Is Obedience Necessary for Salvation?

[Kidron]

So then to love God with all of your strength = to keep His commandments with all your strength right? Seems the apostles all knew what it meant to actually love the Almighty instead of being all talk.

Why can you love God and keep the commandments and die and go to hell like a bullet, then the lake of fire for eternity?

Its because you can be a UNBELIEVER< and love God and try to keep all the commandments, and God will not accept you.
Why?
Because Jesus said....."you must be born again".......and until you are born again, you're just a religious but LOST commandment keeper.

Its like this..
To go to heaven, you have to become as Righteous as God.
Commandments and law, cannot provide this, they can only show you that you are UNRIGHTEOUS.
That's their purpose.......to show you your unrighteousness, so that you go to the CROSS to find "God's Righteousness", as your own, by receiving His "Gift of Righteousness" that is to become Born again.

Thousands of people who are water baptized, and keep the words of Jesus, and try to keep the commandments died yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and went straight to hell, and are wondering......>"what happened"......"why am i here"........"i kept commandments, i went to church, i was water baptized, i read the bible, i gave to the poor"......

And God says.......>"i never knew you".....so, you had to "DEPART from ME".

Why?

Because Jesus said......"you MUST be born again".......and they were not. They were religious, they were filled with ideas about christianity. THey could come to a Fourm and talk about commandments, and law, and the old Testament, .....yet they were not BORN AGAIN.

 

[Kidron]

Before I continue, (because we have international members) let me ask is English your 1st language?

Y

Is it yours?

 

[SupahKent]

Salvation is not Temporary.
Once you are born again, you are always born again.

I'm curious, have you ever read Matthew 7:22-23? This should, if not already, be the scariest part of scripture in all of God's Word for us who believe: that there is the possibility that Messiah will reject you. This needs to be the backbone of our faith. This should encourage us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

These two verses are speaking of people who are under the belief that they are in a righteous relationship with Christ and are living to the best of their abilities through Him. Some will prophesy, some will cast out devils and others will believe they are doing the will of the Father because of their works. They are convinced that they are in good standing with Christ. What of their salvation? What of their rebirth? Christ will reject them because he never knew them. They are lawless and lack intimacy with God.

Yet, these people also thought that salvation, once obtained, cannot be taken away. However, they failed to understand that salvation is a process that comes to completion upon Christ returning and gathering together what is His. It isn't something that is immediate because you decide to follow Him. They also decided to follow Him and look what will become of their existence. It occurs when He returns for those who belong to Him.

If it were as people think, that salvation is immediate and permanent upon accepting Christ as their Savior, that they could continue on living as they please without consequence. Obviously, this is not so. God cannot lie.

This is very important to keep in mind. It should cause you to examine yourself on every possible level so that you may be found with your lamp full and on watch.

 

[Hakawaka]

It specifically ties to the priesthood.

Those rites and cleansing (blood) rituals that were required of the priests to do - as a memorial - for cleansing sins (whenever the commandments were broken) and for justification were no longer valid to do because the true High Priest has come to perform the true work of cleansing. That section of the law changed. Amended if you will. The law was amended, not ended (just like the US constitution wasn't ended but amended to account for the change in the USA's new situation). Those SAME rites and rituals are CONTINUED by the Messiah in heaven right now (whenever the commandment are broken by us).

So now, all we need to do is go to the throne and ask for forgiveness of those sins and for help to do better next time, but our task remains the same...to not break the law; to obey the commandments.

Do you believe dietary laws are still to be obeyed? Do you think it is a matter of salvation? What about water baptism?

 

[Kidron]

I'm curious, have you ever read Matthew 7:22-23?

This isn't talking to the born again.
See, this verse is talking about those who are not spiritually joined to Christ.

Notice that they performed Mark 16..... They performed Christian stuff., in Jesus Name...........But notice something very specific.

Jesus got rid of these commandment keepers, these self effort to be accepted by God = religious but LOST.

Why? He said this....."i never KNEW You".

See that? This means you can speak christianese, and rant on forums, and preach from a pulpit, and Jesus not KNOW You.

How to understand this "know you" is the key to understanding the verse..

