Is "limited atonement" real?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
#61
cronjecj said:
eg, read it in context from John 7-9

7.Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient
for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the
Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,
I will send him unto you (body of believers).
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We agree completely here.

8.And when he is come, he will reprove the world
of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


9.Of sin, because they believe not on me;
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Notice here. The world. he will reprove them of sin, why? they do not believe in him. This is not the "you" he spoke of before. He will come to us to show us ALL god wants us to know. He will at the same time go to the world to show them their sin.


the Holy Ghost reproves\convicts
the world of sin, righteousness
and judgment through the body
of believers.

the unrighteous does not have the
Holy Ghost to convict them of sin
otherwise they would have come to
the light but they remain in darkness.
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The HS does not have to enter you to speak to you. He can speak to you quite easily without entering or coming into you. All he has to do is plant a thought in your head. Satan does this all the time without entering us, is Satan more powerful than God?
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#62
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
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#62
eternally-gratefull said:
it seems twisted? So adolf hitler murdered jews just because it was his will, and allowed others to live just because it was his will and you don't see the connection?
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No, I currently only see YOU and your philosophical struggles and scripture wrestling in these posts. You are talking about twisting things and now begin mention Hitler and stuff. It has passed the level of acceptance.

then you do not know God very well. then again you don't, or you would not believe what you do.
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From my side of the table I could say the same thing right back at ya. What good would it serve for the thread?
God said we are predestined based on foreknowledge. thats all we need to know.
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And there's no mentioning of any foreseen merit there, since He is not a respecter of persons. Add that and you are closing in on getting it right.

And there you go twisting my words again. is this how you like to discuss things? Demand people repent, then twist their words? You should be ashamed of yourself
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*sighs* You obviously don't know the whole story about why I have told some to repent and still you make that judgment. That should be to your shame (Prov.18:13). And your twisting with bringing in Hitler should bring a mirror for you to look at yourself in.
I do take them literally. What is he saying? He is telling us about free will. It is better for you to pluck and eye out or cut off an arm if those things will keep you from the knowledge of truth,
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Where does it say "The knowledge of the truth" in that text? You are a literalist, don't read in anything! (See the flaws?)
And I do my best to be perfect, as he is. Although, thanks to my free will, and my sin nature. I fail to live up to that standard. Thank God he loves me in spite of myself!
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That verse says BE YE, not "do your best"! (Still don't see the flaws of literalist interpretation?).

no, I do not have time to read lengthy links. If you want to discuss. Talk to me. I am not here to read links of what other people said.
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Our "discussion" has become much like a tennis game with the same ball repeatedly bouncing back and forth. Not much happening. I'm not much into such, pal. That's why I have provided some links for those interested in my thoughts on the matter. We're simply not coming any further here, so let's call it a day and have a nice one!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#63
#63
tribesman said:
No, I currently only see YOU and your philosophical struggles and scripture wrestling in these posts. You are talking about twisting things and now begin mention Hitler and stuff. It has passed the level of acceptance.
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Dude, You might disagree with me, But to say I struggle and this being your only excuse is not debating or even discussing anything, It you you trying to through your belief down my throat. This alone should show all people your true intentions.

From my side of the table I could say the same thing right back at ya. What good would it serve for the thread?
And there's no mentioning of any foreseen merit there, since He is not a respecter of persons. Add that and you are closing in on getting it right.
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Ah but you say he is a respector of persons. For he choses some and rejects others based on nothing whatsoever. Thus he must repsect some above others. Your logic blinds you

*sighs* You obviously don't know the whole story about why I have told some to repent and still you make that judgment. That should be to your shame (Prov.18:13). And your twisting with bringing in Hitler should bring a mirror for you to look at yourself in. Where does it say "The knowledge of the truth" in that text? You are a literalist, don't read in anything! (See the flaws?)
That verse says BE YE, not "do your best"! (Still don't see the flaws of literalist interpretation?).
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1. Maybe you should look at the greek again.
2. Hitler is what I see in the God you are believing in. I see no difference. Why do you think I ran from calvanism and hate what you stand for? I don't hate you. I hate your belief system and what it makes God out to be.

You say God choses based on nothing but his will
Hitler chose based on nothing but his will

people live or die by the wills of these two and nothing else. and you say there is no similarity?

pss. our discussion? There is no discussion. It is me see it your way or else! That is not a discussion
 
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tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#64
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#64
eternally-gratefull said:
Dude, You might disagree with me, But to say I struggle and this being your only excuse is not debating or even discussing anything, It you you trying to through your belief down my throat. This alone should show all people your true intentions.
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No excuses at all. But I see where this is going and I find it not beneficial. But you can think about that first you're complaining about my twisting and then next thing you do is to twist in Hitler. Now you are talking about me "through" my belief down your throat, while at the same time you accuse me of "excusing" myself not to continue with this nonsese. Funny, I am both not willing to discuss and at the same time "through"ing my beliefs down your throat.!!!???

