Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you guys deny so hard that you have to work too? Faith PLUS works = salvation it is not Faith = all.

Because scripture does not say this

For by grace WE HAVE BEEN SAVED by faith not works

For we have been justified by faith, not works

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us

I can go on and on.. You use one little passage to porve your point, when it does not even do this..

Faith and believe how much difference is there?
I have faith God is with me = I believe God is with me
I have faith God will save me = I believe God will save me

lol.. then why do you deny you know you are saved right now?? how can you say this when your words do not say this..

How about this..

I have faith God is with me, because he is, and he promised never to leave nor forsake me

I have faith God HAS saved me, because he said he did, and he gave me his spirit ans a guarantee. How much more proof do you need to know you are saved.

Why do you only think God will save you but has not yet? because you still have to work to earn it.. A huge difference..

 

[Rock022]

Amen brother indeed it is all about God and what He wants. But also remember that it is our obedience that works for God. When a father ask his child to take out the trash, and the child complains a little but takes out the trash immediately did the child worked. Absolutely the child did as the father said even when the child did not want to. The child worked trough obedience to his father. How will God see the child's action? He will see it as good work or good deed.

Did not one of the apostles said the spirit wants to do good but the flesh wants to do something else. This requires obedience. How ever when we truly give our troubles to God He shares the yoke with us and the trouble becomes light. We are still working for Him but now He is helping us carry the weight.

I believe our difference in the understanding of the subject is purely semantics, I can see in your words the same I try to explain, but you call it something different.

Just a side note: Have you ever read the Journey of St Francis of Assisi? Quite a story, if you really want to hear a born again christian, I recommend you read His journey.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are contradicting yourself grossly above.

Nevertheless works have its place for believers. There are basically two groups of people: one who wants to become justified through their works and one who do their works because they already are justified.

There is a world apart in what motivates these two groups in doing good works (as well as rightly discerning what these good works actually are). There are those on one hand who want to prove, or even "gain", their acceptance with God, to God, by doing what they think are good works in order to hopefully be saved through them. These people will ultimately set their hope to their own efforts and boast in them. Then there are those on the other hand who, in loving gratitude, as a fruit of the salvation they have already received, walk in the good works that belongs to them as new creations in Christ and as such being "accepted in the beloved".

Huge difference between these two groups. The motives in works in these two groups of people are not the same at all, they are actually contrary to one another. Why would God be interested in our works in order to save us through them? Our works are to be expressions of our faith in God, beneficial for our neighbor, that we have all in Him, not a way to hopefully, at best, gain God's acceptance. This acceptance is already accomplished by the work of Christ. In which christians have their only hope.

to take this even further.

one group. who does the credit go to? well since it is them working to earn, it goes to self. not God..

the other group. do it for God in Gods power. thus credit goes to God. and although we could boast of thes works. (which would be a sin) if doen in the right way, it can be done out of love, which glorifies God.

the first group can only take credit for all their works. because all of them are only to benefit self (to earn salvation)

the second group can do both.. which is why a saved person can do a good deed. and yet still be in sin doing it.. (wood hey straw) or they can do it out of the power of Love God gave them, and glorify God (Gold silver precious stone)

 

[Rock022]

Because scripture does not say this

For by grace WE HAVE BEEN SAVED by faith not works

For we have been justified by faith, not works

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us

I can go on and on.. You use one little passage to porve your point, when it does not even do this..





lol.. then why do you deny you know you are saved right now?? how can you say this when your words do not say this..

How about this..

I have faith God is with me, because he is, and he promised never to leave nor forsake me

I have faith God HAS saved me, because he said he did, and he gave me his spirit ans a guarantee. How much more proof do you need to know you are saved.

Why do you only think God will save you but has not yet? because you still have to work to earn it.. A huge difference..

No EG God told us time and time again we need to also work and do good deeds, if you wish to deny His word and say God means something else when He tells us to do good works and do good deeds then that is of your own man made interpretation or you follow the teachings of men. I have shown you time and time again many verses that even say faith and no works is dead. Dead EG is that what you want?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is another reason...
Why is the bible say works with ought faith is dead and in another faith with ought works is dead, yet another you must give it all, and another you must carry a cross. Simple, because God was correcting us, those who believed only in one of this will save you He corrected. So when He said faith with ought works is dead, He was talking to people who believed in faith alone.

Because faith with out works is no faith at all. No faith at all is no salvation at all. One has not even been born again unless he has faith. so he can not look to the power of God to help him work..

Dead faith = no faith.

so how much work would be real faith (say faith of a mustard seed, which can cause to move mountains)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No EG God told us time and time again we need to also work and do good deeds, if you wish to deny His word and say God means something else when He tells us to do good works and do good deeds then that is of your own man made interpretation or you follow the teachings of men. I have shown you time and time again many verses that even say faith and no works is dead. Dead EG is that what you want?