Its very simple, but i have to explain what the NT means when it says....>"Know".
Its like this, SupahKent...........When 2 people "Know" each other, in the context of the NT, this is speaking of "2 becoming one flesh".
So if a man "knows" a woman, this means he has become "one flesh" with her......this is sexual intimacy.

You are aware that the born again are the : BRIDE of Christ.
This does not mean we are to become the Bride.....It means we HAVE become the Bride, and Jesus is coming back for His Bride.....the born again, the Church, the body of Christ.

So, marriage, is not just the wedding ceremony and the paperwork.
Marriage is the CONSUMAMATION, of the wedding.
It means, that you and your mate, have sex......as that is the joining, and the "Knowing"'.

See that?

So, in the Spiritual Realm ......for Christ to KNOW YOU< is because you have become His Bride.
He has now begin to live IN YOU.........."Christ IN YOU< the Hope of Glory".........So that is the "ONE with God, In Christ" =that is the same Spiritually, as to be joined physically to a person, which is to "KNOW them".....intimately.
See it?

So, when Jesus says.....>"Depart from me, i never KNEW YOU">.....this means that Christ never joined them.....He does not live in them.
They are not BORN AGAIN. They are not His BRIDE.
They are religious. They are trying to be like Christ. They keep commandments and do works in Christ's Name.
They live on Forums as religious heretics.
But that is all meaningless, because Christ does not ""KNOW THEM""....= They are not born again......Christ does not live in them.

So, if you are born again, that verse isn't talking to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm curious, have you ever read Matthew 7:22-23? This should, if not already, be the scariest part of scripture in all of God's Word for us who believe: that there is the possibility that Messiah will reject you. This needs to be the backbone of our faith. This should encourage us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

These two verses are speaking of people who are under the belief that they are in a righteous relationship with Christ and are living to the best of their abilities through Him. Some will prophesy, some will cast out devils and others will believe they are doing the will of the Father because of their works. They are convinced that they are in good standing with Christ. What of their salvation? What of their rebirth? Christ will reject them because he never knew them. They are lawless and lack intimacy with God.

Yet, these people also thought that salvation, once obtained, cannot be taken away. However, they failed to understand that salvation is a process that comes to completion upon Christ returning and gathering together what is His. It isn't something that is immediate because you decide to follow Him. They also decided to follow Him and look what will become of their existence. It occurs when He returns for those who belong to Him.

If it were as people think, that salvation is immediate and permanent upon accepting Christ as their Savior, that they could continue on living as they please without consequence. Obviously, this is not so. God cannot lie.

This is very important to keep in mind. It should cause you to examine yourself on every possible level so that you may be found with your lamp full and on watch.

This is worrysome (by the way welcome to CC)

1. Jesus told those in Matt 7 he NEVER KNEW THEM. So my question is, How could they have been saved at any point in their life.
2. Not quite sure how this should be our backbone. How can we live in rest. If we are always worried God may reject us?
3. John said the most important thing for any believer is the fact we KNOW we have eternal life (he wrote a whole book about it) and because of this knowledge we have the power to continue to believe.

Paul lives his life in a way even the worst tribulations did not take him down. How did he do that? With the knowledge that to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. His eternal destiny and his knowledge that this life is short is what empower him. Because he too understood the fact. The hope of eternal life, which Gd, who can not lie, promised before time began. Is the basis of our faith. If we lose hope this is a fact, and only a possibility. We lose the power God has given us to work out the salvation God gave us,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This isn't talking to the born again.
See, this verse is talking about those who are not spiritually joined to Christ.

Notice that they performed Mark 16..... They performed Christian stuff., in Jesus Name...........But notice something very specific.

Jesus got rid of these commandment keepers, these self effort to be accepted by God = religious but LOST.

Why? He said this....."i never KNEW You".

See that? This means you can speak christianese, and rant on forums, and preach from a pulpit, and Jesus not KNOW You.

How to understand this "know you" is the key to understanding the verse..

Its very simple, but i have to explain what the NT means when it says....>"Know".
Its like this, SupahKent...........When 2 people "Know" each other, in the context of the NT, this is speaking of "2 becoming one flesh".
So if a man "knows" a woman, this means he has become "one flesh" with her......this is sexual intimacy.

