Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
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[h=3]Revelation 20:10[/h]And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night "forever and ever".
[h=3]Revelation 20:7-10[/h]And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
[h=3]Matthew 25:46[/h]And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Do you want to change the context "forever and ever" and "eternal punishment" in the Holy Scriptures?
or bring me up verses that say specifically "hell is NOT eternal"?
I wanna see words like NOT,NEVER, or any negative words?
Ok God bless you brother
[h=3]Revelation 20:7-10[/h]And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
[h=3]Matthew 25:46[/h]And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Do you want to change the context "forever and ever" and "eternal punishment" in the Holy Scriptures?
or bring me up verses that say specifically "hell is NOT eternal"?
I wanna see words like NOT,NEVER, or any negative words?
Ok God bless you brother
Then I would ask of you what is so hard about this...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Christ was the first to be resurrected from the dead to life. He had life before but He voluntarily layed it down for us...
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
And became the first to be resurrected from the dead...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Christ was the first to be resurrected from the dead to life. He had life before but He voluntarily layed it down for us...
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
And became the first to be resurrected from the dead...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
An unquenchable fire does not burn forever. It burns wityhout anyone quenching it, without anyone putting it out. From Merriam-Websters dictionary...
[h=2]Definition of QUENCH[/h]transitive verb
1
a: put out, extinguish
b: to put out the light or fire of <quench glowing coals with water>
c: to cool (as heated metal) suddenly by immersion (as in oil or water)
d: to cause to lose heat or warmth <you have quenched the warmth of France toward you — Alfred Tennyson>
2
a: to bring (something immaterial) to an end typically by satisfying, damping, cooling, or decreasing <a rational understanding of the laws of nature can quench impossible desires — Lucius Garvin> <the praise that quenches all desire to read the book — T. S. Eliot>
b: to terminate by or as if by destroying : eliminate <the Commonwealth party quenched a whole generation of play-acting — Margery Bailey> <quench a rebellion>
c: to relieve or satisfy with liquid <quenched his thirst at a wayside spring>
[h=2]Definition of QUENCH[/h]transitive verb
1
a: put out, extinguish
b: to put out the light or fire of <quench glowing coals with water>
c: to cool (as heated metal) suddenly by immersion (as in oil or water)
d: to cause to lose heat or warmth <you have quenched the warmth of France toward you — Alfred Tennyson>
2
a: to bring (something immaterial) to an end typically by satisfying, damping, cooling, or decreasing <a rational understanding of the laws of nature can quench impossible desires — Lucius Garvin> <the praise that quenches all desire to read the book — T. S. Eliot>
b: to terminate by or as if by destroying : eliminate <the Commonwealth party quenched a whole generation of play-acting — Margery Bailey> <quench a rebellion>
c: to relieve or satisfy with liquid <quenched his thirst at a wayside spring>
Dan,, are you gonna twist it,,, eternal fire seems to me that it would be a fire that never goes out. Isn't that what you propose is the punishment for Satan, his angels, and all the unsaved humans???????
You know darn well it is!
The Bible indeed says that Sodom & Gommorah were destroyed with 'eternal fire". Yet we both know, those 2 cities are not burning nor smoking to day.
So,, we can reason that it is not the fire itself that is eternal,, but the consequences of that fire. because we all KNOW that Sodom & Gommorah are not burning right now. There is no smoke nor fire coming from either city.
So,, how you gonna make a knot out of that? Shoot.
You know darn well it is!
The Bible indeed says that Sodom & Gommorah were destroyed with 'eternal fire". Yet we both know, those 2 cities are not burning nor smoking to day.
So,, we can reason that it is not the fire itself that is eternal,, but the consequences of that fire. because we all KNOW that Sodom & Gommorah are not burning right now. There is no smoke nor fire coming from either city.
So,, how you gonna make a knot out of that? Shoot.
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Sometimes the 1611 KJV uses words that don't mean what we think they mean in 2013...
The Diaglott renders this verse as such...
Jud 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the about them cities, the like to them manner having committed fornication, and having gone away after flesh of another, are placed before an example, of fire age-lasting retributive justice are undergoing.
The word Aionios can be rendered age-lasting, see Bullingers appendix #151. Either it meant that or it is still burning today. If those two cities are burning today, a picture will do.
The Diaglott renders this verse as such...
Jud 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the about them cities, the like to them manner having committed fornication, and having gone away after flesh of another, are placed before an example, of fire age-lasting retributive justice are undergoing.
The word Aionios can be rendered age-lasting, see Bullingers appendix #151. Either it meant that or it is still burning today. If those two cities are burning today, a picture will do.
D
Yes, that is what the words mean. I have no issues with that. What I am asking you, is why would Jude mention eternal fire in the first century A.D. when Sodom and Gomorrah were burned thousands of years earlier and at the time Jude wrote this, the fires had burned out long ago. So he must be implying something about this.
What do you think Jude is implying by saying "eternal fire" when the fires had burned out long ago?
