Is Prosperity For The Present Church?

emekrus · Sep 10, 2018

Please can you explain what you mean by they are in contrast with famine.

And while doing that, please don't forget the keywords increase and multiply.

emekrus · Sep 10, 2018

Dino246 said:

We are discussing scripture. Its not my dichotomy. It's the scripture. Let's discuss scripture.

Deade · Sep 10, 2018

emekrus said:

Oh no, he did not imply that at all. When we are given the Holy Spirit, God can increase or decrease our worldly possessions at will. We learn to be satisfied in whatever state we are in. His grace is sufficient for us. Eze. 36 is the physical prosperity given to regathered Israel after the Day of the Lord.

Regarding today, let's read what God had to say to a people that had their hearts right with Him:

Rev. 2:8-11 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

They are physically impoverished but spiritually they are rich, indeed.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 10, 2018

emekrus said:

where is there a 'prosperity clause' in the book of Ezekiel?

lets look at those verses you say are a 'prosperity clause'

Ezekiel 36:29-30
29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.

that is actually the Lord saying through His prophet, IF IF IF...if you do this, I will do that

He calling Israel back to Himself, again, and telling them if they will only obey Him, He will then do what you are calling a prosperity clause

I've see some stretching and reaching of trying to prove we should all have a huge bankroll in our pockets, but this one is truly off the wall and negates the intent and purpose of what God is saying

I do not believe Christians need to be poor to prove they are saved but neither do I believe we should ask to be rich

I can attest to the fact that God does supply what we need and often even an abundance of it

read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 36...for that matter try the entire book

you are inserting nonsense into a beautiful passage of scripture concerning the Lord's promises to His people

garee · Sep 10, 2018

The famine has to do with hearing the word of God in respect to the spiritually bankrupt (no faith). Some in whose names are not mentioned God hid from the world they lived in caves, they were destitute of this of the things of world. The last will be first and the first shall be last

It has nothing to with the temporal prosperity of this world. Corn is used to represent the daily bread of His will that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure (free will). Which we are to esteem as words of his mouth more than our necessary food to sustain these bodies of death .

Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him: On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him: But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Job 23:10-16

Deade · Sep 10, 2018

7seasrekeyed said:

I have learned both to abound and to suffer want. I have learned to be content with what God has given me.

Php. 4:11, 12 "Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need."

While serving the Lord, sometimes we give until it hurts, other times we seem to have more than is necessary. Usually God shows us where to put any surplus, in time. It all belongs to God.

posthuman · Sep 10, 2018

emekrus said:

this part of no consequence or should all Christians be buying real estate in Canaan...?

Jackson123 · Sep 10, 2018

Zmouth said:

You can interpret the parable anyway you want, you can say the seed is the Bible but it is clearly written in Luke 8:11
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. 2 Cor 11:8

Then again you might see the answer highlighted below too.

Of course it is easier for a camel to pass threw the eye of the needle than for a richman to enter into heaven, Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matt 19:26

Since dust it is and dust it shall return to, the dust of the camel can pass through the eye of a needle without any problem.
But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? John 16:5 So how are you going to get to heaven, by riding a camel?

Well if your God told you man has only 80 years to live on earth then I wouldn't any value in what he told you about heavenly things since it is written, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" [John 3:12] since if he has told you earthly things which are false then what makes you think what tells you about heavenly things are going to be true? You might re-read Ps 90-10 again.

Then again, if you got the number of mans days in the flesh on earth wrong, you might have got the number regarding his treasure in heaven wrong too....

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: Acts 4:34-35

Thus Saul wrote in 1 Thess 2:13 "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, ..." and let me guess you, you received the word of God like it was the truth right?

So you believe Christian must be rich or millioner?

Dino246 · Sep 10, 2018

emekrus said:

Here are verses 29 and 30:

I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.

Famine is mentioned twice in the passage. That is why I said the promises are made in the context of contrasting with famine. For that reason I conclude that the passage is a promise of adequacy rather than abundance.

Dino246 · Sep 10, 2018

garee said:

The famine has to do with hearing the word of God in respect to the spiritually bankrupt (no faith). Some in whose names are not mentioned God hid from the world they lived in caves, they were destitute of this of the things of world. The last will be first and the first shall be last

It has nothing to with the temporal prosperity of this world. Corn is used to represent the daily bread of His will that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure (free will). Which we are to esteem as words of his mouth more than our necessary food to sustain these bodies of death .

Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him: On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him: But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Job 23:10-16

Um, no, Ezekiel was speaking about literal life-or-death not-enough-food-because-the-rains-failed famine. Later in the passage Ezekiel speaks of "desolate land" being cultivated. Not everything can be allegorized!

Dino246 · Sep 10, 2018

emekrus said:

I agree: let's discuss Scripture, not your interpretation of Scripture. Ezekiel was written to Israel, with specific conditions. For your position to be sound, the passage must apply to all Christians individually, so you need to explain where the Christian's land is (verse 24), and where his or her towns and arable land are (verses 33 and 34), what was destroyed (verse 36) and why he or she will need "flocks for offerings at Jerusalem" (verse 38).

emekrus said:

The dichotomy is the part in bold. You summarized the passage and applied it incorrectly to Christians, so that neither "Yes" nor "No" are correct.

DianaO · Sep 10, 2018

All those verses where Jesus tells us anything we ask for in his name will be granted. And we think it is not as God intended that we prosper as Christians? The son of man had no place to lay his head. That's some icon to think it means being poor and homeless is as God wills? Are you kidding? The son of man had no place to lay his head because he was the king of all creation and all that exists came from his creative holy spirit powers.
Every place was his. Everyone is his creation from himself. All that is comes from and through the creator.

Anyone who thinks being poor is God's ideal should try it on and see how it fits. Meaning, leave your house where you're typing such ideas now. No money, just the clothes on your back. Start walking and try to survive the rest of the week until Sunday. Just you and your faith in God.

jb · Sep 10, 2018

emekrus said:

A complete twisting of Scripture to satisfy your greed!

SpoonJuly · Sep 10, 2018

emekrus said:

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.” – Ezekiel 36:26-30 (emphasis mine)

It is commonly argued that prosperity is not for the New Testament Church. And that as a matter of fact, the entire prosperity doctrine is false…

But from the highlighted clauses of the opening text, it is obvious that such arguments are not true. The opening text is a copy of the New Covenant as prophesied by the Prophet Ezekiel. And it was fulfilled and ratified by the death of Christ on the cross. By the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, anyone who believes in him (Jesus) becomes an automatic partaker of the New Covenant, and all its tenets.

And as a result, anyone who believes in Christ receives a change of heart, and the Holy Spirit as stated in the Covenant…

And in much the same way, anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, also becomes a partaker of the prosperity clauses of the same New Covenant (Ezekiel 36: 29-30).

It is also argued that this Covenant is actually directed at the Jews. That is true. But however, the scripture tells us that we are fellow-citizens with the saints through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. And that the wall of partition between us and the Jew was broken in his flesh. Hence, we—Gentiles—also have access to the Covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:11-19).

If we believe that every Christian under the New Covenant already has changed hearts. And the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, to enable them keep the statutes of God as it is contained in the New Covenant, we shouldn’t also have problem believing that every believer is also prosperous.

Here are the divine prosperity clauses of the New Covenant again from the book of Ezekiel 36: 29-30;

“I also will save you from all your uncleanness: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen”

In the above scripture, the Lord clearly promises us prosperity. And he assures us of not receiving anymore reproach of famine among the heathen.

Now a matter must be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. So let us consider another scripture that guarantees that divine prosperity is for the present church;

“Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the Churches of Macedonia; how that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of ministering to the saints. And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God. Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also. Therefore, as ye abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

I speak not by commandment but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor; that ye through his poverty might be rich.” –2Corinthians 8:1-9

I had to quote this particular scripture to this length so we can get the exact context. Because many say it is being interpreted out of context. The above scripture is clearly talking about the giving grace God bestowed upon the Macedonian churches. Verse 2 says in their great trial of affliction, the abundance of their Joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. So clearly, this scripture is talking about the giving grace.

Then in verse 7 the Apostle Paul admonishes the Corinthians that as they abound or increase in spiritual gifts such as faith, utterance, knowledge, diligence, and love, they should see to it that they also abound or increase in the giving grace also. Then in verse 9 he says;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”

Concerning the above verse (verse 9), many argue that the riches referred to here are spiritual riches. But saying that will imply that the Apostle Paul meant;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was spiritually rich, yet for your sakes he became spiritually poor, that ye through his spiritual poverty might be spiritually rich.”

