Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

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Mar 4, 2020
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"In the spirit" means not the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit is in you then when it says 'in the spirit' the verse is speaking of the Holy Spirit. What other spirit would a Christian be in?


Of course is God a Spirit.
God is the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

John 4,23 says not: shall worship the Father and the Spirit.
It says: shall worship the Father in the Spirit.
These verses are nowhere mentioned the Holy Spirit, nor to worship the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:10-11 says that people have a spirit and that God has a Spirit. Part of your identity is spirit. Part of God's identity is Spirit.

God's Spirit is God. Does that make sense? When we worship God we're worshipping His Spirit, too. God is the Holy Spirit.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I also might add a question.

Is the Holy Spirit God? If you answered yes then you can pray to the Holy Spirit who is God. You can worship the Holy Spirit. It's that simple.

If you answered no to the Holy Spirit being God then we have an entirely different issue here.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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I also might add a question.

Is the Holy Spirit God? If you answered yes then you can pray to the Holy Spirit who is God. You can worship the Holy Spirit. It's that simple.

If you answered no to the Holy Spirit being God then we have an entirely different issue here.
Do you pray to the arm of the Lord? That term is used in a passage about the Lord Jesus.

Jesus taught on asking the Father in his name.

John 16

23 “And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
(NKJV)

The Bible does not mention praying to the Holy Spirit or give examples of it that I am aware (and I've looked).
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Okay, I'm going to break this down even further. Those who mock will continue to mock; those with wisdom may learn something.

The fact that attempts have been made to discredit and marginalize me by mischaracterizing what I'm saying, and labeling me a "complainer," convinces me all the more I've hit on something. And it just proves that the scoffers really have no sound counterarguments so they resort to personal attacks.

The lyric's to Jobe's song, "Holy Spirt," go:

Holy Spirit, You are welcome here​
Come flood this place and fill the atmosphere​

In the first place, the Holy Spirit doesn't need our permission to go anywhere or do anything. He does as He wills, not as we will. It's a totally arrogant thing to think we can tell the Holy Spirit: Okay, you can come now, you have our permission.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit doesn't need to flood the atmosphere. He lives within each one of us if we're born again. This notion of "filling the atmosphere" comes from the idea of Territorial Spirits. These are demonic spirits that rule the atmosphere of certain geographical areas. Before a city or region can be won for Christ, the territorial spirits must first be banished, or so it is taught especially by the New Apostolic Reformation. The NAR promotes a plan called the Seven Mountains Mandate, a form of dominionism. The idea is to take back for Christianity the seven spheres of influence now ruled by Satan and his demons. They are government, media, family, business, education, church, and the arts. Notice the church is included in this list.
In order to take back these spheres, Christians are encouraged to do battle with the demons and cast them out. Then the doors will open for "Christianity" to step in a assume its rightful place as rulers. It stands to reason that if the leadership of the NAR (the "apostles" and "prophets") will inherit these kingdoms, they'll also inherit the church itself—theoretically at least, assuming their plan succeeds. Rather than casting out the demons, IMO the demons are actually helping them.

No doubt I'll be labeled further as crazy or a complainer. That's okay. This is a real thing and all anyone has to do is look into it. I'm not sure if the Seven Mountains Mandate will succeed or fail; I don't really care. My whole point is to simply show where this idea of conjuring the "Holy Spirit" to fill the atmosphere comes from. It has gotten so far from preaching the gospel and making disciples it's absurd.
please don't play the victim.

many may disagree with you and the things you have said can be seen as you doing what you say others are.

Of course, the Holy Spirit doesn't need our Permission to come, nor does he need it to Depart Which HE can do as the word of God says = Ichabod= the Spirit of the Lord has departed. IF you believe in the Trinity and the personification of the Holy Spirit,

then you should know, He can be rejected, Blasphemed, greieved, quenched, pleased, sought after, and comes upon people.

The word of God says 2Corthinbains 3:17

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The Holy Spirit also prays for us Roman 8:26
Likewise, the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

The words from the song are this let's see if they are supported or seen done in the word of God ? :

There's nothing worth more
That will ever come close
Nothing can compare

IS God our everything? Love the Lord thy God with all?

You're our living Hope
Your presence, Lord

I've tasted and seen
Of the sweetest of love
When my heart becomes free
And my shame is undone
Your presence, Lord

The presence of the lord has been addressed two time and the Holy Spirit has yet to be mentioned

Holy Spirit You are welcome here ( this is taking the Holy Spirit name in vain?)

Come flood this place
And fill the atmosphere
Your glory God

Is that not what happened on the day of Pentacost?

