Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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No, the Bible makes a distinction between the Uncreated Angel (Messnger) of the LORD (Father) and the created angels (like Gabriel, and the angelic hosts).
There is no such entity as an "uncreated angel", which is just a figment of your imagination. The "Angel of the LORD" in the OT is none other than Almighty God (Exodus 3 and other passages). No man has seen God the Father at any time. It is the eternal Word (also called the Angel of the LORD) who communicated with men and was also seen by them,

And all other angels are created beings (ministering spirits).However out of all those angels, at least a third are evil angels. And it is only evil angels and Satan who would try to deceive people (such as yourself) that Jesus is Michael, and Michael is Jesus. I am quite sure that Michael the archangel is thoroughly disgusted with such blasphemous nonsense.
 
Oct 28, 2022
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Thank you.

Fortunately, I've kept up enough that I've only had to skim back through to page 4 to find myself caught up. But I haven't run into anything that definitively equates the Angel of the LORD, or rather an 'unnamed' angel whose only designation is the definite article "the,' with Michael, who I believe to be 'an' angel' however arch-. It is my position that all angels (other than the Angel of the LORD) either were specified by name or separated themselves from the LORD by either referring or deferring to Him.

Imo, the strongest argument for Michael being Jesus is the meaning of His name, "Who is like God," However, in times that Jesus manifests Himself, He does so 'in the likeness of a man,' for example, wrestling w/ Jacob, while those that see Him know He is much more than just a man. Indeed, He is referred to as "the," or more specifically in Daniel 10:5 "'a certain' man dressed in linen.' On the other hand,

Michael and Gabriel are introduced exclusively by name, and by 'the man in linen' in Michael's case of which is in the context of the man explaining to Daniel his, the man's, account of his fight against the Prince of Persia (what's his name?), the Prince of Greece (what's his name?) and Michael (which logically follows to be called the Prince of Daniel's nation). Would it not also be logical to assume that the "Prince of Peace" is Prince of All (considering He shall bring peace to all heaven and earth)?
Have you studied the unbreakable parallelism in Rev. 12?
 

The_Watchers_2017

Well-known member
Jun 20, 2022
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No, it isn't. That's a myth perpetuated by those who have not done an actual collation between the several texts. The NT quotes the OT, as does 1,2,3 pseudopigraphical 'Enoch'.
Look, you might fool some here but I know the history from before the beginning of Earth, to the end of the New Testament going into John's personal Disciples throughout the Church Father's until present day.

You might enjoy lying to yourself but I take offense to other's ignorance, especially when they are addressing me.
 

The_Watchers_2017

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Jun 20, 2022
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Something else, you follow the SDA traditions claiming they exemplify the example of Jews and Jesus.

You are a vegan but as a Jew, Yeshua, observed Holy Days like Passover and the others. But those included killing a LAMB and EATING it.

Then we know Paul, who claimed to be Pharisee of Pharisees and he claimed what he wrote came directly from God. Look at my attachment:

Basically what I am saying, your beliefs are no different than a pagan and you have nothing to offer on these Forums.
 

Attachments

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Have you studied the unbreakable parallelism in Rev. 12?
Dan 12: 1 At that time, Michael the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Rev 12: 7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

...and the dragon commences to persecute the woman...

Is this the parallelism you refer to?
Do you not consider the woman that gave birth to the male child, Israel? Michael throws the dragon to the out of heaven to earth and he commences to persecute the woman who is nourished for 1260 days (Rev 12: 6) 30 days later (1290) the aod is set up (Daniel 12:11)
until the time an angel with the keys to the Abyss binds him for the millennium (Rev 20:1) 45 days from there (Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. -Daniel 12:12).

What am I missing?
 
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The "Angel of the LORD" in the OT is none other than Almighty God (Exodus 3 and other passages).
So, since this "Almighty God" is called the "Angel of the LORD", is he created or uncreated and eternal?
 
