Is Protestant Biblicism evil?

[zone]

Dear Zone,
Sola Luther?
Martin Luther professed "sola Scriptura".
But he also professed "who proceedeth from the Father" and Son (FILIOQUE)?
Also, where did you get this information on an alleged head of John the Baptist?
Do you profess to be correct on the question of relics, but fail to be correct on the question of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the procession of the Holy Spirit?
Or do you, to your credit, fail to follow "Sola Luther" and "Sola Augustine of Hippo" and "Sola Calvin", and then, along with John 15:26 and our LORD Jesus Christ, you reject FILIQOUE "AND THE SON"! God bless you if you do!
Sola Fide contradicts James 2:24, and thus, if you profess it, your view is heretical and places James outside of the canon of Scripture, and you follow the man-made tradition of Martin Luther, who wanted to delete the book of James from the canon of the NT, and he called it a "right strawy epistle" (epistle of straw), and the work "of no apostle". That is Martin Luther. Luther thus re-writes Scripture, deleting James 2:24 from the Bible, and adding the word "alone" to the Greek text of Romans 3:28, where there is no word "alone" in the Greek of this part of Romans! Go figure!
So, is it really to God alone the glory? Or is it Soli Luther Gloria, for Martin Luther was the man who invented the false doctrine of "sola fide", and he thus makes Blessed Saint Paul Romans 3:28 contradict Blessed Saint James 2:24, and thus we have a false lutheran god who contradicts himself by speaking equivocation (lies) in the self-contradictory NT holy Scriptures. All if we follow Lutheran "sola Scriptura" private interpretation, in contradiction of 2 Peter 1:20-21!
God save us all from all sin, error, and heresy, and from the power of death, and from the works of the devil, and from the devil, the even one: by the power of the blood of Jesus Christ our LORD and the merciful power of His glorious Resurrection. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
April 16/29, 2011 AD

Scott:
so, you believe you are saved by works, not by Grace through faith.
that's not a surprise.

the use of James to create a different flavour of Papal dogma is EO's game.

the "schism" between Rome and EO is merely a squabble: its just two ladies of a certain age having a disagreement....they are sisters - no difference.

if you wish to examines the inner workings and rituals of the OC for what they are, i'm open.

 

[zone]

I don't find this kind of relic hoaxes going on in Eastern Orthodoxy.

is the following accurate, Scott?
and is this the "true church"?

no wonder Sola Scriptura is anathema to EO.

relics in EO:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Relic

 

[Scotth1960]

Scott.
Dear eternally grateful,
I was catechized in the Lutheran faith.
So I can't say I studied it personally. I just accepted what they told me.
They had me read Luther's catechisms, and later, on my own, I read the Lutheran "Book of Concord". I got bored with Lutheranism, and heard about the Assemblies of God in the "Handbook of Denominations". It was interesting to me, so I became a AG Pentecostal for a few years. Later, I became disenchanted with speaking in tongues, and I was especially needing to repent, but I was superficial. Only time and experience have brought me to the point where I am really repenting and not doing the same sins I used to do. I am struggling to avoid bad thoughts and bad behaviors. I am praying for forgiveness when I have an inappropriate thought. Anyway, every Sunday when I was in Lutheran "church", I, in ignorance, recited the creed as saying "who proceeds from the Father" and the Son. I had never personally studied the Bible to see what the Bible itself says about the procession of the Holy Spirit. I read "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Gillquist, and he pointed out in his excellent book what John 15:26 says. So then I got out all my Bibles, and in each Bible in my collection, they all said, "who proceeds from the Father". The Lutherans were wrong! They added the words "and the Son."
This caused another crisis of faith in me. How can a church that claims to be from God get such a doctrine in their very church creed wrong? So I could no longer believe this. It was a paradox. I was still in my local Lutheran congregation there with my parents, and I was saying "who proceeds from the Father", while the rest of the Lutherans were saying "who proceeds from the Father" and the Son. Thus, I was in disunity with my fellow Lutherans. I could not in good conscience remain a Lutheran. And I also learned my charismatic renewal from the Assemblies of God was defective. So I had to give up Pentecostalism as well. So now, I am in transition, and have been attending a few time the local Russian Orthodox Church. It is a better experience than I had at a Greek Orthodox Church, where they follow Greek traditions and the service is mostly in Greek. So I couldn't get into that. It is okay for them to worship in Greek. But if Eastern Orthodoxy is going to grow in America, it will have to resolve the language problem and conduct its Divine Liturgy in English, a language that most of the American people can understand. Take care.
God bless you.
Scott
PS Actually I didn't misrepresent Scripture. I just pointed out that "faith without works" is dead. Not that faith is not necessary. But James 2:24 says salvation doesn't come by faith alone. A saved person will always have good works as the fruit of saving faith. Anyway, dear friend, what do you mean by "NEC"? What is "the NEC book?" Just wondering. Always, Scott

A little better. But it is next to impossible to see where you wrote and where I wrote. A suggestion. If your not sure on formatting. Do not hit reply, but his preview post until you have everything the way you want it. This helps me, especially when I was learning how to post correctly. I hope I find all your responses, but I can't guarantee it because alot of it is in my quote, and uses my same formatting.

