Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

[CDavid]

Once saved always saved believers use scripture to support their belief. They use the story of the prodigal son to illustrate that, no matter how far the son fell from grace, he never stopped being his fathers son. But, read that story with an objective mind, and you will see that the moral to the story is, a child of God who does get lost can repent; For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found . Another passage of scripture used to promote the deception is John 10:27-28; [SUP]27[/SUP] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [SUP]28[/SUP] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Reading this passage with emphasis on the words in bold print, as do those who preach this private interpretation, it does seem to support the doctrine. But let's read this again, putting the emphasis in another place. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [SUP]28[/SUP] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Reading the same passage in this manor, we get a condition placed on believers.

Many verses of scripture, when taken selectively from the text, do establish a "once saved always saved" doctrine. But, when verses are selectively taken from the text, it is easy to take them out of context. Surrounding verses must be included in order to get the real message. Sometimes the entire chapter must be read to develop the correct understanding.

To keep this post short, I'll stop for now, and allow for replies, which I will in turn reply.

May God Bless In Every Way

It seems that this post has provoked a degree of haranguing, and replies that I feel are quite judgmental. Please don't worry for me though. I was "once saved always saved" when I was 10 years old. So, if I am wrong in my understanding, it doesn't really matter, does it?
I do, however, want to leave you with this thought
[h=1]John 15[/h]
[h=2]I Am the True Vine[/h] [SUP]1[/SUP] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2[/SUP] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [SUP]3[/SUP] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [SUP]4[/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [SUP]5[/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [SUP]6[/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [SUP]7[/SUP] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. [SUP]8[/SUP] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. [SUP]9[/SUP] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [SUP]10[/SUP] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [SUP]11[/SUP] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

 

[CDavid]

By being born into this world we become lost in it. The only way to correct this inherited condition is to be born again.

 

[CDavid]

Peter denied Christ three times. Is he an antichrist?

 

[superdave5221]

Hey EG!

As you know, I used to argue with you on this subject. As I have continued to grow in the wisdom of God and in biblical discernment, I have come to believe that you may be right on this subject.

The real problem that we have in our churches today is that a lot of people have made decisions for Christ, but have not experienced true godly repentance. Their lives are no different after baptism then before, and therefore they are not saved.

This is a result of the modern evangelism which stresses the love of God while ignoring the holiness of God. This is so evident in the number of people in this forum who do not believe in a literal Hell, or that God, because of His great love, will not send people there for eternity. You see John 3:16 over and over again, but yet the image of Christ hanging on that cross to justify our sins seems to be lost to today's generation.

The great love of God is seen in His willingness to send Jesus to die a hideous death on the cross, in order to satisfy the demands of God's Law. People have the audacity to accuse God of being unfair to send people to Hell, especially those who have not heard the gospel, and yet they do not see that it is us, who have sinned exceedingly, who have brought the wrath of God to rest on us because of our great iniquity. We deserve to go to Hell! It is God's love which has caused Him to provide redemption for us, because we could not provide it for ourselves. To think of His Son on that cross is not only an indication of God's love, but His demand for justice, which could only be satisfied by Christ's death.

What a great tragedy that people are being baptized into churches who have never been taught the great price that has been paid and why it had to be paid. People are not taught what they have been saved from. They are not taught that they must repent, and live a new life in which they desire to please God and do not willingly submit to the demands of the flesh. They are not taught that they may have to take up their cross, and suffer for Jesus. We will continue to sin, but our purpose and desire is to please God, rather than the flesh.

Much of the problem stems from the oversensitivity people have to justification by works. They do not understand what this means. Justification by works means that we can satisfy the demands of the Law by good works. Everyone understands that this is not possible. Once you have broken one Law, it is all over. The only way that you can justify the Law after even one violation is an eternity spent in Hell. But Christ made it possible to satisfy the Law by living a perfect life, and dying for us on the cross. People have overzealously applied the term "works" to things like baptism, repentance, and making a choice to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and trusting and having faith in Him. This has nothing to do with works which satisfy the Law.