You are aware that the born again are the : BRIDE of Christ.
This does not mean we are to become the Bride.....It means we HAVE become the Bride, and Jesus is coming back for His Bride.....the born again, the Church, the body of Christ.

So, marriage, is not just the wedding ceremony and the paperwork.
Marriage is the CONSUMAMATION, of the wedding.
It means, that you and your mate, have sex......as that is the joining, and the "Knowing"'.

See that?

So, in the Spiritual Realm ......for Christ to KNOW YOU< is because you have become His Bride.
He has now begin to live IN YOU.........."Christ IN YOU< the Hope of Glory".........So that is the "ONE with God, In Christ" =that is the same Spiritually, as to be joined physically to a person, which is to "KNOW them".....intimately.
See it?

So, when Jesus says.....>"Depart from me, i never KNEW YOU">.....this means that Christ never joined them.....He does not live in them.
They are not BORN AGAIN. They are not His BRIDE.
They are religious. They are trying to be like Christ. They keep commandments and do works in Christ's Name.
They live on Forums as religious heretics.
But that is all meaningless, because Christ does not ""KNOW THEM""....= They are not born again......Christ does not live in them.

So, if you are born again, that verse isn't talking to you.

Those people were religious. When they met God, They used their works as to why God shoudl allow them into heaven. They refused to repent and say they were unworthy, and only based on Christs works were they even granted the possibility

 

[Kidron]

Those people were religious. When they met God, They used their works as to why God shoudl allow them into heaven. They refused to repent and say they were unworthy, and only based on Christs works were they even granted the possibility

God came here to give us His righteousness.
This is because we dont have any. And to go to heaven, we have to be as righteous as God.
That is impossible, unless we are "made righteous" by God Himself. = The blood of Jesus.

That is why we have to be born again SPIRITUALLY< as then our Spirit has been Joined to God's, because it has become this... ""THE righteousness of God, In Christ".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God came here to give us His righteousness.
This is because we dont have any. And to go to heaven, we have to be as righteous as God.
That is impossible, unless we are "made righteous" by God Himself. = The blood of Jesus.

That is why we have to be born again SPIRITUALLY< as then our Spirit has been Joined to God's, because it has become this... ""THE righteousness of God, In Christ".

Amen, Just like Abraham, He believed God and God accredited to him righteousness.

Its not our righteousness, Which are filthy rags, Its Gods righteousness. He wh knew no sin because sin for us that we may be made righteousness of God through him.

 

[Oblio]

Faith is necessary for salvation. Jesus says that if we love Him, we will obey Him.

 

[Kidron]

Amen, Just like Abraham, He believed God and God accredited to him righteousness.

Its not our righteousness, Which are filthy rags, Its Gods righteousness. He wh knew no sin because sin for us that we may be made righteousness of God through him.

Here is the mystery....

"fallen from Grace".

This is a believer who has stopped trusting in Christ to keep them saved.
They now chase "christian stuff", in place of God's salvation.

Why does this happen? It happens because they get saved, then they sin. And they think. '" omg, now what".
And because they do not understand that Christ became their sin, and God does not Charge them with their sin, they begin to feel the guilt and the worry and the condemnation, BECAUSE they do not understand they are MADE RIGHTEOUS, Spiritually, and this can't change based on their carnal deed.
They dont know this, because noone taught them what it means to have become......"The righteousness of GOD......in Christ".

So, they start slipping away into.....>"well, i sinned, and now i have to confess to get that resolved.....then they sin again, and over time, over years, this becomes their Christianity"............sinning and confessing. And that becomes.......>"now i have to save myself again, by doing that".
At some point, that has become their entire FAITH,, which is broken, as they have lost faith in Jesus to keep them saved.
Their savior is now.....confessing sin........or trying not to sin... or trying to keep this and not do that.....

"self, self, self, ". = no faith in Christ......tho still saved.