Actually you just misinterpreted scripture. Eph 2: 8-9 is how one is saved. EPh 2: 10 speaks of what happens to a person who is saved. Titus 3: 5 states emphatically we are not saved by works. But by God. And james 2 speaks of those who state they had faith. but lied. proven by the fact they have no works.

Not to mention.,. what does this have to do with what I said? about 2 gospels. You did not even respond to what I said!

My God Scott. so let me get this straight. If I am a protestant. I am blindly following the protestant faith. Yet I believe the way I do because I studied. Yet you follow what your church says. and you are not following blindly?? It can not be both ways!

I understand completely. I am not blind. Nor am I stupid! I could care less about protestant vs romanism. It means nothing to me. What matters is getting to heaven. And I am not going to place my eternity in anyone's hands

If a person came up to me and said I do not have to read the national electric code. I might mess up and misinterpret it. Just listen to him he will not lead me astray I would be an idiot to just take him at his word for it. and not study the NEC book to make sure he is right. If he is wrong. and I mess up I could get sued, arrested or whatever. No different. I am not going to listen to ANY man and take his word for it. I am going to study to make sure hwat he says comes from God. If I do this and mess up it is my fault. But if I blindly follow him, and he is wrong. I still have no one to blame but myself.


It does not make them wrong. any more than the trinity is a tradition of men which comes from your church. The Tradition that matters is the one which can be proven by scripture. Paul used scripture to prove his traditions. As did Christ.

Just because my faith agrees with many protestant churches does not make my faith wrong! nor does it mean I have blindly followed them. I believe the way I do because I "study to show myself approved" so I am not asshamed and rightly devide the word of truth.



It is not the capitol letters. I am assuming when you use 5 size font your formatting goes bonkers. It does not take the whole page and is all messed up. That is what I was talking about.


Jesus quoted the prophets. He believed as they did. Yet he did not say he got the words from the prophets. He got them from God through the prophets. Just because I believe something any church does does not mean I follow their church. All churches teach Jesus was baptised. does that Mean I get this doctron from all churches? NO! I got it from God!

The Holy SPirit helps me understand. It does not mean I always listen to him. I am prone to error when I do not humble myself and listen. as ALL MEN ARE. No man has been given the ability to infallibly interpret anything. Unless their human nature is removed. Human nature can always overule the HS and we can follow the flesh and not the spirit. Even in our interpretations. Even the humans of the roman churches you claim have infalability. God did not remove their free will, their flesh, or their human nature.

You ask it? So let me guess. You would accept whatever they said? Well you do not have to answer that, I know the answer. In other words, your blindly following them. Or you would not ask., You would seek Gods word, and get the answer yourself. Or ask them. then study Gods word to see if their answer lines up with Gods word. But thats right. You might mess up in your interpretation. So you better listen to them. See the problem here!

Thats funny. The jews made the same mistakes. Did they get it right. You sound just like the pharisees. you even make the same arguments they do. This should send a red flag to your heart.. But God can only show you if you open your heart. If your heart is closed, God could stand in front of you and show you the way, and you would never see him. Just like the jews did not!

You will never know if the church taught what I believed. Because in the middle to late 300's. My beliefs would have been deemed a heresy. I would have been outcast. Jailed or killed for my faith. and all my heretical documents would have been destroyed. But that does not matter to you does it?


I disagree with the orthodox church because her gospel and many of her traditions and doctrines contradict scripture. Not because she claims anything. Do you think I care what she claims? Do you think I think she offends me? Or scares me? If you think so. You do not know me at all. She is free to believe what she wants. It is no hair off my back. Nor will it affect my eternity. What I care about is what God thinks.

your talking about a physical organisation here. A tare is not a part of the church, they are imposters. Thats what the apostles called them. And they were never part of the church. John also makes this clear.

The church is visible. It is seen by the HS who indwells it. and is a light in the world. It does not reside in buildings. It resides in the hearts of the believers who are a part of her.



That is where I got my traditions.