No. He did not.

To do work and good deeds to earn salvation is law

Law and grace can not be mixed.

A child of God SHOULD do good works yes. In fact he will. but God tells us not to stop at a few good works, but keep working.. Your trying to make salvation dependent on this. which is law.

Go ahead, and deny it. and put your money where your moth is. How much work saved you?? if we must work. how can we know we are saved? God said we can know we are saved and HAVE eternal life. How can we know this in your gospel? we CANT.

 

[Rock022]

Because faith with out works is no faith at all. No faith at all is no salvation at all. One has not even been born again unless he has faith. so he can not look to the power of God to help him work..

Dead faith = no faith.

so how much work would be real faith (say faith of a mustard seed, which can cause to move mountains)

Jesus was very clear that to be born again is to be born of water and spirit. Jesus was baptized in the river [water] and the Holy Spirit came down from heaven [spirit]

 

[Rock022]

No. He did not.

To do work and good deeds to earn salvation is law

Law and grace can not be mixed.

A child of God SHOULD do good works yes. In fact he will. but God tells us not to stop at a few good works, but keep working.. Your trying to make salvation dependent on this. which is law.

Go ahead, and deny it. and put your money where your moth is. How much work saved you?? if we must work. how can we know we are saved? God said we can know we are saved and HAVE eternal life. How can we know this in your gospel? we CANT.

No EG you are trying to make salvation depend ONLY in faith. I have said time and time again Faith is no better than works and works is no better than faith. They both are equal and necessary.

Edit: How much work we need to do? I have also answered this over and over but you do not listen. We can never - ever do enough work for God we need to keep going. And just so you do not twist my words, works with ought faith is also dead.

 

[Rock022]

The Only place in the bible that the words Faith alone or Faith only appear in the bible is James 2:24

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone NRSVCE

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only​ KJV

 

[RickShafer]

So are you saying that you will always be saved? I mean even if you stop continually relying on Jesus?
I didn't think so.
Who gives you the authority over your flesh?
Who is shaping you into the image of Jesus? You or Him?
Would you ever be bold enough to say, "I am saved therefore I will always be
no matter what I do"?
No. - The sign of a believer is reliance on the One in whom he/she believes.
Many fall away, yet are led back only by the unmerited favor of God.
But none who claim they own eternal life. - This is spiritual pride. Only God
owns eternity. That's all I'm saying.[/QUOTE'
I do not use this amazing salvation as an excuse for the flesh, I am in him (God) and God is in me the words you use (whether you realize this or not is not an issue) I will not be judged by man's judgement. But the words you uise are said by the evil one through you to cause doubt. I am to respond with well what if Ido this or that. This is waht happened to Adam and Eve by the serphant back in the Garden. The serphant said the same as you just did (whether you are aware of this or not is not the issue) The serphant said it to create thought and thus doubt and they ate. therefore we are to take all thoughts captive (the firey darts of the devil captive) sift them through ones heart and God tells you the truth and one acts accordingly by trusting's way not man's
God has got me and anytime I get thinking of and about flesh (sin) I know God will straighten this out in me period for God is 100% faithful incarrying on the good work he began in all believers for God knows who are his and who are faking it

Love Homwardbound

As a follower of the Son of God I would like to know how my words are satanic.
How am I calling you away?
By telling you your faith is a gift? Is that threatening to you? That you are a vessel molded in Gods hands?
Is that statement scary?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No EG you are trying to make salvation depend ONLY in faith.

No. God says salvation is based on only faith. I just used three passages to prove it. But you just ignore them// forgive me if I chose to trust God and not you.

I have said time and time again Faith is no better than works and works is no better than faith. They both are equal and necessary.

you can say it till your blue in the face, scripture says you are wrong. so I will trust Gods word. which says if it is of grace, it is no longer of works, or else grace is no longer grace.

Grace is unearned, You can not work for grace, That does not work.

grace only goes with faith. not works.

twist it how ever you wish, Gods truth says your wrong.

Edit: How much work we need to do? I have also answered this over and over but you do not listen. We can never - ever do enough work for God we need to keep going. And just so you do not twist my words, works with ought faith is also dead.

Well then by your own addition. if we can NEVER do enough. we could never be saved by our works.. So why do you keep working to do what you just admitted is impossible?