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Is this the parallelism you refer to?
No, not comparing Daniel 12 to Revelation 12. Just the internal parallelism in Revelation 12 itself.

The Revelation 12 Texts:

[A1]

Revelation 12:1 KJB - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:​
Revelation 12:2 KJB - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.​
Revelation 12:3 KJB - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.​
Revelation 12:4 KJB - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​
Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.​

[B1]

Revelation 12:6 KJB - And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.​

[C1]

Revelation 12:7 KJB - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,​
Revelation 12:8 KJB - And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.​
Revelation 12:9 KJB - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

[D1]

Revelation 12:10 KJB - And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.​
[D2]
Revelation 12:11 KJB - And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.​

[C2]

Revelation 12:12 KJB - Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

[B2]

Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.​
Revelation 12:14 KJB - And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.​
Revelation 12:15 KJB - And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.​
Revelation 12:16 KJB - And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.​

[A2]

Revelation 12:17 KJB - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

Notice the chiastic structure.

[A1] Revelation 12:1-5 KJB = Woman, Child and Dragon​

[B1] Revelation 12:6 KJB = Woman in Wilderness for 1,260 days [years]​

[C1] Revelation 12:7-9 KJB = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven​
[D1] Revelation 12:10 KJB = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory​
[D2] Revelation 12:11 KJB = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him​
[C2] Revelation 12:12 KJB = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth fights against Jesus' body​
[B2] Revelation 12:13-16 KJB = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260 days [years]]​

[A2] Revelation 12:17 KJB = Woman, her Seed and Dragon​

An example of another parallelism within the greater:

Revelation 12:7 KJB - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

[A1] Michael (symbolic name) – Leader​
[B1] his angels – Followers​
[A2] Dragon (symbolic name) – Leader​
[B2] his angels - Followers​
 
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Is this the parallelism you refer to?
Looking at these two combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon” (Who is like unto the Beast?), followed with “Michael” (Who is like unto God?):

[1] “the Dragon” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Dragon” - Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB​
“serpent” - Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB​
“Devil” - Revelation 12:9,12 KJB​
“Satan” - Revelation 12:9 KJB​
“accuser of our brethren” - Revelation 12:10 KJB​
“his” [angels] - Revelation 12:7,9 KJB​
Compare also:​
“neither was their place found any more in heaven” - Revelation 12:8 KJB​
“was cast out … cast out into the earth” - Revelation 12:9 KJB​
“is cast down” - Revelation 12:10 KJB​
[2] “Michael” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Michael” - Revelation 12:7 KJB​
“Lamb” - Revelation 12:11 KJB​
“child” - Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB​
“man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” - Revelation 12:5,13 KJB​
“seed” - Revelation 12:17 KJB​
“it” - Revelation 12:4 KJB​
“Jesus” [even the “testimony” of] - Revelation 12:17 KJB​
“Christ” - Revelation 12:10,17​
“his” [angels] – Revelation 12:7 KJB​

Compare also:​
“caught up unto God, and to his throne.” - Revelation 12:5 KJB​
“rule all” - Revelation 12:5 KJB​
After considering these things, let some questions be asked, and fill them in by the texts of the King James Bible themselves:

Who is the “Dragon” of Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB?

Who is the “serpent” of Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB?

Who is the “devil” of Revelation 12:9,12 KJB?

Who is the “Satan” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who is the “accuser of the brethren” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who was “cast out” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who was “cast down” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who is the one which “cast out of his mouth water as a flood” of Revelation 12:15,16 KJB?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Does the fallen arch-rebel have many designations, KJB?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-rebel's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Who opposes the “Dragon”?

Who opposes the “serpent”?

Who opposes the “devil”?

Who opposes the “Satan”?

Who opposes the “accuser of the brethren”?

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that "Dragon"?