Ah but you say he is a respector of persons. For he choses some and rejects others based on nothing whatsoever. Thus he must repsect some above others. Your logic blinds you
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You are the one believing in foreseen merit. Not me. I do not claim to know why God chose some before others, with Luther I say that this is a mystery which we cannot fully grasp in the here and now.

Anyways, we are not coming any further here and that we disagree sharply on some things is nothing new and not needed to be repeated.

The end.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#65
#65
tribesman said:
No excuses at all. But I see where this is going and I find it not beneficial. But you can think about that first you're complaining about my twisting and then next thing you do is to twist in Hitler.
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I did not twist anything. I stated fact, and proved it. And you have not whown how I am wrong by showing why YOUR God is not like hitler.

Now you are talking about me "through" my belief down your throat, while at the same time you accuse me of "excusing" myself not to continue with this nonsese. Funny, I am both not willing to discuss and at the same time "through"ing my beliefs down your throat.!!!???
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You don't get your attitude, It had nothing to do with your leaving, It is what you say. I guess it is perfectly ok for you to say what you do? (Repent, Your not listening, Your not reasoning, for if you did you would believe like me etc etc)

You are the one believing in foreseen merit.
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What merit? I am not talking about merit, we can not merit anything. Again your twisting what I said.
Not me. I do not claim to know why God chose some before others, with Luther I say that this is a mystery which we cannot fully grasp in the here and now.
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Yet it does not have to be a mystery. God tells us, Whom he foreknew he did predestinate. And he tells us how. We are saved by faith, You put the two together and like magic, you understand the love of God.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#66
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#66
e-g, why are you continuing this nonsense? Are you out to "win" anything by that? It is just looking like pie-throwing.

Better to just knock it off.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#67
#67
tribesman said:
e-g, why are you continuing this nonsense? Are you out to "win" anything by that? It is just looking like pie-throwing.

Better to just knock it off.
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lol. doing what? I responded to what you said. Your the one who said you were going to stop, (at the very end after I already responded to most of the post) yet now three times you have answered.

I am trying to discuss. If you don't want to, why do you keep responding?
 
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selenah

Guest
#68
#68
well that went well lol
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#69
#69
It is a good question, sel, and, your answer is to read man's (and ladies) thoughts on your c.c. questions posed,talk to your church pastor, and, pray, and definitely , like right now, go to God, His Word, talk to Him for He, with your prayer to Him, will, give yo answers.

For answers, don't just seek Him, but seek Him with all your heart, milady, He will show you His great plan for you. Read Jeremiah 29: 11-13 :)

God bless, I pray you (and everyone in unbelief still of if Christ right ), if you have not yet ELECTED God as your Lord and Saviour for the rest of your life , to elect Him . You, Sel, are just like scripture says one of the few who've chosen Him, and, therefore, become God's elect.

People get idea that 'elect,' is saying 'elected,' as in 'God's elected,' and, nothing could be farther from the Truth.

God is not the Author of confusion, He is the author and finisher of our faith, as, His death on the cross is something, an act that atoned your sins, sel, for ALL. He took away the sins of ALL the world.

Anyway, go hug your cats, milady, I hope and pray you're realizing that God is with you and traching now via great teachers on c.c. like eternally grateful, hhlga, and, AnandaHya, and, I try too. The Lord leads :)
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#70
#70
eternally-gratefull said:
and in doing so make God an evil dictator and not the loving father he claims to be. [/B][/COLOR]
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In 1 John 4:8, where it says God is Love. The Greek word for love is a noun in that statement, not an adjective. God doesn't measure up to some kind of standard of someone elses. He is that very thing. If you asked me "what is love?" I might respond with "Baby, Don't hurt me. No more." It would be more accurately to respond with one word, "God."

That having been said, knowing know that God being love, isn't simply an adjective, describing him by another standard... why treat him as such? What God does, whether we like it or not, doesn't make him any more or less loving. I have learned this from reading various pieces of the Pentateuch, where God didn't do things the way I would have.

Isaiah 55:8

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.


God didn't do something your way?

Get over it.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#71
#71
GreenNnice said:
if you have not yet ELECTED God as your Lord and Saviour for the rest of your life , to elect Him . You, Sel, are just like scripture says one of the few who've chosen Him, and, therefore, become God's elect.
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Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#72
#72
jimmydiggs said:
Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
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whom He predestined has foreknowledge = everyone He predestined, for God, of course, would not want any to perish.
Whom He has chosen He's saved.

That is everyone who choose to believe when He shows up of Himself into their life. And, He shows up for ALL 'ground,', like the parable of the sower . Good ground, stony ground, thorns, the wind.
Mark 4: 3-20 .

This spreading of seed covers ALL, Jimdig, Jesus speaks of ALL walks of life, NO exclusivity :)

That none should perish, jimdig.

” the lord is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance . ” 2 Peter 3:9
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#73
#73
jimmydiggs said:
In 1 John 4:8, where it says God is Love. The Greek word for love is a noun in that statement, not an adjective. God doesn't measure up to some kind of standard of someone elses. He is that very thing. If you asked me "what is love?" I might respond with "Baby, Don't hurt me. No more." It would be more accurately to respond with one word, "God."