I DO NOT FOLLOW MARTIN LUTHER. I DO NOT FOLLOW ANY MAN.. WILL YOU STOP SAYING I DO!!!!~

And yes. I did yell that time. I am sick of being accused of doing something I do not do!

Did Jesus ask what the early jews believed? Did any of the apostle ask or see what any of the early jews believed? or the early fathers? No. They spoke scripture. said this is what is says.

You tell me to follow the early apostles (fathers) example. I do. The pharisees are the ones who stated they followed the early fathers. Not the apostles themselves! So try again!


There you go again listening to men. You do understand that scripture was not completed when Paul made those words? Of course he said to follow tradition. Because tradition was not all put down in writing!

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So the bible does not tell us how to be baptized?? Wow!! Who told you this??[/B]

If you want to follow men. Feel free. But don't demand I follow men..
PS You falsely assume that I follow men. But where does your doctrine come from? It comes from some men. All people get their preaching from men. It all depends whether the men obtain the tradition of God, or the tradition of men. The tradition of God comes from men of God in the Church of God, the Orthodox Church. The traditions of men comes from papal Rome after 1014 AD and from Rome's orphaned children, the Protestants of the Reformation. So, if your tradition agrees with anything Protestant, it is from men, not from men of God, but men who innovate and preach errors. True traditions come from a fellowship of Christians in communion with a local Orthodox bishop.
I am just in process of coming into communion with Russian Orthodoxy, and have not yet completed my journey. I have just attended a few times.
My process is studying Orthodox Church writings on my own at this point of the way.

 

[Scotth1960]

Scott:
so, you believe you are saved by works, not by Grace through faith.
that's not a surprise.

the use of James to create a different flavour of Papal dogma is EO's game.

the "schism" between Rome and EO is merely a squabble: its just two ladies of a certain age having a disagreement....they are sisters - no difference.

if you wish to examines the inner workings and rituals of the OC for what they are, i'm open.

I don't believe I am saved by works. I am saying that "faith without works is dead", so we are not saved by "faith alone". Perhaps you should take it up with James 2:24. If you say we are saved by faith without works, by faith alone, what are you going to believe.
As for Rome and EO being the same, you are 1000 percent wrong. Actually, it is most of the Protestants and Rome that are exactly the same faith, for they all say "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE).
To resolve this matter, you need to read the section on the procession of the Holy Spirit in your BIBLE, John 15:26, and see what Fr. Peter E. Gillquist comments upon this verse in "Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith". Ben Lomond, CA: Conciliar Press.
See also the excellent books.
The Filioque: History of a Doctrinal Controversy. A. Edward Siecienski. Oxford Studies in Historical Theology. New York: Oxford University Press, 2010.
See: Farrell, Joseph P. translator. St. Photios. The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1987.
Holy Transfiguration Monastery, translators. St. Photios. On the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Boston, MA: Studion Publishers, 1983.

Unless you read John 15:26, you will not know why the Orthodox Church teaches the true Gospel of Jesus Christ regarding the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone. And why Papal Rome and most of Protestantism are in error. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Dude653]

Friends, Is Protestant Biblicism evil? Is Protestant insistence on "sola Scriptura" evil, in

violation of the Scripture's own anathema against private, personal interpretation of

the Scriptures (see 2 Peter 1:20-21). In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington Friday, April 16/29,

2011 AD. Take care!

God bless you with the knowledge of the truth (John 16:13; 2 Peter 3:9).

HUH???!!!!!

 

[zone]

we are not saved by "faith alone".

and so, the Reformation.

 

[zone]

So then I got out all my Bibles, and in each Bible in my collection, they all said, "who proceeds from the Father". The Lutherans were wrong! They added the words "and the Son."

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

all the fussing over the Eternal Deity....

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

 

[silverwind]

Luke 18

When the Son of Man returns will he find faith on the earth?

1. He's returning
2. He'll be looking for FAITH
3. The question is: Will he find it?

 

[SantoSubito]

and so, the Reformation.

Actually that is not the cause nor the reason of the Reformation. The only reason Luther finally broke away from the RCC is because Pope Leo X excommunicated him.

 

[zone]

Actually that is not the cause nor the reason of the Reformation. The only reason Luther finally broke away from the RCC is because Pope Leo X excommunicated him.

ehehehe.
because he wouldn't budge on Justification by Grace through Faith.
true, he was willing to keep the rest....

but everything stands or falls on that TRUTH.

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

~

Luther taught that salvation is not earned by good deeds but received only as a free gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority of the pope of the Roman Catholic Church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge[2] and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptized Christians to be a holy priesthood.[3] Those who identify with Luther's teachings are called Lutherans.

