Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

[FactsPlease]

Why don't those churches agree when filled with 'the Holy Ghost'?

 

[FactsPlease]

To do what?

To help people understand what the Bible REALLY says- and to learn!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I sure am! Are you possessed by the Holy Ghost, 1/3 of God?

I submitted myself to All of God who is my Father, God, Lord, Saviour and I am filled with His Spirit.

 

[FactsPlease]

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Why don't those churches agree when filled with 'the Holy Ghost'?

For the most part they do agree with one another but differ on insignificant, not Salvation related issues.

But on Salvation related issues they do agree 100%

 

[FactsPlease]

The scriptures speak for themselves.

 

[FactsPlease]

For the most part they do agree with one another but differ on insignificant, not Salvation related issues.

But on Salvation related issues they do agree 100%

So you'd like to believe.
I have talked endlessly with them and found out different.
How (to you) is one saved?

 

[TheLearner]

.



Jesus is a "begotten" son. (John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, Heb
11:17, 1John 4:9) which is quite different than a son who never had a
beginning via birth.

However; there is a way to exist prior to one's birth.

For example: Hebrews 7:9-10 says Levi paid a tenth with Abraham before
he was born because he existed in Abraham's loins all along.

Carry that thought to Micah 5:2 where it says:

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of
Judah, from you one will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth
are from long ago, from the days of eternity."

The Hebrew word translated "goings forth" pertain to posterity, i.e. family
descent. In other words: though Jesus was not yet born of God in Abraham's
day; he could legitimately say he pre-existed Abraham because he was in
God's loins, so to speak. In point of fact, 1John 3:9 speaks of God's
genetics. So the thing I'm talking about isn't some sort of fantasy brought
on by the chemo therapy I'm currently undergoing for esophageal cancer.

FAQ: Why are so many Christians confused about Christ's origin?

REPLY: No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the
Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
(Matt 11:27)
_

I recently read the above in a cultic journal that denies the deity of Christ.

 

[TheLearner]

Hello P.E.

I have recently showed, by original source documentation that the subject is neither originating with SDA or JW, neither SDA or JW only doctrine. I would ask that you please refrain from attempting to alter the subject from Michael in scripture to denomination.

I have given the reply to Hebrews 1, not ignored it, as some seem to think.

Hebrews 1 is not against the position of the OP, but for it.

Hebrews 1:1-3, reveal that the Son is the highest messenger of the Father, and eternal and uncreated:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1:4,7,14 all reveal that there are other messengers, which are created. These are in the office or position as the very "fellows" (Heb. 1:9) of the Son, who also has the position or office of messenger along with them.

The context of Hebrews 1:4,7,14 are of the created ("maketh") messengers ("angels"), not of the uncreated and eternal angel (Messenger) of the Father, known as the Son.

The word "angels" only means (in English, Hebrew or koine Greek, messengers, ambassador or that which carries a message from or for another). Uncreated and created are not part of the definition of the word. Context determines any further identification of the being, etc, spoken of.

In the case of the Son, He is the "angel (messenger) of the covenant", Malachi 3:1, and is identified as such throughout scripture. Since He is an "angel" (messenger), and He who is the "express image" of the Father, He is the Highest Messenger, for who else can it be questioned, Who is like unto God? The devil, in each case, when facing the Son, whether in Daniel, Zechariah, Jude or Revelation or elsewhere, must always battle that question, "Who is like unto God?", while the devil "Who is like unto the Beast?" (Genesis 3:1, Revelation 13:4).

"The word "angels" only means (in English, Hebrew or koine Greek, messengers, ambassador or that which carries a message from or for another). Uncreated and created are not part of the definition of the word. Context determines any further identification of the being, etc, spoken of. " is a well known word study fallacy. The rest looks ok to me.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

I recently read the above in a cultic journal that denies the deity of Christ.

Curiously, offshoots like the Jehovah's Witnesses have a better
understanding of the Word's humanness than the average rank and file pew
warmer.
_

 

[TheLearner]

You actually line up with the most authentic Greek we have: Read Verse 3 of my attachment:

no speaking in tongues bro, lol

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

So you'd like to believe.
I have talked endlessly with them and found out different.
How (to you) is one saved?

In simple terms it's BELIEVING in Jesus Christ.
Yes, there's parameters about how God gave us the ability to have Faith and Believe and deeper explanation, but in the simplest terms it BELIEVING in Jesus about Who He claims to be.

 

[TheLearner]

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560), born Philipp Schwartzerdt, was a German reformer, collaborator with Martin Luther, the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation, intellectual leader of the Lutheran Reformation, and an influential designer of educational systems. He stands next to Luther and Calvin as a reformer, theologian, and molder of Protestantism. Along with Luther, he is the primary founder of Lutheranism.