Only Gods work can save us, Without the shedding of blood. there can be no forgiveness. Your only hope of forgiveness is to have Christ's blood applied to your account. Otherwise, whevever sin his blood does not wash will condemn you, no matter how hard you work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Only place in the bible that the words Faith alone or Faith only appear in the bible is James 2:24

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone NRSVCE

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only​ KJV

And your would be wrong again

Saved by grace not works.. that is faith alone

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy,, that is faith alone

Justified by faith apart from works.. that is faith alone.

After hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. after believing (faith) we were sealed with the HS of promise which is the guarantee of our salvation. that is faith alone.

It does not have to say alone to mean alone.. But you can't see this..

 

[Rock022]

No. God says salvation is based on only faith. I just used three passages to prove it. But you just ignore them// forgive me if I chose to trust God and not you.



you can say it till your blue in the face, scripture says you are wrong. so I will trust Gods word. which says if it is of grace, it is no longer of works, or else grace is no longer grace.

Grace is unearned, You can not work for grace, That does not work.

grace only goes with faith. not works.

twist it how ever you wish, Gods truth says your wrong.



Well then by your own addition. if we can NEVER do enough. we could never be saved by our works.. So why do you keep working to do what you just admitted is impossible?

Only Gods work can save us, Without the shedding of blood. there can be no forgiveness. Your only hope of forgiveness is to have Christ's blood applied to your account. Otherwise, whevever sin his blood does not wash will condemn you, no matter how hard you work.

Can you have faith that moves mountains and be empty?

 

[Rock022]

And your would be wrong again

Saved by grace not works.. that is faith alone

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy,, that is faith alone

Justified by faith apart from works.. that is faith alone.

After hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. after believing (faith) we were sealed with the HS of promise which is the guarantee of our salvation. that is faith alone.

It does not have to say alone to mean alone.. But you can't see this..

You are arguing with God's word? You deny faith can be empty and not be fruitful? Then sir you are calling God a lier.

 

[Maynard]

because I dislike your church and you know it?

He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you have faith that moves mountains and be empty?

do what? Would it be me moving the mountain or God? if the mountain moved, would my faith be empty? and finally do you know how big (little ) a mustard seed is? God said that much faith will save us, and give us eternal life.

do you have that much faith that he can save you forever right here and right now. or are you still going to try to work to earn your salvation (which as you said, can not be done)

 

[Tan]

We receive the Holy Ghost that day of belief, (Eph. 1:13) we have changed our minds from unbelief to belief and swear to God as well as the people in front of us that we will obey, go and do right, but just as the Jewish first chosen did not and swore they would, and never did, not conpletely. Then Jesus came on the scene while the first covenant was still in effect mind you and showed the first chosen their completee frailities in not being able to make it to Heaven by their works even to the point of if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out. He even told a rich man what he must do to get to heaven and that was obey the law. The rich man told Jesus he had obeyed the Law from birth. THen Jesus said that he lacked one thing to give up his riches give it to the poor and come and follow him. And that man walked away very sad he chose earthly riches over God the creator of all. Then Jesus went on for the model prayer our Father who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name. They hear in this prayer delver me from temptation and forgive us our debt as we forgive others their debt.
Okay now the disciples get very concerned about being saved themselves after the rich man and concerned about their treasures that they gave up. Then they heard this model prayer and heard about forgiving in order to get forgiven. so they ask Jesus how can anyone get to heaven they heard also about plucking out their eye, cutting off their hand(s)
What did Jesus say to them after them knowing and seeing that there was no way for them to get to heaven under the conditions layed out for them and also for us
Matthew 19:26But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Now again I want to point that this scenario was still before the death of Christ and Christ has succeded in showing the disciples that there is no way for anyone to get to heaven by works of the law. As a matter of fact at this point the only way is to become a Torso all limbs cut off, eyes gouged out and tongue cut off, better for part of you to go to heaven than all of you go to hell.
So what was Jesus meaning about being imposible for man but possible with God? Why could this prayer been meant for him to make it to the cross and take away all sin? John 1:29 says so at the end of the verse. Well sin has not disappeared has it? No!!!! So in who's sight was the sin taken away from at the cross? Yes God the Father? Why? So God the Father could live in you not seeing the sin in you as he saw the sin in the Old Testament in all those that did not believe.
Now this is not excusing sin by any means this grace was meant for appreciation (good news) it is not by works when one gets saved through belief, then works start from belief not your old flesh works new works God's he begins living in you by your free will and then starts to live through you as you grow in understanding this love lavished on you while you were still a sinner from the worlds point of view, and our own fleshly attitudes, but not from God the Father's point of view he sees you the day you first believed as perfect as his Son for he sees through his Son unto you the believer now as perfect, If Father did not look through his Son at anyone of us we all would be dead. Now Father since Father has done this through his Son and made you forever Holy and Perfect from his point of view through his Son's finished work at the cross upon your belief. Tell me what more does one need? Please do not use anything of this world. You now have everything you need for life and Godliness, you have transferred from death to life, your conscience through this final sacrifice and last shedding of blood payment for all sin is done. You are free, nothing more for you to do it is done for you by God. Now at the death of Christ a new covenant came into play Hebrews 9:15-17 and Hebrews 10:17 So therefore everything you quote in Matthew, mark, luke and John before the death of Christ is under the Old law (Covenant) not the new covenant
Let us see what Paul has to say about his own works.
Philippians 3