Is what our hearts long for
To be overcome
By Your presence, Lord


the prayer is :


Overwhelm us now
Oh, beautiful name
Let us become more aware
Of Your presence

Let us experience the glory
Of Your goodness


Lift your voice tonight
Lift your hunger tonight
Cry out for more, for more
Don't be satisfied

To where you've been
Don't be contempt
Praise Him for more
Hunger for more tonight
Yeah
Oh more, more of God
More of Him
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Do you pray to the arm of the Lord? That term is used in a passage about the Lord Jesus.

Jesus taught on asking the Father in his name.

John 16

23 “And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
(NKJV)

The Bible does not mention praying to the Holy Spirit or give examples of it that I am aware (and I've looked).
Is there only one type of prayer? Was Jesus issuing a ban on all other types of prayer?
Or was he telling them that soon the barrier between God & man would be lifted through him?
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Do you pray to the arm of the Lord? That term is used in a passage about the Lord Jesus.

Jesus taught on asking the Father in his name.

John 16

23 “And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
(NKJV)

The Bible does not mention praying to the Holy Spirit or give examples of it that I am aware (and I've looked).
Worshipping and praise doesn't always equal a prayer asking for something.

That should not be our only communication with God or what we are always seeking from Him. We should come before God with thanksgiving and praise.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of you guys...But what would be the harm of worshipping, praising, and thanking the Father, the Son, and his sweet Holy Spirit?

That line of thinking doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Do you pray to the arm of the Lord? That term is used in a passage about the Lord Jesus.

Jesus taught on asking the Father in his name.

John 16

23 “And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
(NKJV)

The Bible does not mention praying to the Holy Spirit or give examples of it that I am aware (and I've looked).
The Holy Spirit isn't an arm. The Holy Spirit is a person and His name is God.

Doesn't the Spirit of God instruct us, pray for us, and generally help us? An arm doesn't pray or instruct and certainly doesn't help unless an intelligence is controlling it.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Jesus being 'the arm of God' or the 'right hand of God' is a title or a description. He has many in scripture.
When we read that we aren't meant to take it literally that Jesus is the actual arm of God.
He isn't an actual lion either even though one of his titles is The Lion of Judah.


Jesus is God, not only his arm. He has been with God since the beginning.

 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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If the Holy Spirit is in you then when it says 'in the spirit' the verse is speaking of the Holy Spirit. What other spirit would a Christian be in?




God is the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



1 Corinthians 2:10-11 says that people have a spirit and that God has a Spirit. Part of your identity is spirit. Part of God's identity is Spirit.

God's Spirit is God. Does that make sense? When we worship God we're worshipping His Spirit, too. God is the Holy Spirit.
Well,
1. Romans 8,16 is mentioning, that we have a spirit. And if I am not wrong a human is build out with body, spirit and soul.

2. God is spirit. God father is spirit, but bible call him not Holy Spirit. Like the Son is not called father. And the Holy Spirit is not called Son.

3. You exchange spirit with Holy Spirit.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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I also might add a question.

Is the Holy Spirit God? If you answered yes then you can pray to the Holy Spirit who is God. You can worship the Holy Spirit. It's that simple.

If you answered no to the Holy Spirit being God then we have an entirely different issue here.
As I said, you exchange Spirit with Holy Spirit.
If I am not wrong then the bible teaches us and give examples for praising and worshipping. Nowhere we find that believers worshipping the Holy Spirit. The Adress is almost God the father.
I prefer to follow the bible more, then human made thoughts.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Well,
1. Romans 8,16 is mentioning, that we have a spirit. And if I am not wrong a human is build out with body, spirit and soul.

2. God is spirit. God father is spirit, but bible call him not Holy Spirit. Like the Son is not called father. And the Holy Spirit is not called Son.

3. You exchange spirit with Holy Spirit.
anytime in the Word of God "H" "S" in context to Holy Spirit is not the spirit of man God created and breathed into to give life.

The word of God says and shows in Roman 8:16


"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"

we do not exchange our spirit we received the Holy Spirit. God with us always
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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The Holy Spirit isn't an arm. The Holy Spirit is a person and His name is God.

Doesn't the Spirit of God instruct us, pray for us, and generally help us? An arm doesn't pray or instruct and certainly doesn't help unless an intelligence is controlling it.
My point was Isaiah 53 asks 'to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed' and described Jesus, and Jesus said that in the future the disciples would not ask Him to pray to the Father but would ask the Father in His name.

If Jesus said that about Himself and praying to the Father...when the disciples had been asking Him to pray to the Father for them, why would we pray to the Spirit? There are no examples in the Bible about praying to the Spirit.