 

[Gideon300]

And what is the different?
To me Kingdom of God is a kingdom where God is a King and God will be a King in heaven so heaven is Kingdom of God

You would be wrong then. God was and is King. He was King when Lord Jesus walked the earth. He brought the Kingdom of God to earth. His definition was that demons were cast out by God's power. The Kingdom of God is not automatic. That's why the Lord's prayer says "Your will be done, your kingdom come, on earth as in heaven". An expert in Greek I read said that the phrase "on earth as in heaven" applies to the preceding phrase also. It is possible, and logical, to conclude that the Kingdom of heaven is first, to be established on earth, second, is where God's will is being done and last, where Satan and all that is of him is cast out.

Luke 4:18 is the gospel of the kingdom in summary. It is not possible even to see the Kingdom of God unless you are born again. That's why the Pharisees were blinded to what Lord Jesus was doing and saying.

If a person is born again, they qualify to enter the kingdom of God. It is not automatic. You have an invitation but there are conditions

2 Peter 1:

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Those who are born again are already in heaven. This is clear from Ephesians 1:20. What is not settled is placement in the Kingdom and rewards for faithfulness to God's calling on your life. Those who deny their own self will in order to do God's will are rewarded. Those who live for themselves have only what they gain for themselves. They cannot take that into the next life.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Kidron]

Faith is necessary for salvation. Jesus says that if we love Him, we will obey Him.

Faith is in the heart.
Obeying as a lifestyle is discipleship that FOLLOWS being saved......its not the salvation.....as the Blood of Jesus is the Salvation.

Many have the wrong idea that living the christian life, is their salvation.
They dont seem to be able to COMPREHEND that they came to God as a UNGODLY SINNER< not OBEYING, and God Saved them......because they gave God their FAITH......once.
THen, they run around later talking about......."here is what i do to be saved", as if God has not already saved them before they started to DO anything.
And you talk to these nuts and they will argue till their head explodes that their salvation is them doing doing doing.
When in fact its God who saved them ALREADY with the blood of Jesus, before they started doing anything.

 

[Gideon300]

Here is the mystery....

"fallen from Grace".

This is a believer who has stopped trusting in Christ to keep them saved.
They now chase "christian stuff", in place of God's salvation.

Why does this happen? It happens because they get saved, then they sin. And they think. '" omg, now what".
And because they do not understand that Christ became their sin, and God does not Charge them with their sin, they begin to feel the guilt and the worry and the condemnation, BECAUSE they do not understand they are MADE RIGHTEOUS, Spiritually, and this can't change based on their carnal deed.
They dont know this, because noone taught them what it means to have become......"The righteousness of GOD......in Christ".

So, they start slipping away into.....>"well, i sinned, and now i have to confess to get that resolved.....then they sin again, and over time, over years, this becomes their Christianity"............sinning and confessing. And that becomes.......>"now i have to save myself again, by doing that".
At some point, that has become their entire FAITH,, which is broken, as they have lost faith in Jesus to keep them saved.
Their savior is now.....confessing sin........or trying not to sin... or trying to keep this and not do that.....

"self, self, self, ". = no faith in Christ......tho still saved.

Yes, and at the same time the Holy Spirit works in them to break that cycle of defeat. If Christians were properly taught what salvation really is, it would make a huge difference. I met a young man that I knew briefly. He was sitting on a bench in town, downcast and depressed. He'd lost his temper with a group of former friends who were mocking him.

I told him that all he had to do was confess his sin and he would be forgiven. He was shocked. He'd been going to a Pentecostal church for 18 months and never heard that. As the pastor of that church said, Pentecostalism is not strong on teaching.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is the mystery....

"fallen from Grace".

This is a believer who has stopped trusting in Christ to keep them saved.
They now chase "christian stuff", in place of God's salvation.

Why does this happen? It happens because they get saved, then they sin. And they think. '" omg, now what".
And because they do not understand that Christ became their sin, and God does not Charge them with their sin, they begin to feel the guilt and the worry and the condemnation, BECAUSE they do not understand they are MADE RIGHTEOUS, Spiritually, and this can't change based on their carnal deed.
They dont know this, because noone taught them what it means to have become......"The righteousness of GOD......in Christ".

So, they start slipping away into.....>"well, i sinned, and now i have to confess to get that resolved.....then they sin again, and over time, over years, this becomes their Christianity"............sinning and confessing. And that becomes.......>"now i have to save myself again, by doing that".
At some point, that has become their entire FAITH,, which is broken, as they have lost faith in Jesus to keep them saved.
Their savior is now.....confessing sin........or trying not to sin... or trying to keep this and not do that.....

