excellent examples, the lxx (Septuagint) translators weren't careful about translating the hebrew*... yet, the nt writers quote it a lot... this situation says to me that God doesn't care a lot about exact wording... that the idea of the 'word of God' must be something other than printed words on a page...
* or, they were working from a different text than the masoretic, a very real possibility... and who can say which is more accurate?
* or, they were working from a different text than the masoretic, a very real possibility... and who can say which is more accurate?
U
On a scholastic level, the Dead Sea Scrolls support the Septuagint.
On a spiritual level, the Word of God is not letters on a page,
but is the Spirit of Christ that moved the Prophets to write,
and the Spirit of Christ within believers that helps them understand the Prophets.
Jesus is the Word raised up above all else, not a translation of letters.
We follow the Spirit, not the Letter.
God has not bound Himself to obey the words of translators,
but He is who the Spirit says He is, and who Christ said He is,
and the three agree in One.
God does not change Himself just because people have changed the the wording of the Bible,
because the Word made flesh is unchanging.
The original manuscripts were inerrant, and the Word within us is inerrant.
On a spiritual level, the Word of God is not letters on a page,
but is the Spirit of Christ that moved the Prophets to write,
and the Spirit of Christ within believers that helps them understand the Prophets.
Jesus is the Word raised up above all else, not a translation of letters.
We follow the Spirit, not the Letter.
God has not bound Himself to obey the words of translators,
but He is who the Spirit says He is, and who Christ said He is,
and the three agree in One.
God does not change Himself just because people have changed the the wording of the Bible,
because the Word made flesh is unchanging.
The original manuscripts were inerrant, and the Word within us is inerrant.
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U
We don't need confidence in the work of human hands, but need confidence in Christ.
We do not need to trust translators and translations, but need to trust the Author.
If the world tried to burn every copy of Scripture they could find, they would not succeed,
because the Author is still alive and active in the world,
and His Word is written inerrently on the hearts of His People
We do not need to trust translators and translations, but need to trust the Author.
If the world tried to burn every copy of Scripture they could find, they would not succeed,
because the Author is still alive and active in the world,
and His Word is written inerrently on the hearts of His People
U
And they do not agree with the Masoretic text, but with the Septuagint.
This leaves us confident that the early Greek translation of the OT is more faithful to the original than the later transcription of the Hebrew.
Translation between Greek and Hebrew isn't the issue. Distortions over time due to scribal error and editing are the issue. The Masoretic text does not match the Dead Sea scrolls as accurately as the LXX.
Being written in Hebrew doesn't make it line up with an earlier Hebrew rendering. They have to say the same thing.
Being written in Greek doesn't make it not line up with an earlier Hebrew rendering, if they are saying the same thing.
Good translation and preservation > (greater than) scribal editing and errors.
This leaves us confident that the early Greek translation of the OT is more faithful to the original than the later transcription of the Hebrew.
Translation between Greek and Hebrew isn't the issue. Distortions over time due to scribal error and editing are the issue. The Masoretic text does not match the Dead Sea scrolls as accurately as the LXX.
Being written in Hebrew doesn't make it line up with an earlier Hebrew rendering. They have to say the same thing.
Being written in Greek doesn't make it not line up with an earlier Hebrew rendering, if they are saying the same thing.
Good translation and preservation > (greater than) scribal editing and errors.
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Hi Dan,
That is likely the case. There apparently is what is called a proto Maseretic text that was used when translating the Septuagint. The Septuagint was the Bible for Greek speaking Israelites. However, the Christians began using it so effectively to prove that Jesus was the Christ that the leadership finally rejected it and called it a flawed version. Somewhere along the line the Hebrew texts were changed, whether intentional of accidental I don't know.
That is likely the case. There apparently is what is called a proto Maseretic text that was used when translating the Septuagint. The Septuagint was the Bible for Greek speaking Israelites. However, the Christians began using it so effectively to prove that Jesus was the Christ that the leadership finally rejected it and called it a flawed version. Somewhere along the line the Hebrew texts were changed, whether intentional of accidental I don't know.