[Latin] In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius, editus a Philippo Melanthone, Anno 1543. - http://books.google.com/books?id=1llSAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

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"... [Page 122] Eadem de Gog & Magog apud Ezechielem & in Apocalypsi di[c]untur. Ezechiel ait, God & Magog, factis ingentibus vastationibus, tandem in montibus Israel perituros esse.​

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Esti de iudicio ultimo Christi intelligi potest, tamen arbitror significari praelia quae piis erunt in hac ultima mundi senecta cum ..., qui vincentur in montibus Israel, id est, seu in locis ecclesiae in qua uere sonat Euangelium, vel a populus uere inuocantibus deum in fide filii eius Iesu Christi. Non enim vincetur ... nisi per filium dei dimicantem pro sua ecclesia, ut infra clare inquit Daniel. capite 12. Stabit Michael, is est, Christus dux magnus pro filius populi. Sed & apud Daniele & apud Ezechielem magne vastationes denunciantur, quas ut deus mitiget, toto pectore petamus. ..." [Page 122]​

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"... [Page 136] Porro hic locus admoneat nos de praesentia Christi, Quod videlicet filius Dei semper assuerit Patribus quodque vere nunc quoque Ecclesiae adsit, exaudiat & gubernet inuocantes ipsum, Sicut dicit in Euangelio, Ecce, ego vobiscum sum, &c.​

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Item, Ubicunque duo aut tres congregati sunt in nomine meo, ibi sum in medio eorum. [Page 136-137] Item, Ascendit, ut set dona hominibus, &c.​

Gene. 48. inquit Iacob de Christo, Angelus qui eripuit me ex omni malo, benedicat Pueris, &c.​

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Et Joh. 1. dicitur, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt, &c​

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Et hic interest colloquio Angelorum apud Danielem.​

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Et Paulus inquit, Omnes bibebant de spirituali petra eos comitante, Petra autem erat Christus.​

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Sic nos statuere debemus adesse Christum, exaudire, iuuare, & gubernare nos, Idque vocat scriptura regnu Christi: sed infirmitas humanae mentis non potest sic intelligere Regum Christi cogitat de eo, tanquam de absente: non agente aliquid nobiscum. Sed his tenebris humanae rationis repugnandu est, & iuxta testimonia pro millionum, &c iuxta haec exempla credendum, Quod vere adsit nobis, exaudiat, & iuuet inuocantes ipsum.​

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Haec breviter adieci de Interprete vaticinii, que vocat Palmoi, id est, admirabilem quendam, sicut alibi Christus vocatur admirabilis consiliarius. [Page 137-138]​

Est & illud considerandum, quod adese filius Dei, cum sit mentio summae calamitatis, ut significet se in illa iPsalms calamitate futurum esse in excubiis, Sicut infra inquit, In illo tempore Michael, qui stat pro Filiis populi, &c. Haec est magna consolatio, praesertim hoc tempore, scire, quod Christus sit in excubiis pro nobis. ..." [Pages 136-138]​

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"... [Page 214] Alii aliter de sententia huius capitis disputant, sed iudico hanc esse simplicissma enarroationem. Adfuit autem bono angel dux Michale, quem cum him & infra uocet ducem po- [Page 214-215] puli dei, intelligo esse ipsum filium dei, λόγοις, ut a Ioanne nominatur. Hunc ducem & supra scribit interesse colloquio in capite octavo, ubi angelus ab illo domino petit interpretationem visionis.​

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Adesse cum & in hoc colloquio, ac Danielis labra attingere, & consternatum recreare, adparet. Semper enim adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae, eamque, defendisse contra furorem diaboli, certum est. Ideo Ioannes inquit, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt. Loquitur enim non tantum de conditione rerum, sed etiam de gloriosis liberationibus, ecclesiae. Texit populum in mari rubro, & in deserto, Defendit Iosue, Gedeonem, Samuelem, Davidem, Eliam, Elisaeum, & alios fideles gubernatores sui populi.​

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Ideo inquit Iacob, Benedicat his pueris angelus, qui me eripuit ex omnibus malis. Haec uerba conueniunt ad filium dei, qui uere liberat ab omnibus malis, uidelicet a peccato, ab ira dei, a morte aeterna, ab insidiis diaboli. Non enim sine eaussa nominatim dicitur, ab omnibus malus. Haec gloria non potest tribui ministris angelus, qui etiamsi protegunt corpora piorum, tame nec peccatum nec aeternam mortem tollere possunt. ..." [Pages 214-215]​

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"... [Page 370] TERTIA consolatio, quod in his tantis periculis habitura sit ecclesia defensorem filium dei. Ideo hic in textu dicitur, Illo tempore stabit Micael dux magnus pro filiis populi sui. ​

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Hac voce omnes pii se confirment, quam quidem & Christus ipse nobis inculcat, inquiens, Ego vobiscum sum usque ad consummationem mundi. In tanta dissipatione, in tanti aerumnis, pii videntur deserti a deo. ..." [Page 370]​

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"... [Page 371] Dixi autem supra, semper adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae suae. Ideo hic vocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei. Adpellatio nota est. Quis sicut deus, id est, quantus est hic, qui est sicut deus, qui est imago aeterni patris, potens, misericors, liberator, vindex. ..." [Page 371]​

Dude, what did I say about not speaking in tongues?