Revelation 12 KJB:

Is there a “woman” and a “child” and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:1-6 KJB?​

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” [1,260 days; aka “1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time”; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:6 KJB?​

Is there a “war” in “Heaven” between “Michael” [and “his angels”] and “the Dragon” [and “his angels”], wherein “the Dragon and his angels” were “cast out” and “neither was their place found any more in heaven” in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB?​

Did the “power of his [the Father's] Christ” on earth gain the “victory” and “salvation” over and from the “accuser of our brethren” in Revelation 12:10 KJB?​
Did “they” on earth also “overcome” “him” [the accuser] by the “blood of the lamb” and by “the word of their testimony” in Revelation 12:11 KJB?​

Is there “rejoic[ing]” in the “Heavens” for them “that dwell in them”, but yet “woe” to the “inhabiters of the earth and of the sea” for the “Dragon” being cast out of “Heaven” is now “come down” unto them and was full of “wrath” and “persecuted” the Church in Revelation 12:12-13 KJB?​

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a time, and times, and half a time ” [1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time' aka 1,260 days [“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”]; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:14 KJB?​

Is there a “woman” and the “remnant” of “her seed” [aka “child”] and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:15-17 KJB?​

Revelation 12 KJB

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that Michael"?

Who opposes the one which has the True “testimony"?

Who opposes the “Christ”, even "Jesus Christ"?

Who opposes the “child", even the "man child" and "it"?

Who opposes the “lamb”?

Who opposes “Michael”?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-defender's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Does the Son of God have many designations?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Who is the one who has a “testimony” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the one to “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the one “caught up” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the “seed” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the “child” and “man child” and “it” of Revelation 12:2,4,5,13 KJB?

Who is the “Christ” and “Jesus Christ” of Revelation 12:10,17 KJB?

Who is the “lamb” of Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Who is “Michael” of Revelation 12:7 KJB?

If the structure is truly Chiastic in its nature, then can the identification of the beings therein ever be broken [even according to John 10:35 KJB]?

If the Church is the Woman on the earth, and she the Body in Revelation 12:11-13 KJB and the Dragon fought against her, who then is the Heavenly Head in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB, who the Dragon warred against there?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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No worries.

I am simply asking if you see the connection to Jacob and Judges based upon the question asked in each.

Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

If you see the connection, do you also see the connection to the following:

Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The words in Judges 13:18, "secret", and in Isaiah 9:6 "Wonderful"?
Also here:

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

Which mystery Christ reveals to Nicodemus "the teacher of Israel, " here:

John 3:13-15
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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If you read chapter ten of Daniel, the identity of Michael is revealed.

Daniel converses with his Lord as shown below.

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was standing in my way for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

In the verse above Michael is identified as one of the chief princes.

The human like figure earlier in this chapter is called, "my Lord", by Daniel.

Michael is but one of the angelic beings, princes, and definitely not the Lord.
Is Christ designated a Prince and Saviour Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And He being one of the chief Princes, cant that be a reference to the Trinity, for God is a Triune God. I mean how many chief princes are there ?
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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I conferred with a native German speaker (a Christian). He clearly told me, that Luther stated that Michael is Christ. Google translate, does not do a good job with old German (and some Dutch) mix.
Other sound men in the Faith taught that Michael was Christ, John Gill a noted baptist wrote of Dan 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up,.... The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ; who is as God, as the name signifies, truly and really God, and equal in nature, power, and glory, to his divine Father: "he shall stand up"; which is not to be understood of his incarnation, or manifestation in the flesh, for this refers to times long after that; yet neither of his personal appearance in the clouds of heaven, and standing upon the earth in the latter day; but of his spiritual presence among his people, and protection of them, and continuance with them: this respects the spiritual reigns of Christ, the Lamb's standing upon Mount Zion, and the 144,000 with him, Revelation 14:1, and this will be at that time, when the eastern antichrist, the Turk, will be destroyed; for the words are closely connected with the last verse of the preceding chapter; and when also the western antichrist, the pope of Rome, will come to his end; for, as they rose, so they will fall, much about the same time; and then Christ will rise and stand up, as the glorious Head of the church, and as a triumphant Conqueror over all his enemies, and take to himself his great power, and reign, and that kingdom which of right belongs to him.
The great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people; the King of kings, and Lord of lords, the Prince of the kings of the earth; great in his person, and in his office; great in dignity, power, and authority; who always did, and ever will, stand on the side of the true Israel of God: he espoused their cause very early; he wrought out salvation for them in time; he intercedes for them now in heaven, and will appear to be their patron and defender against all their enemies in the latter day: here it seems to have special regard to the people of the Jews, Daniel's people; whom Christ shall appear unto, and for, in an eminent manner, to convert and save them, help and assist them, protect and defend them.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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No, the Bible makes a distinction between the Uncreated Angel (Messnger) of the LORD (Father) and the created angels (like Gabriel, and the angelic hosts). That is the purpose of Hebrews 1. Yet, the created messengers (heavenly or earrthly) are the "fellows" of the uncreated Messenger (Son).