It seems to be putting Trinitarian emphasis over the actual teaching of scripture.

St. Irenaeus explained the Son and the Spirit as 'arms of God' if I recall correctly. That may not resonate with people, but if you are going from scripture to explain the Trinity, as opposed to just accepting the Trinity because it has been taught for so many centuries, it might be helpful to have these logical steps to get there. I cannot find where scripture calls the Spirit the arm of the Lord. I was referring to Isaiah 53 and Christ as described above.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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1,794
113
Jesus being 'the arm of God' or the 'right hand of God' is a title or a description. He has many in scripture.
When we read that we aren't meant to take it literally that Jesus is the actual arm of God.
He isn't an actual lion either even though one of his titles is The Lion of Judah.


Jesus is God, not only his arm. He has been with God since the beginning.
Jesus is not the Father. He depends on the Father for His existence. The Father does not depend on the Son for His (the Father's) existence. The Son proceeds forth from the Father and not vice versa.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Jesus is not the Father. He depends on the Father for His existence. The Father does not depend on the Son for His (the Father's) existence. The Son proceeds forth from the Father and not vice versa.
Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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My point was Isaiah 53 asks 'to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed' and described Jesus, and Jesus said that in the future the disciples would not ask Him to pray to the Father but would ask the Father in His name.

If Jesus said that about Himself and praying to the Father...when the disciples had been asking Him to pray to the Father for them, why would we pray to the Spirit? There are no examples in the Bible about praying to the Spirit.

It seems to be putting Trinitarian emphasis over the actual teaching of scripture.

St. Irenaeus explained the Son and the Spirit as 'arms of God' if I recall correctly. That may not resonate with people, but if you are going from scripture to explain the Trinity, as opposed to just accepting the Trinity because it has been taught for so many centuries, it might be helpful to have these logical steps to get there. I cannot find where scripture calls the Spirit the arm of the Lord. I was referring to Isaiah 53 and Christ as described above.

that is the issue human logic is incapable of Comprehending the Eternal Godhead. The Trinity is a concept of the Nature of God who is seen in scripture as The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Logic is mote with an Infinite God coming finite men.

We must approach the Eternal Godhead reverently with humility.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Worshipping and praise doesn't always equal a prayer asking for something.

That should not be our only communication with God or what we are always seeking from Him. We should come before God with thanksgiving and praise.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of you guys...But what would be the harm of worshipping, praising, and thanking the Father, the Son, and his sweet Holy Spirit?

That line of thinking doesn't make any sense to me.

worship and praise are essential to prayer

We are to come into His Presence with Praise. We are to worship Him in Spirit and in truth FOR the Father Seek such to worship Him.
we are to kiss toward Heven. God inhabits the praises of His People.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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worship and praise are essential to prayer

We are to come into His Presence with Praise. We are to worship Him in Spirit and in truth FOR the Father Seek such to worship Him.
we are to kiss toward Heven. God inhabits the praises of His People.
Yes, I agree. I was simply stating a prayer doesn't and shouldn't always be just asking God to do something for us.

Sometimes we can go before God out of nothing but love, thanksgiving, honor, and worship.

I do agree that we should always go before him with Praise, Honor, and worship Him in Spirit and truth even if we are asking for a need, as well.

There is an old song called "Calvary's the Reason Why." I love the lyrics in the song. It goes something like this....Sometimes I just want to praise you....sometimes I just want to thank you...without asking you for a thing. Sometimes I lift my hands to you and sometimes all I do is cry. Everything that I have I owe to you and Calvary is the reason why. It is a really beautiful song and so true. It is a good example of praise, honor, thanksgiving, and worship, in my opinion.

 

Aidan1

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Mar 17, 2021
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anytime in the Word of God "H" "S" in context to Holy Spirit is not the spirit of man God created and breathed into to give life.

The word of God says and shows in Roman 8:16


"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"

we do not exchange our spirit we received the Holy Spirit. God with us always
I never said, that we exchanged our spirit.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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anytime in the Word of God "H" "S" in context to Holy Spirit is not the spirit of man God created and breathed into to give life.

The word of God says and shows in Roman 8:16


"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"

we do not exchange our spirit we received the Holy Spirit. God with us always
Oh sorry, i used a wrong word. I meant confound and not exchange.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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Well,
1. Romans 8,16 is mentioning, that we have a spirit. And if I am not wrong a human is build out with body, spirit and soul.

2. God is spirit. God father is spirit, but bible call him not Holy Spirit. Like the Son is not called father. And the Holy Spirit is not called Son.

3. You exchange spirit with Holy Spirit.
Sorry i used a wrong word in point 3
I meant confound and not exchange