 

[FactsPlease]

In simple terms it's BELIEVING in Jesus Christ.
Yes, there's parameters about how God gave us the ability to have Faith and Believe and deeper explanation, but in the simplest terms it BELIEVING in Jesus about Who He claims to be.

He didn't claim to be God nor 1/3 God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

no speaking in tongues bro, lol

That's a different twist to the meaning of Hebrews 1:3

 

[Nehemiah6]

I recently read the above in a cultic journal that denies the deity of Christ.

The quickest way to determine if someone is in a cult is to simply ask him or her "Do you believe that Jesus is fully God?"

If the answer is "No" then you are looking at an "antichrist" according to the apostle John. That is how serious it is. John says (2 John 1:10,11) we are to not even bid that person "Godspeed" else we become partaker of their evil deeds. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine*, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

*The "doctrine of Christ" begins with the fact that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16). This is blatantly denied by the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christadelphians, Gnostics, Muslims, unbelieving Jews and several others.

 

[Nehemiah6]

He didn't claim to be God nor 1/3 God.

Here is an example of an "antichrist". Jesus very definitely claimed to be God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

He didn't claim to be God nor 1/3 God.

Read John 8:58 it's mentioned in my attachment:

 

[TheLearner]

.



That's not a very good proof text for your purpose. It's just a reiteration of
John 3:34, John 10:38, and Col 2:9 etc. And besides, it's not all that difficult
to show that Jesus is biologically related to David, and from thence to Eve,
and to Adam and the dust with which Adam was constructed.

It's been my experience that most Christians are content with Jesus being
fully God but not all that content with him being fully Man because that
drags Adam into the picture and the ramifications associated with the
forbidden fruit incident. It also implies that the Word of John 1:1-3 created
his own human self. Although I don't see that as a problem; others do.
_

Matthew 1:1
The Family History of Jesus the Messiah
This is the family history of Jesus the Messiah. He came from the family of David, who was from the family of Abraham.

Luke 1:26-27
The Virgin Mary
During Elizabeth’s sixth month of pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to a virgin girl who lived in Nazareth, a town in Galilee. She was engaged to marry a man named Joseph from the family of David. Her name was Mary.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 1:32
He will be great. People will call him the Son of the Most High God, and the Lord God will make him king like his ancestor David.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 1:69
He has given us a powerful Savior from the family of his servant David.

 

[TheLearner]

The very names are different. Mi-cha-el literally means "who is like God?' And the name Jesus could be translated to "God is salvation".

It is true that Michael is the Commander of God's army as He reveals himself to Joshua son of Nun in the Old Testament.

Michael was not as high ranking as Lucifer was until Lucifer rebelled because of God's plan for man to be saved and God chose to be born in Human form. Lucifer rebelled by saying that He would not serve God.

Thus the rebellion and Michael fighting in God's name. That's how Michael became the Commander of God's armies. Don't they say 9 Choirs of angels? Or is it 7? I'm not sure. Michael was one of the Archangels and they are one of the lower ranks. But God glorified Michael for championing God's will and showing obedience to God by making Michael commander of the Heavenly armies (All the choirs of angels).

Jesus is God. Word Incarnate. There is no name that can equal that of Jesus'. All angels including Michael are God's to command. So many things can lead to this conclusion. Like Jesus having a physical human body. Jesus is Man and God. Angels are spiritual beings and they have no body, let alone a human body like our Lord Jesus does.

The first commandment applies here. "I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other Gods before me." Michael is not God. Jesus is God. That's the difference. Careful you all. Know the God you worship and worship only Him. God bless.

"From the Hebrew name מִיכָאֵל (Mikha'el) meaning "who is like God?". This is a rhetorical question, implying no person is like God. Michael is one of the archangels in Hebrew tradition and the only one identified as an archangel in the Bible. In the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament he is named as a protector of Israel. In the Book of Revelation in the New Testament he is portrayed as the leader of heaven's armies in the war against Satan, and is thus considered the patron saint of soldiers in Christianity. " https://www.behindthename.com/name/michael