I have not twisted anything, but simply provided the texts (like Malachi 3:1) that show that the Son has the office of "Angel" (Messenger). It is not derogatory, nor blasphemous to repeat this from scripture. It is not heresy, but accepted by all of Christianity from the earliest post-apostolic (12 Apostles) times. I provided those citations also. Would you like for me to post them individually here for you to see?

Hebrews 1 is not against the OP, nor myself, but in full agreement, for as the Son is the "Angel (Messenger) of the LORD (Father)" does not make Him a created being, so too that the Son is the "Apostle" (one Sent) of the Father, does not make Him a created being. To speak for and to be sent by someone else, is simply stating something about an office, place or position, not a nature.

You do not accept what the word "angel" means. I provided the scriptural defintion, and the definition held by all of Christianity in the past. Your present and private definition excludes "office", "position", and substitutes in their place "nature".

Gabriel is indeed an "angel", but this says nothing about his nature, but rather his office, or position as given by God. It means he is a messenger. Other context dictates whether or not he is a created being, such as when persons attempt bowing down to him, he refuses, and says to worship God alone. That indicates this "angel" (messenger) is a created being.

Yet, when we see such words associated with the Son, like "Angel of the LORD", etc, the context simply refers to His coming on behalf of the Father's will, to say what the Father gave Him to say. It does not indicate Him to be a created being. It simply means He is a messenger for another. The context surrounding those passages, reveal that the Son accepts worship due to Deity. This means He is an uncreated being, but still a messenger. The two things are not exclusive, but reveal differing things about the person involved.

For instance, I can say that I am both a person of mankind (nature), and an 'angel' (a position of office, place or responsibility, a messenger for another, as John the Baptist, Malachi 3:1).

A person can be a human (nature) and a garbage (sanitation)-person (position, office, responsibility, job, function).

The word 'mal'ak' (Hebrew), or 'aggelos" (koine Greek) only means "messenger" (period). Neither word has anything to do with an inherent nature. it refers to position, office, job, function, not nature.
I swear when I read this all I hear is Charlie Brown's teacher!

You are just twisting and shouting what the text clearly says. There is no need to contort yourself in such a way.

God makes an unmistakable distinction between His Son, and angels. Michael IS an angel.

So no matter how many times you twist it, God has the final say.


And the idea that angels aren't separate, and different created beings from humans, or God Himself, is absurd and heretical.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Looking at these two combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon” (Who is like unto the Beast?), followed with “Michael” (Who is like unto God?):

[1] “the Dragon” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Dragon” - Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB​
“serpent” - Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB​
“Devil” - Revelation 12:9,12 KJB​
“Satan” - Revelation 12:9 KJB​
“accuser of our brethren” - Revelation 12:10 KJB​
“his” [angels] - Revelation 12:7,9 KJB​
Compare also:​
“neither was their place found any more in heaven” - Revelation 12:8 KJB​
“was cast out … cast out into the earth” - Revelation 12:9 KJB​
“is cast down” - Revelation 12:10 KJB​
[2] “Michael” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Michael” - Revelation 12:7 KJB​
“Lamb” - Revelation 12:11 KJB​
“child” - Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB​
“man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” - Revelation 12:5,13 KJB​
“seed” - Revelation 12:17 KJB​
“it” - Revelation 12:4 KJB​
“Jesus” [even the “testimony” of] - Revelation 12:17 KJB​
“Christ” - Revelation 12:10,17​
“his” [angels] – Revelation 12:7 KJB​