That having been said, knowing know that God being love, isn't simply an adjective, describing him by another standard... why treat him as such? What God does, whether we like it or not, doesn't make him any more or less loving. I have learned this from reading various pieces of the Pentateuch, where God didn't do things the way I would have.

Isaiah 55:8

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
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I tell ya. for someone who was going to stop, you sure keep on going.

God is love, what is the definition? No greater love has one who dies for the ones he love, How much more greater love than one who dies for his enemy?

God proved this when he died for his enemy, which would be every man woman and child who ever walked the earth. we were all his enemy when he died. He did not pick and chose, he died for all., We were all under adam, And he made a way for us to escape being under adam, and be adopted into his family. Thats why Gods love far surpasses our love and is incomprehensible to us, for it is far above our understanding.

God didn't do something your way?

Get over it.
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You need to get over your arrogance. God did not do it my way, and I did get over it. for am only beginning to understand the great Love God has for his creation. A love you evidently do not think exists. for there is no love in the God you want me to follow. Only a dictator. If you don't like the way I see your god. I can't help that. I do pray however, you see the God I am learning to love more and more everyday
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
#74
jimmydiggs said:
Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
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Yep, as long as there are people God knows who will still recieve his gift. He will be patient and let things go.

I am not sure what your trying to prove here. We all understand this passage
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#75
#75
Originally Posted by jimmydiggs Mark 13:20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.



Jimdig, there is a clarity of meaning in your chosen verse yoy chose to post above.....it speaks of God giving everyone a shot at choosing salvation after they are hearers of Him by His showing them ( repeatedly) to come to Him and NEVER be 'thirsty' again


'No one' has an equal exact opposite reaction of what word?
 
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selenah

Guest
#76
#76
Okay guys how about this. Predestination and free will can't be reconciled. In other words, no one can understand it. After reading the verses posted at the beginning of the thread, I really realllly don't see how limited atonement is in the Bible.
 
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shininglight

Guest
#77
#77
I think we just have to accept that there are some things about God and the Bible that we just cant fully comprehend. Man loves to dumb things down to a level that he can understand. I choose not to do that, I choose to just simply say "I dont know".
 
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feedm3

Guest
#78
#78
but we can know, Jesus said ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free - Jn 8:32. Deciding on what that truth is can be difficult when some reject a multitude of evidence that shows they are wrong. That can be done on both sides.

Jesus also said ye shall know false prophets by their fruits. So examine the message, find if it is bearing fruit or thorns, I can say now I don't believe in limited atonement, because that bears nothing but thorns. OF course the opposing side will say the same of my position, I assume.

One thing I notice about those who believe this is, no matter what evidence is shown, no matter how many passages refute them, they continue to ignore the meanings, and just keep repeating the same few passages ignoring the context. It makes me wonder if the only reason they believe this is because they feel they are chosen and cant be wrong?

It's ironic those who teach this cannot be the elect at all, because they teach a doctrine that makes God out to be the blame for all who are lost. They limit the sacrifice of Christ, change the meaning of plain words, and are prideful. Also they make Jesus incorrectly place the blame on those who are lost, he blames them for the choices they made. Yet according to them, the choice was made for them, so why is Jesus blaming them for being lost? Did he not know of limited atonement?

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

Notice all those "YE" statements? It seems Christ is placing the blame of their punishment on their choices of what they did not do? So if limited atonement is true, and if their is no freewill involved, why is Christ saying this? Is He just blaming them for what really God chose for them?

There is the thorns of their message. That is why it is prideful and arrogant, to think they were chosen above others for no other reason than God chose for them to be saved and not others. It is evil because it makes Jesus a liar, as he incorrectly places the blame of their condemnation on their choices, when in fact God chose it for them?

Those who think they are the elect of a special group of people that received limited atonement, are going to have to suffer the consequences of perverting the gospel of Christ, I hope they all repent before it's too late.
 
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selenah

Guest
#79
#79
What I was saying feedm3 is that I believe in predestination and freewill both at the same time. I just don't think the two can be fully understood, if that made any sense. I definitely think limited atonement seems to be false though.
 
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feedm3

Guest
#80
#80
selenah said:
What I was saying feedm3 is that I believe in predestination and freewill both at the same time. I just don't think the two can be fully understood, if that made any sense. I definitely think limited atonement seems to be false though.
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Yes it makes sense to me. I believe in predestination as well. God has predestined those who will choose to accept the Gospel. He knew we would need a savior before the world began and purposed redemption through His son, in who he sent with the fullness of times came -Gal 4:4

Now we have a choice upon hearing the gospel, accept, or reject. It is by the gospel God calls us (draws us), because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation unto ALL that believe, not just an elect - Rom 1:16

All who accept, are predestined to be God's children and to enter eternal life. He lets us choose, because what we choose shows where are heart is, in the flesh, or in the Spirit.

Those who reject, will be by nature the children of wrath, because they despised the Spirit of grace, the fault then is our own, not God's. Which is why Matt 25:40-f. is a just punishment, because by their own choice, they decided not to walk according to the will of God.

Thanks for clarifying your position, and like I said, it makes sense.
 
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