Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

[Rock022]

Faith does dot equal love or works or grace. Faith it is only part of the whole equation.

 

[mark54]

No EG you are trying to make salvation depend ONLY in faith. I have said time and time again Faith is no better than works and works is no better than faith. They both are equal and necessary.

QUOTE]

Sorry to but in, but would you say Paul agreed with the above emboldened based on the following?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4[/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

It would seem from the above that Paul is laying greater emphasis on faith than works, for he clearly says a person has righteousness by faith without works. But he does not say a person can have righteousness by works without faith

 

[Rock022]

No EG you are trying to make salvation depend ONLY in faith. I have said time and time again Faith is no better than works and works is no better than faith. They both are equal and necessary.

QUOTE]

Sorry to but in, but would you say Paul agreed with the above emboldened based on the following?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4[/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

It would seem from the above that Paul is laying greater emphasis on faith than works, for he clearly says a person has righteousness by faith without works. But he does not say a person can have righteousness by works without faith

How clear is James

James 2:14 ...Can faith save you?
The answer is NO. How clear is that?

Why sir why do you want to justify faith alone and not listen to the word of God.

 

[Maynard]

then why does your church persecute paul and call him a liar? Persecute Jesus and call him a liar?

You're going to need to be more specific. How does the Catholic Church persecute Paul? How does the Catholic Church persecute Jesus and call him a liar?

 

[mark54]

How clear is James

James 2:14 ...Can faith save you?
The answer is NO. How clear is that?

Why sir why do you want to justify faith alone and not listen to the word of God.

You ignored my four verses I quoted of the Apostle Paul and returned to James
Does this mean I should ignore your verse from James and return to Paul?

However, I will answer the emboldened.

I believe the works God requires are done solely out love and gratuitude to God for a free salvation. They are the works God wants. And as surely as night follows day they will come from a true conversion born of a life that knows they have recieved a free salvation because of what Christ did for them at Calvary. Such people will not serve out of fear, or pride, just gratitude from a humble heart that recognises all the glory goes to God for their salvation, they can have none themselves. I am sure that is the heart God wants. .

I believe that works done with a view they will better enable a person to enter Heaven are not the works God wants, for such works are done in the belief that what Christ did at Calvary was not enough to save/justify.

So works will always come from the true convert, but the true convert who produces the true works will know they are not done to in anyway enhance their salvation/right to attain Heaven, but purely out of love and gratitude for the God who saved them by sending His Son to die for them at Calvary. They are the works God requires

 

[Rock022]

I believe the works God requires are done solely out love and gratitude to God for a free salvation.
This is what I have been trying to tell you guys

Nope, there are many converts that have left God. We can even find that in the bible. If you think I am defending works only you are truly mistaken. I have said time and time again, let me repeat. Faith PLUS Works not one or the other.

But to believe faith is all you need is completely unbiblical. This is a man made tradition!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then you are making God a lier.

1 Corinthians 13:2..if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing

So your equating this to salvation are you? Show me where paul equated this to salvation? It does not say he has no faith, or his faith is dead. It says he had faith, but he was lacking in love, thus what would he be?

Scripture says he would be nothing, a mere baby in Christ. what work can a baby do?

A baby has to recieve love, then he has the capacity to give, this is what Paul is saying.. They had not learned love yet, that is why Paul was feeding them milk not meet.

But you don't get this, Your like the pharisees, your blind. Because you want to do your part. Even though YOU CAN:T DO ANYTHING TO MAKE UP FOR YOUR SIN?

And what os faith with ought woks? Dead

So your still going to claim a dead faith is a real faith. How can something dead have life? can you tell me??

Faith alone sir will not save you.

Faith in ANYTHING but the work of Christ SIR, will not save you. because your trying to save yourself, which is IMPOSSIBLE.

I am appalled that you think Christs work was not enough to save you. I can not even imagine what he thinks!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith does dot equal love or works or grace. Faith it is only part of the whole equation.

The word faith means a trust or an assurance in something

what is your faith in? evidently your trusting self. and your works to save you.

I am trusting God and the work of Christ. And it is not even my Faith. God gave it to me. It is God faith working in HIS love to me..

It is not my works working in love to God. If I am not born again made alive in Christ. I CAN DO NOTHING. That why those who HAVE NO FAITH have NO WORKS.

But again, you can't see this.

My faith is in GOD LOVE, GODS WORK and GODS GRACE

Your faith is in YOUR WORKS.. see how far that gets you!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No EG you are trying to make salvation depend ONLY in faith. I have said time and time again Faith is no better than works and works is no better than faith. They both are equal and necessary.

Sorry to but in, but would you say Paul agreed with the above emboldened based on the following?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4[/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

It would seem from the above that Paul is laying greater emphasis on faith than works, for he clearly says a person has righteousness by faith without works. But he does not say a person can have righteousness by works without faith

Good point. He also says If it is of works.

1. Abraham can take credit (boast)
2. He is owed a debt (payment) for his work.. (this counts salvation out, because salvation is and always has been of Grace,,

As scripture says, If it is of Grace, it is NOT OF WORKS.

I guess we throw this part of scripture out the door!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How clear is James

James 2:14 ...Can faith save you?
The answer is NO. How clear is that?

Why sir why do you want to justify faith alone and not listen to the word of God.

CAN A DEAD FAITH SAVE YOU

It is very clear. No!

How can we know a dead faith? IT HAS ZERO ZIP NADA WORKS!