Compare also:​
“caught up unto God, and to his throne.” - Revelation 12:5 KJB​
“rule all” - Revelation 12:5 KJB​
After considering these things, let some questions be asked, and fill them in by the texts of the King James Bible themselves:

Who is the “Dragon” of Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB?

Who is the “serpent” of Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB?

Who is the “devil” of Revelation 12:9,12 KJB?

Who is the “Satan” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who is the “accuser of the brethren” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who was “cast out” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who was “cast down” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who is the one which “cast out of his mouth water as a flood” of Revelation 12:15,16 KJB?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Does the fallen arch-rebel have many designations, KJB?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-rebel's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Who opposes the “Dragon”?

Who opposes the “serpent”?

Who opposes the “devil”?

Who opposes the “Satan”?

Who opposes the “accuser of the brethren”?

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that "Dragon"?

Revelation 12 KJB:

Is there a “woman” and a “child” and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:1-6 KJB?​

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” [1,260 days; aka “1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time”; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:6 KJB?​

Is there a “war” in “Heaven” between “Michael” [and “his angels”] and “the Dragon” [and “his angels”], wherein “the Dragon and his angels” were “cast out” and “neither was their place found any more in heaven” in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB?​

Did the “power of his [the Father's] Christ” on earth gain the “victory” and “salvation” over and from the “accuser of our brethren” in Revelation 12:10 KJB?​
Did “they” on earth also “overcome” “him” [the accuser] by the “blood of the lamb” and by “the word of their testimony” in Revelation 12:11 KJB?​

Is there “rejoic[ing]” in the “Heavens” for them “that dwell in them”, but yet “woe” to the “inhabiters of the earth and of the sea” for the “Dragon” being cast out of “Heaven” is now “come down” unto them and was full of “wrath” and “persecuted” the Church in Revelation 12:12-13 KJB?​

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a time, and times, and half a time ” [1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time' aka 1,260 days [“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”]; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:14 KJB?​

Is there a “woman” and the “remnant” of “her seed” [aka “child”] and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:15-17 KJB?​

Revelation 12 KJB

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that Michael"?

Who opposes the one which has the True “testimony"?

Who opposes the “Christ”, even "Jesus Christ"?

Who opposes the “child", even the "man child" and "it"?

Who opposes the “lamb”?

Who opposes “Michael”?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-defender's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Does the Son of God have many designations?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Who is the one who has a “testimony” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the one to “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the one “caught up” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the “seed” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the “child” and “man child” and “it” of Revelation 12:2,4,5,13 KJB?

Who is the “Christ” and “Jesus Christ” of Revelation 12:10,17 KJB?

Who is the “lamb” of Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Who is “Michael” of Revelation 12:7 KJB?

If the structure is truly Chiastic in its nature, then can the identification of the beings therein ever be broken [even according to John 10:35 KJB]?

If the Church is the Woman on the earth, and she the Body in Revelation 12:11-13 KJB and the Dragon fought against her, who then is the Heavenly Head in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB, who the Dragon warred against there?
Well, I have a couple of questions for you? Who did God the Father say that "ALL" the angels should worship Jesus Christ at Hebrews 1:6? And what did God the Father say about "who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens at Hebrews 1:10?" Also, why does God say at Exodus 7:1, (Like it was said about Michael the arc angel), "Then the Lord said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh?" Lastly, can Michael the arc angel or any angel for that matter swear an oath on behalf of God Himself? Checkmate!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Webers.Home

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From my understanding, JWS deny that Jesus is God.
I think they'd be okay with that if only they could see that Phil 2:6-11
entitles the Word's flesh to the name and rank of God.