L
If that's your understanding on the term firstborn, i.e, firstly resurrected. then surely you should explain about Elijah who ressurected the son of zarepath, Elisha who resurrected the son of the Shunammite, A dead man comes back to life by being touched to the Elisha's bones (from 1 and 2 Kings) and Jesus resurrected a son at Nain (Luke), Jairus' daughter (matthew), Lazarus (John), Many saints resurrected (matthew 27).
To me, the title Christ to be Firstborn, is just as also used in Colossians 1, that He holds higher rank over all created things, most exalted one, pre eminent and head above all others.
To me, the title Christ to be Firstborn, is just as also used in Colossians 1, that He holds higher rank over all created things, most exalted one, pre eminent and head above all others.
I just told you... it is the consequence of the fire that is eternal. I know you have had camp fires. What happens to the fire if nobody puts anymore wood on it? it goes out after it burns up the wood. It is not quenched. it burns until it goes out on it's on. If someone threw a bucket of water on it,, you could say that the fire was quenched,, that is,, put out,, or extinguished.
The Lake of fire will consume the wicked and turn them into ashes. The lake of fire will burn itself out, just as the "eternal fire" went out that destroyed Sodo & Gommorah.
The Lake of fire will consume the wicked and turn them into ashes. The lake of fire will burn itself out, just as the "eternal fire" went out that destroyed Sodo & Gommorah.
C
Hi Michael,
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The way I understand this is that they were not destroyed with "eternal fire" but that they were placed under (G5254) the punishment (verdict (G1349)) of everlasting (perpetual) fire.
It would seem to me, by the previous verse, that they will be judged under that sentencing. Also understanding that during that great Day they will undergo the wrath of God, the fire of His jealousy (Eze 22:31, 38:19, Zep 1:18, etc...). Again, God's anger and the resulting separation from Him caused by that anger, is the symbolic fire which shall be known to those in outer darkness.
Where God is not, neither is there Love, peace, comfort, Light, hope, life, and all which man considers an attribute of God. Can you see that the torment is the everlasting destruction from God's presence.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The way I understand this is that they were not destroyed with "eternal fire" but that they were placed under (G5254) the punishment (verdict (G1349)) of everlasting (perpetual) fire.
It would seem to me, by the previous verse, that they will be judged under that sentencing. Also understanding that during that great Day they will undergo the wrath of God, the fire of His jealousy (Eze 22:31, 38:19, Zep 1:18, etc...). Again, God's anger and the resulting separation from Him caused by that anger, is the symbolic fire which shall be known to those in outer darkness.
Where God is not, neither is there Love, peace, comfort, Light, hope, life, and all which man considers an attribute of God. Can you see that the torment is the everlasting destruction from God's presence.
D
I agree. An eternal fire, by definition is one that burns for ages and ages. It is not a fire that goes out in an hour or even a day. Here is how other translations have put it:
KJV "7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
NASB "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh,are exhibited as an example in under going the punishment of eternal fire."
NLT "And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment."
NIV "7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
It seems to me that they did not get annihilated by an eternal fire, but were punished with out end by an eternal fire.
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D
OK, so you point to Sodom and Gomorrah and say the fire burned out, and Jude called that an eternal fire, so therefore an eternal fire burns out quickly but kills. Is that what you are saying in a nutshell?
Do you see how Christians might see this as a connection to hell? ..esp. when that passage never says they died from an eternal fire but were punished by an eternal fire? The passage says they are (present tense) an example of suffering the vengeance(punishment) of eternal fire.
It never says Sodom and Gomorrah was burned by an eternal fire.
You know the Bible teaches that Jesus will raise the wicked. That satan will marshal them to encompass the Holy City Jerusalem.
That God causes fire to fall on them and devour them.
The Saints are safe inside the Holy City, while the wicked are outside being reduced to ashes.
After the fire consumes all there is to consume,,,, until there is nothing left but ash,,,then,, the fire will go out.
Then God will make a New Earth.
He will do that, while we are safe inside the Holy City,, watching it all!
God's plan is to isolate, eradicate, and blot out sin and sinners from existence forever!
if you think God's plan is to keep sin alive so that His universe is always tainted with evil... then you are sadly mistaken.
That God causes fire to fall on them and devour them.
The Saints are safe inside the Holy City, while the wicked are outside being reduced to ashes.
After the fire consumes all there is to consume,,,, until there is nothing left but ash,,,then,, the fire will go out.
Then God will make a New Earth.
He will do that, while we are safe inside the Holy City,, watching it all!
God's plan is to isolate, eradicate, and blot out sin and sinners from existence forever!
if you think God's plan is to keep sin alive so that His universe is always tainted with evil... then you are sadly mistaken.
The wicked are destroyed. Some folks will burn up quickly and die. Others will linger on longer, depending on their sins. Satan, will burn longer than anybody. He has inflenced everybody to commit sins. So Satan will burn for quite sometime before death brings an end to his punishment.
So don't think that folsk are gettin away with anything.. Each wicked person will pay for each and evey sin they have comitted.
Then,,, they die,,, Psalms 37:20 says,,, "But the wicked shall perish, the enemies of the Lord,, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away." And they will be no more.