It is true, that God draws us to Christ. But what is it that draws us? It is the Law! Paul said "for by the Law is the knowledge of sin", (Romans 3:20), and therefore is the knowledge of our need for a Savior. Paul also said "I had not known sin, but by the Law", (Romans 7:7). Because the Law is not taught, people think that they can continue to live in sin, making no effort to please God, as long as they are as good as "most people". These people are not saved unless they realize that they are in no wise good, but instead are totally dependent on Jesus for their salvation.

As such, I believe that it is possible that apostates are not "backsliders", but instead, as you have indicated, may have never been saved in the first place. Such people will have hardened their hearts against God, but we must take it upon ourselves to evangelize these people, if we really care about their salvation.

 

[PS]

You don't become "un-saved."

If you leave, it shows you never had genuine faith and were not really saved in the first place.

So if someone gets divorced it means they never loved their other half?

 

[PS]

I agree,one cannot become"un-saved",because they were never to be saved in the first place.Grace is given to the believer by his faith,therefore,anyone who isn't to be saved,never had faith.

I suppose that is the same as being un-invited to a party after never being invited!

 

[PS]

Peter denied Christ three times. Is he an antichrist?

Peter always loved his Lord and never forsook him. That was an instinctive reaction and he regretted it.

 

[rauleetoe]

Eternal security doesn't cause those things that you say. Eternal security is the cause for a person being spiritual in the first place. You can't be spiritual without it.

What your real issue is with eternal security is that you can't guilt the person that believes it into your works based salvation model. Its the same with all legalists/workers.

How come they aren't working as hard as you? How come they are not trying to be as righteous as you? Why are they so "lazy" while you are so diligent?

You can't have the peace that passes all understanding or the joy of the Lord if you are busy working performing the law.

nnnnnnope, no sir..i just want all who profess Christ to walk with himg..no.one mentioned works of the law..unless you say we can live however we want if we just believe. That didnt help the demons much..

 

[rauleetoe]

If we are to talk Gramps, then lets start with the scriptures i mentioned, please stick with what ic said, i never said works save, but theyre necessary confirmation that youre a true convert.

 

[rauleetoe]

So, how much can one sin and still be considered a Christian?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, how much can one sin and still be considered a Christian?

better yet. how much can one sin and not be rightly condemned because of that sin?

 

[mark54]

So, how much can one sin and still be considered a Christian?

According to your question, a person is asked to judge their entitlement to attain Heaven/be a Christian based on the anount of sin they commit

Bearing in mind sin is transgression of the law

The answer surely must be none

 

[Bookends]

Peter denied Christ three times. Is he an antichrist?

Jesus already consider Peter guiltless even before this happened, Matt. 12:7...Read the context from Matt. 12:1. I chewed on this today, and I invite you to as well. Which also proves the point that we can be saved and still have sin and error in our flesh. I'M NOT advocating that it's ok to go out and sin...

We are all born an antichrist, and sometimes react and teach error in the flesh...the question is are you going to repent or stay one (an antichrist) your whole life!

 

[rauleetoe]

According to your question, a person is asked to judge their entitlement to attain Heaven/be a Christian based on the anount of sin they commit

Bearing in mind sin is transgression of the law

The answer surely must be none

If you practice sin as a lifestyle, youre not sincerely born again..according to 1john3..
and other scriptures I showed..It is not about works, being saved requires repentance..you either are walking or not. So, to say you are able to blatantly practice sin as a lifestyle and say you love God is a contradiction...

 

[mark54]

Jesus already consider Peter guiltless even before this happened, Matt. 12:7...Read the context from Matt. 12:1. I chewed on this today, and I invite you to as well. Which also proves the point that we can be saved and still have sin and error in our flesh. I'M NOT advocating that it's ok to go out and sin...