Were I to argue the deity of Christ with a JW, that's where I'd put the
emphasis because it's much easier to discuss a man's ascent to the position
of God rather than trying to prove one of Adam's biological descendants has
always been God.
_
 

brightfame52

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I think they'd be okay with that if only they could see that Phil 2:6-11
entitles the Word's flesh to the name and rank of God.


Were I to argue the deity of Christ with a JW, that's where I'd put the
emphasis because it's much easier to discuss a man's ascent to the position
of God rather than trying to prove one of Adam's biological descendants has
always been God.
_
No difference. Those who believe Jesus is God, believe He is the Eternal God, at least I do, that being said, my point is many believe Michael in Dan 12:1 is the Lord Jesus Christ without compromising His Deity as the Eternal God. Jws do !
 

Mem

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Looking at these two combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon” (Who is like unto the Beast?), followed with “Michael” (Who is like unto God?):
I wanted to expand on this comparison of the two spoken of by daniel, the man in linen (who faught with the Prince of Persia) and Michael (who came to His assistance).

the man is described as "in the likeness of a man" in the same way that Michael is described by a question, and I believe a rhetorical question at that because the answer is obviously 'no one other than God Himself', as it so seems to me.

On the other hand, Jesus' Name (God IS Salvation). Jesus is not actually 'like' any other man, nor is He 'like' unto God, He IS the Alpha and Omega, the First and The Last.
 

CS1

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It's very disappointing that many have such a negative view of the SDA ministry. I don't think many churches or denominations can stand toe to toe with the church, in my honest opinion.

This really isn't the thread to defend SDA, but if you look at all their ministries, you may wonder why it's viewed in such a negative light. My honest opinion, if they were Sunday keepers like most of the mainstream churches (Catholic leaning churches), they wouldn't be looked down upon so much. Maybe it's their strong protestant message that offends so much. They are probably the most Protestant Church in my mind.

If you don't like the church, well, just remember, they have a testimony of Jesus Christ, and keep HIS commandments.

Continue on with the thread......Sorry for trying to encourage a believer in the faith. lol. In now way did I mention legalism and salvation in my previous post, but nice distraction technique.
it is not we have a negative view it is the SDA has an unbiblical position. as far as standing toe to toe/

on the biblical topics of :

  • The deity of Christ
  • the concept of the Trinity
  • why the Church has services on Sunday
We have held our own from the word of God. The SDA has yet to denounce its women founder as a false prophet. Just like the LDS.
The word of God tells us not to even listen to them when that who deny the deity of Christ. So to go toe to toe with a fool makes you a fool.
 

Webers.Home

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Seeing as how Phil 2:6-11 entitles the Word's flesh to the name and rank of
God, then I think it's appropriate to go ahead and entitle Jesus to God's
divine characteristics too, for example:

1» The Almighty (Rev 1:8)

2» The Creator (Col 1:16)

3» The Pre-existent (Col 1:17)

4» The Cosmos' sustainer (Col 1:17)

5» The nature of God. (Col 2:9)

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

The Greek word translated "Godhead" means divinity. This particular divinity
is modified by the Greek article teés. So then we aren't looking at a
nondescript divinity, rather, the divinity; which of course is God (a.k.a.
Jehovah, a.k.a. Yahweh). So then, Jesus has not only been endowed with
the name and rank of God, but also the very core of His being.

I've seen folks boast that when they meet Jesus they're going to clap him on
the back, shake his hand, and thank him profusely for what he's done. Well
you know what: I think I just might be inclined to instinctively cover my face
and look away the same as Moses did at the burning bush unless invited to
do otherwise because the measure of Jesus' superiority is off the scale.

Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having
the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to
every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice:
Fear God, and give glory to him.

Well, in all their fearing and glorifying; I sure hope they think to give as
much to God's son because he's entitled.
_