Of course, the above quotation can’t be farther from the truth. It is scripturally obvious that Jesus was never spiritually poor while he was here on earth. He couldn’t have been spiritually poor, after living a blameless, holy life… After healing all manners of sickness and diseases. And even after raising the dead. No. The true interpretation is;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was materially rich, yet for your sakes he became materially poor, that ye through his material poverty might be materially rich”.

The above interpretation is in perfect harmony with scriptural truth. We all know that the only poverty the Lord suffered while he was here on earth was material poverty. Especially not having where to lay his head. Hence, he suffered material poverty so we can enjoy material riches.

I agree divine prosperity and the prosperity doctrine has been abused and pushed to some extremes by many folks. But like I always say, doctrinal and other abuses or extremism is not only the vice of the prosperity doctrine. Other doctrines such as grace, deliverance, faith, sanctification, etc…

have also been abused and pushed to the extreme. But the panacea or antidote is not to entirely reject these true and wholesome scriptural doctrines.

Because doing so will amount to throwing the tares along with the wheat. And it will thus, create loopholes for the devil to take advantage of. Instead, we should study our bibles carefully and pray more fervently so we will be able to receive the right spiritual insight to be able to separate the shafts from the wheats.

So here we have it. Divine prosperity is for the present Church. Firstly, because it is a part of the New Covenant; and secondly, our Lord Jesus Christ, substituted his earthly material poverty for it.

Remain Blessed!

Emeke Odili.

You need to understand context---Who is this talking to, talking about, and when will it be fulfilled.
This is directed to Israel. It will be fulfilled when Israel receives Christ as the Messiah at His second coming when He will reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years.
Has nothing to do with president day saints.

Jackson123 · Sep 10, 2018

DianaO said:

So you believe Christian must be millioner? In my church most member are low income. Is that mean they aren't Christian? Some Christian are rich, may be because you are millioner than you believe God Will every Christian millioner, healthy and rich.

Peter is Christian and apostle, but he say hold and Silverstone I have none. It mean he is not millioner.

Acts 3:6-16 King James Version (KJV)

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Jesus say

Matthew 5:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

To me that also mean If your money offend thee, throw It for It is profitable for ther that you become poor than rich but go to hell

Jesus focus oN eternal rich not temporal rich.

DianaO · Sep 10, 2018

Jackson123 said:

So you believe Christian must be millioner? In my church most member are low income. Is that mean they aren't Christian? Some Christian are rich, may be because you are millioner than you believe God Will every Christian millioner, healthy and rich.

Peter is Christian and apostle, but he say hold and Silverstone I have none. It mean he is not millioner.

Acts 3:6-16 King James Version (KJV)

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Jesus say

Matthew 5:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

To me that also mean If your money offend thee, throw It for It is profitable for ther that you become poor than rich but go to hell

Jesus focus oN eternal rich not temporal rich.

Nope. Never said I believe Christians should be millionaires.

garee · Sep 10, 2018

Dino246 said:

The desolate land speaks to the corrupted heaven and earth. The new heavens and earth are in view hid in that parable. Not everything is literalized as if we walked by sight.

like many other portions of scriptures the use of historically true parables are used the hide the spiritual understanding from the lost .All of the parables are used to represent the gospel of our salvation. It never about these bodies of death that must return to the lifeless spiritless dust they were taken from.

A person simply need the right prescription for rightly dividing the parables.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:2 Cor 4:3

The proper 20/20 prescription below used to find the gospel hid, as it is written.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Cor 4:3

Jackson123 · Sep 10, 2018

DianaO said:

How about low income Christian?

Dino246 · Sep 10, 2018

garee said:

Your interpretation is not sound, because the following verses (34-36) cannot be reconciled with it:

"The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by. They will say, 'This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.' Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate." (italics in original)

There will not be any nations that are left around the new heavens and new earth. There will be no need for the cities to be fortified. There won't be anyone left "who passes by".

While there may be some parallels between this passage and the eternal kingdom, it appears that they are incidental rather than intentional.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 10, 2018

DianaO said:

who is the anyone that stated being poor is God's ideal? I know I didn't say that. who said leave your house with just your clothes on your back? seems you are exaggerating.

do you think there is more to Jesus saying ask for anything in His name and it will be granted?

cause God has lots of splainin to do to lots and lots of people if that is the case

I can't even begin to imagine the horrifying things that would happen if everyone who prayed got what they wanted

Is Prosperity For The Present Church?

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