"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen"

 

[Red33]

Luke 18

When the Son of Man returns will he find faith on the earth?

1. He's returning
2. He'll be looking for FAITH
3. The question is: Will he find it?

Will he find faith in us (or in me) when He comes for the church? We are to build ourselves up in the most holy faith and keep ourselves in the love of God (Jude 20,21, 1Cor 16:15). We are to be continually hiding the word in our heart (Ps 119:11) so that we can grow in grace and add to our faith (2Pt 3:18, 1Pt 1:5). We are also to build up others in the faith (1Cor 14:12, Eph 4:29) and to provoke unto love and good works (Heb 10:24, Phil 1:27) and to assemble ourselves together (Heb 10:25) and to be under a pastor-teacher who has been given by the Lord Jesus Christ to the church so that we all can come to the unity of the faith and not be tossed around by every wind of doctrine (Eh 4:8-16). We are to be strong in grace and continue in the faith grounded and settled (2Tm 2:1, Col 1:23, 2:7) and to be steadfast and immovable and always abounding in the work of the Lord (1Cor 15:58). We are to put aside any sin or weight that would hinder us from running the race and keeping our eye on the prize (Heb 12:1,2, 1Cor 9:24, Phil 3:14), looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life (Jude 21).

 

[Scotth1960]

ehehehe.
because he wouldn't budge on Justification by Grace through Faith.
true, he was willing to keep the rest....

but everything stands or falls on that TRUTH.

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

~

Luther taught that salvation is not earned by good deeds but received only as a free gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority of the pope of the Roman Catholic Church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge[2] and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptized Christians to be a holy priesthood.[3] Those who identify with Luther's teachings are called Lutherans.

"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen"

The question is, are Luther's teachings the same as those of the Church Fathers? If the Church Fathers erred, then there was no Christian Church on earth after the age of the New Testament was over, for the Church Fathers were the only ones who were reading and interpreting the Holy Scriptures and the whole NT for the whole Orthodox Catholic Church. Which apostle of Christ denied that James is a part of the New Testament? Do you not see the seriousness of the error of Luther. He was willing to delete whole passages and verses from the New Testament to justify his use of the word "alone" in Romans 3:28, thus making Romans 3:28 contradict James 2:24. To be logically consistent, he would have to deny that St. James 's epistle was the work of an apostle of Christ. Of course, Luther disobeyed the Law of God which says not to add to Scripture, so he added the word "alone" in this chapter of Romans, thus falsifying another chapter in James. And he took away from the Scripture, by being willing to and hoping to delete James from the New Testament! Go figure!
If you say "by faith alone", you are following Martin Luther, not the NT, for the first one to ever say that was Martin Luther. No Christian, anywhere on earth, taught that before Martin Luther in 16th Century Germany.
Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[zone]

If you say "by faith alone", you are following Martin Luther, not the NT, for the first one to ever say that was Martin Luther. No Christian, anywhere on earth, taught that before Martin Luther in 16th Century Germany.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

There have been many good points on both sides of this discussion. I especially like what Eternally Grateful said, that those who believe are part of The True Church, regardless of what denomination or building they might attend. I believe in a God of Grace, the Father of the risen Lord Jesus. Such a God would not send someone to hell simply because they got some of the details wrong, even if their heart was in the right place. A God who would do something like that is not a God who deserves our worship and praise.

A few misunderstandings about Martin Luther, the man. He was a man. He made many mistakes. At the beginning of his life, he was a devout Roman Catholic, and sought to reform the Church from within. He had not intended to start a new denomination. Even the hardest-core Catholics agree that many of the practices Brother Martin tried to change desperately NEEDED changing, and most of them have, indeed, changed since then. What many of you may not know is that he became very ill towards the end of his life. He was in severe pain much of the time, and that, combined with losing the battle of saving the Church he loved so much, and wanted to reform, made him a bitter and angry man. He said many hurtful things about the Pope, out of the pain and anger at the end of his life.

Let's face it, even Paul the Apostle said some angry, bitter things. Heck, the Good Lord has said some pretty angry things (justified, of course!), but taken out of context might make someone think he's a tough old fart.

Yes, he was an anti-semite. He honestly believed that Jews were damned to hell. He was a product of his time. My mother is a staunch German Lutheran. My father is Jewish. It may have taken 400 years for the Lutheran church to rid itself of its anti-semitism, but I think we can safely say that it has moved past that time. Many Grand Wizards of the KKK were Methodist and Baptist ministers. Do we hold that against those churches? And yet that was not nearly as long ago!