We are all born an antichrist, and sometimes react and teach error in the flesh...the question is are you going to repent or stay one (an antichrist) your whole life!

I believe that according to scripture, it is only when a person knows they have only one righteousness/right standing before God, faith in Christ, and not therefore according to law keeping(for sin is trasnsgression of the law) that sin will lessen in their life and not be their master. Though it must be added, there is a difference between sin not being a persons master and a persion being perfect in the flesh

 

[mark54]

If you practice sin as a lifestyle, youre not sincerely born again..according to 1john3..
and other scriptures I showed..It is not about works, being saved requires repentance..you either are walking or not. So, to say you are able to blatantly practice sin as a lifestyle and say you love God is a contradiction...

I am sure all would agree with the above emboldened.
But I become exasperated as to the huge amount of focus that is placed on focusing on, and striving to obey all of the literal commands of scripture. Can I ask you? What is your understanding of the following?

This is the covenant I will make with them after this time declares the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sinss and lawless deeds I will remember no more

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus already consider Peter guiltless even before this happened, Matt. 12:7...Read the context from Matt. 12:1. I chewed on this today, and I invite you to as well. Which also proves the point that we can be saved and still have sin and error in our flesh. I'M NOT advocating that it's ok to go out and sin...

We are all born an antichrist, and sometimes react and teach error in the flesh...the question is are you going to repent or stay one (an antichrist) your whole life!

To add to this. Peter did nto deny Christ as his messiah. He denied being one of the disciples who followed Christ. A hude difference.

And jesus forgave him, and did not even confront him on this issue. he strengthened him.. do you love me?, "feed my sheep"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am sure all would agree with the above emboldened.
But I become exasperated as to the huge amount of focus that is placed on focusing on, and striving to obey all of the literal commands of scripture. Can I ask you? What is your understanding of the following?

This is the covenant I will make with them after this time declares the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sinss and lawless deeds I will remember no more

we also go back to the origional question. How much sin would make us unqualified to earn salvation/. Since the answer is one sin. then how can anyone say they are worthy.

Why he is right, a child of God can not live as before, they would show fruits of repentance. where he is in error, is that he believes one can sin themselves out of salvation.

 

[mark54]

we also go back to the origional question. How much sin would make us unqualified to earn salvation/. Since the answer is one sin. then how can anyone say they are worthy.

Why he is right, a child of God can not live as before, they would show fruits of repentance. where he is in error, is that he believes one can sin themselves out of salvation.

Amen

The problem to me seems to be in understanding the new covenant. God has softened our hearts, we want to obey.
The moment you become a Christian you are convicted of your sin/wrongdoing, this is because the Holy Spirit lives in you, you have been reborn of the Spirit. You feel acutely all of your shortcommings. Your hearts desire is to obey God.

Now think of the person you love the most in this world?
Do you have to spend each and every day striving to obey the following literal commands where they are concerned?

Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not bear false witness
Thou shalt not steal etc

Of course you don't, for in your heart you want to please that person, not hurt or destroy them

In our hearts we want to please God, but we have the flesh to contend with
The battle is not flesh against flesh but Spirit against flesh

So we look to Christ for what is our hearts desire and rely on the Spiorit to sanctify us, that is very different (to me) from looking to the law/literal commands/ourselves, which can only make the sincere convert painfully aware/conscious of their sin.(Rom3:20)

It seems to me the old covenant is being constantly preached by many, not the new

 

[Cobus]

Peter was a devil or satan not long before he lied. But that would not remain so. Jesus said... There is still many things I want to tell you but you cannot bear it YET! They could only bear it AFTER they recieved the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit of Truth that comes with the WHOLE PACKAGE of God.

That Spirit, brings: Holiness and perfection, gifts to serve, Truth, Oneness, and everlasting Life! Peter had NONE of this before God gave him the Spirit of God Himself!