New King James Version (NKJV)

All for Christ

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Now did Paul say it was by works or by Faith in Christ Jesus? You can go on having yourown righteousnesscomes from the Law and be proud and boastful but Paul said this was all rubbish being righteous from obeying the law it is now all rubbish, garbage to him and has given it up. Let us move on to what he told to the Galatians about works
[SUP]Galatians 2:16-21
16 [/SUP]knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. [SUP]19[/SUP]For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Again we are to believe and and not be under the law as you keep writing for Christ fullfilled the Law and Prophets then brought in a new covenant for allthose that believe and will appreciate this that they will do the will of my Fatherbeing in agreement with now their Father as well through belief. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Let us go on in this proof that we are saved by Faith and made perfect through Faith in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3

New King James Version (NKJV)

Justification by Faith

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? [SUP]2[/SUP]This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
[SUP]5[/SUP]Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Tan I hope you are listening along with all of you that are caught under the Law and trying to be righteous under it. Paul is very clear to the people and yes it is clear that by belief that very day and through belief one does repent and want to change their ways and unfortunately try to do it under the Law and be righteous before God and never ever can by the Law
That is why he said to the Galatians oh foolish Galatians who has bewitched you? Now If Paul was present here today he would say to you Oh foolish Tan, Cobus, and anyone else saying you do not receive the Spirit at belief, you must become a doer of the law first perfect before you can be born again.

AT Pentecost they did not get cleaned up and walk perfect before belief or the Holy Ghost did not wait to live in them after belief waiting for them to go and be perfect of the Law, before entering them. The Holy Ghost came upon them as they believed and comes upon anyone who actually believes that instant and then the good work starts in them to become as Jesus was here on earth in total dependancy on Father, doing whatever the will is of the Father it is a growing in grace process, and one is made perfect from Father's vantage point that very first day of belief because of Jesus taking away the sin of the world for you. This is not received until you believe then one moves on into the new life dead to sin and alive to God forever more my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Praying for you and all others deceived by the curse of the Law that when it flows through the flesh it kills that person for they cannot ever be perfect in and of the Law even though the Law is Just, Holy perfect anf correct.
Love you all
Homwardbound

Paul said in (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself. (v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). (v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law. How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus. (v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law.
If you are following all of the writing of Paul, then you will find out that you are following Jesus, and if you are truly following Jesus then you are following the law of God.

Jesus said in (Mat.7:21) “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven”. For students to succeed in school, students learn to follow their teachers' instructions, and learn their lessons carefully. But few apply this method when they are dealing with the word of God. Is Jesus your Lord? Then why don’t you do the things he says. (Luke 6:46) “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say”? He told you plainly: in (Ex 20:8-10) (v.8) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (v.9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (v.10) “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God”.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are arguing with God's word? You deny faith can be empty and not be fruitful?

Yes, I can deny that faith can be empty and unfruitfull, because it can't

as James said, faith without works (empty and unfruitfull) is dead. It has no life, it is NOT REAL, it is FAKE whatever you want to call it.

and again I ask. is a dead faith really faith? or is it as james said, mere belief?

can a dead faith produce salvation? no.. why? it is dead, it can do nothing.. it has no life, it is NOT REAL..

Then sir you are calling God a lier.

No. I am agreeing with James

Your the one calling Jesus a liar in all the passages I showed you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.

then why does your church persecute paul and call him a liar? Persecute Jesus and call him a liar?

Paul killed Christians because he thought he was doing the work of God

Your church did the same thing for hundreds of years (yes they got alot of heretics with them, but they is beyond the point)

Your still saul, trying to earn your salvation as he did, before he learned about true faith.. and what the law was a schoolmaster for..

 

[Rock022]

do what? Would it be me moving the mountain or God? if the mountain moved, would my faith be empty? and finally do you know how big (little ) a mustard seed is? God said that much faith will save us, and give us eternal life.

do you have that much faith that he can save you forever right here and right now. or are you still going to try to work to earn your salvation (which as you said, can not be done)

Then you are making God a lier.

1 Corinthians 13:2..if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing

And what os faith with ought woks? Dead

Faith alone sir will not save you.