This is not true according to you. It can have many works throughout his life. and still fall short and not make it to heaven..

who do we trust? You or God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope, there are many converts that have left God. We can even find that in the bible. If you think I am defending works only you are truly mistaken. I have said time and time again, let me repeat. Faith PLUS Works not one or the other.

But to believe faith is all you need is completely unbiblical. This is a man made tradition!

On the contrary, To believe you need works is a satan made tradition which started with cain. Were taught and practiced by the jews. And has been alive in the church since pauls day, Continuing today.

Work did not save anyone in the OT. It certainly is not going to save you today!

That is what Mark told you. Abraham was NOT saved by works. but by faith apart from works (alone)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Poor God. I guess he is not as powerfull or all knowing as he says he is.

He saved people he KNOWS will not work and gives them the seal of the spirit as a guarantee

He saved people he KNOWS will turn away and reject him. And Gives them the seal of the spirit as a guarantee

Oh what Kind of God gets fooled by man into giving them his salvation, his eternal life and his guarantee, only to have to take it back because they did not really trust him in the first place.


This is the God you want me to follow?? You can have that God. My God knew me from before time began. he knew me before I was in my mothers womb, And he knew me (from like till death) and everything I would do. when he gave me his eternal life and guarantee of the spirit KNOWING everything I would do from that day until the day I die.

I can not fool God. Why you think you can,, Well I guess that tells us the God you worship.

 

[homwardbound]

Because faith with out works is no faith at all. No faith at all is no salvation at all. One has not even been born again unless he has faith. so he can not look to the power of God to help him work..

Dead faith = no faith.

so how much work would be real faith (say faith of a mustard seed, which can cause to move mountains)

Tell me does works produce faith? orit that Faith produces works?

 

[homwardbound]

As a follower of the Son of God I would like to know how my words are satanic.
How am I calling you away?
By telling you your faith is a gift? Is that threatening to you? That you are a vessel molded in Gods hands?
Is that statement scary?

I never said your words are satanic I answered what is on knowing that God has saved me, I said whether you are aware of how when one calls for works of the flesh is very deceptive for one to work for their salvation, and I might have mis interpreted what you said. But I caught a glimpse of the flesh sneaking in and defended who I am. I apologize to mis read yet when i posted I did not accuse you directly of anything for I said whether you are aware of it or not and now I do not remember what it was exactly that caught my sight
Thank you for bringing this up to me much appreciated in Love

 

[homwardbound]

Paul said in (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself. (v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). (v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law. How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus. (v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law.
If you are following all of the writing of Paul, then you will find out that you are following Jesus, and if you are truly following Jesus then you are following the law of God.

Jesus said in (Mat.7:21) “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven”. For students to succeed in school, students learn to follow their teachers' instructions, and learn their lessons carefully. But few apply this method when they are dealing with the word of God. Is Jesus your Lord? Then why don’t you do the things he says. (Luke 6:46) “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say”? He told you plainly: in (Ex 20:8-10) (v.8) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (v.9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (v.10) “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God”.

Wow!we agree on a lot! and in answer to what law is The law of Faith in Christ Jesus to love all whether they agree or disagree believe or do not and all the Law is fullfilled in the Law of love God's type as in 1Cor 13
Love you Tan
homwardbound

 

[mark54]

On the contrary, To believe you need works is a satan made tradition which started with cain. Were taught and practiced by the jews. And has been alive in the church since pauls day, Continuing today.

Work did not save anyone in the OT. It certainly is not going to save you today!

That is what Mark told you. Abraham was NOT saved by works. but by faith apart from works (alone)

The example James gave of Abrahams 'work' was over 30 years i believe after God had accepted him due to his faith.
.

I think paul gives us much insight into this discussion

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law/works(self righteousness) but that which is by faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith
Phil3:9

 

[homwardbound]

Faith does dot equal love or works or grace. Faith it is only part of the whole equation.

Yes it not faith that counts it is waht is the object of ones faith yo whom or what is it in, mine is in Christ and I believe that the Good work is carried on in me by faith in Christ and finished work, and the resurection by God the Father of Christ

 

[Rock022]

I leave for a little bit and you guys get busy. Every one that says you only need faith is wrong. THose who have change works to a love gesture are right. I have posted this but some fail to see it.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.

Working is a verb. Work = action. Faith alone dead faith plus works good. This is not to be confused with salvation because to be saved we need the grace of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Tell me does works produce faith? orit that Faith produces works?

works produce faith in self

Faith in God produces work which glorifies God because it is about him and others, not self.

That is why salvation can not be about works. because it would be saving salf. not being saved by God

 

[Rock022]

The word faith means a trust or an assurance in something

what is your faith in? evidently your trusting self. and your works to save you.

I am trusting God and the work of Christ. And it is not even my Faith. God gave it to me. It is God faith working in HIS love to me..

It is not my works working in love to God. If I am not born again made alive in Christ. I CAN DO NOTHING. That why those who HAVE NO FAITH have NO WORKS.

But again, you can't see this.

My faith is in GOD LOVE, GODS WORK and GODS GRACE

Your faith is in YOUR WORKS.. see how far that gets you!

Eternal please for the love of our Lord. Stop giving false witness to the already explained. If you do not get it fine, but do not say I told you you only need to work your salvation out. I have said time and time again Faith and works go hand in hand, mano a mano, together.

So please stop saying I need to only work my salvation because works with ought faith are dead. Just like faith with ought works is dead. Do not argue me argue God if you want to. If you must come up with an irrational way to explain this then you are making it up.

Faith plus Works is pleasing to God our Lord. Faith is completely different than works; that is like saying arm and foot.