"self, self, self, ". = no faith in Christ......tho still saved.

I disagree

people who fell from grace had grace in their hands, but failed to act on it. They fell from grace. They had a religious background, who thought we achieved Gods mercy through our works and our obedience. They heard of Grace, and gave it a try but they just could not overcome their true faith. Which was in religion.

paul spoke to jews. Who tried to be part of the church but could not let go of the law. He told them, if you try to be justified by the law you have fallen from grace, You have fallen from that which COULD HAVE saved you.

Remember too. He called those who taught this justification by another gospel lost. He called them fools for trying to in the flesh perfect which supposedly started in the spirit (maintaining your salvation by works)

these people never had faith in God, their faith was in their works. As peter said, a dog returns to his vomit, because he is still a dog. They have not been made a new creature. They return to who they are. People who return to legalism and attempting to be saved by their deeds are returning to who they were.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is necessary for salvation. Jesus says that if we love Him, we will obey Him.

We love because he first loved us

 

[Gideon300]

Faith is in the heart.
Obeying as a lifestyle is discipleship that FOLLOWS being saved......its not the salvation.....as the Blood of Jesus is the Salvation.

Many have the wrong idea that living the christian life, is their salvation.
They dont seem to be able to COMPREHEND that they came to God as a UNGODLY SINNER< not OBEYING, and God Saved them......because they gave God their FAITH......once.
THen, they run around later talking about......."here is what i do to be saved", as if God has not already saved them before they started to DO anything.
And you talk to these nuts and they will argue till their head explodes that their salvation is them doing doing doing.
When in fact its God who saved them ALREADY with the blood of Jesus, before they started doing anything.

Such people need to be sure that they are not "goats". They are the ones who boast before the Lord about what they have done for God. As you say, what counts is what God has already done for us.

 

[Oblio]

The book of salvation has been printed, with red ink. One picks the book up and reads it. Good. I've found that if you pick it up, squeeze the bottom right corner between your thumb and index finger, and open it, you'll be surprised to find that it has turned into a pop-up book. Which has transformed my soul. Something to think about.

 

[Kidron]

Such people need to be sure that they are not "goats". They are the ones who boast before the Lord about what they have done for God. As you say, what counts is what God has already done for us.

Heaven is made for the Righteous.
Law and Good deeds, and Commandment keeping, can't make you righteous.
The Goats are going to find this out the hard way, when.....after their lifetime of talking about "you must do this, you must keep that, you must walk the walk"......>Jesus says.......>"uh huh............but i never knew you"...... so, depart to the place where the water baptized Christ imitators all end up wondering why all their good deeds and commandment keeping effort, landed them in Hell."""


God is not mocked by self righteous Christian pretenders who rant about "what are you doing for Christ".
As that is not Salvation.
Salvation is "what God did for YOU">

There is one reason a person Goes to Heaven.
Jesus said.....>"you must be born again".

Get that solved, and you dont have to worry about where you end up, and you can then concentrate on that discipleship that has been given to you, not because you are good, but because God has made you righteous.

 

[Gideon300]

I disagree

people who fell from grace had grace in their hands, but failed to act on it. They fell from grace. They had a religious background, who thought we achieved Gods mercy through our works and our obedience. They heard of Grace, and gave it a try but they just could not overcome their true faith. Which was in religion.

paul spoke to jews. Who tried to be part of the church but could not let go of the law. He told them, if you try to be justified by the law you have fallen from grace, You have fallen from that which COULD HAVE saved you.

Remember too. He called those who taught this justification by another gospel lost. He called them fools for trying to in the flesh perfect which supposedly started in the spirit (maintaining your salvation by works)

these people never had faith in God, their faith was in their works. As peter said, a dog returns to his vomit, because he is still a dog. They have not been made a new creature. They return to who they are. People who return to legalism and attempting to be saved by their deeds are returning to who they were.

So you can be born again one moment and unborn again the next? I don't think so. Paul rebuked Peter for falling back into legalism. Peter was wrong, but he had not lost his salvation.