Again, thanks for the lively discussion!

 

[zone]

No Christian, anywhere on earth, taught that [justification by Grace through faith alone] before Martin Luther in 16th Century Germany.

Scott:
i appreciate your testimony and your journey.
i do respect that, and your devotion and love for The Lord.

Luther will answer to God for whatever he did while translating the Bible in order to distribute the scriptures to the ordinary man, Scott. should he have added alone? no.

take out the word "alone".

does it make any difference? NONE.

you are fooling yourself if you think any men will escape answering for adding to or taking away from the Scriptures, whether by rewriting or through their TRADITIONS.

The Pharisees didn't get away with it, and neither will anyone else.

no Christian ever taught justification soley by the Grace of God through faith in the Finished Work and Person of Jesus?

i'm just stumped by this. i just can't understand how this can be believed except someone teaches it outside the scriptures.

in your search for church home you feel is right, and i believe you are totally sincere, you may have traded what you believe is the error of one man, for the errors of other men.

Paul, one Christian who did teach justification by Grace through faith; Paul, who received the Gospel directly from Jesus Christ; Saul who should have preached extensively about faith PLUS works if that were the Gospe,l in fact NEVER did any such thing, and instead warned (i.e: the Galatians) against ever entertaining the thought that justification, salvation from wrath adn the gift of eternal life come from anything other than the Sovereign Mercy and Graciousness of The Almighty.

all, ALL our righteousness is filthy rags in terms of having any standing before God at all.

after the new birth (By Grace, through Faith), once again, by the Wisdom and Sovereign Mercy and Graciousness of The Almighty through His gift of the Holy Spirit, He works our sanctification in us, and we are changed.


Verses showing justification by faith.

Justification is the legal act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his or her sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This declaration of righteousness is being justified before God. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus, "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9) where Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4). God imputed (reckoned to our account) the righteousness of Christ at the same time our sins were imputed to Christ when he was on the cross. That is why it says in 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Also, 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Additionally, we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28).

To be saved means that God has delivered us (saved us) from His righteous wrathful judgment due us because of our sins against Him. It means that we will not be judged for our sins and be therefore sentenced to eternal damnation. To be saved means that we are justified before God.

Only Christians are saved. Only Christians are justified.

The issue at hand is whether or not this salvation, this justification, is attained by faith or by faith and something else.

Following is a list of verses that show that salvation/justification is by faith.

John 3:16,
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."





Rom. 3:22,
"even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24,
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26,
"for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30,
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3,
"For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5,
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11,
"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16,
"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1,
"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9,
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30,
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 9:33,
"just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rom. 10:4,
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Rom. 10:9-10,
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 11:6,
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:16,
"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 2:21,
“I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal.3:5-6,
"Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Gal. 3:8,
"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14,
"in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22,
"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24,
"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 1:13,
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Eph. 2:8,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9,
"and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

1 Tim. 1:16,
"And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith; that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.
Conclusion

Justification is by faith. True faith is God's work (John 6:28-29), granted by God (John 1:29), and is concurrent with regeneration (2 Cor. 5:17), which God works in us by his will (John 1:13). This result of this justification and regeneration is that the sinner turns from his sin and towards doing good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor sustain it. Jesus accomplished all that we need to be saved and stay saved on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross; this is why the Bible says we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.

http://carm.org/verses-showing-justification-by-faith

 

[zone]

There have been many good points on both sides of this discussion. I especially like what Eternally Grateful said, that those who believe are part of The True Church, regardless of what denomination or building they might attend. I believe in a God of Grace, the Father of the risen Lord Jesus. Such a God would not send someone to hell simply because they got some of the details wrong, even if their heart was in the right place. A God who would do something like that is not a God who deserves our worship and praise.

A few misunderstandings about Martin Luther, the man. He was a man. He made many mistakes. At the beginning of his life, he was a devout Roman Catholic, and sought to reform the Church from within. He had not intended to start a new denomination. Even the hardest-core Catholics agree that many of the practices Brother Martin tried to change desperately NEEDED changing, and most of them have, indeed, changed since then. What many of you may not know is that he became very ill towards the end of his life. He was in severe pain much of the time, and that, combined with losing the battle of saving the Church he loved so much, and wanted to reform, made him a bitter and angry man. He said many hurtful things about the Pope, out of the pain and anger at the end of his life.

Let's face it, even Paul the Apostle said some angry, bitter things. Heck, the Good Lord has said some pretty angry things (justified, of course!), but taken out of context might make someone think he's a tough old fart.

Yes, he was an anti-semite. He honestly believed that Jews were damned to hell. He was a product of his time. My mother is a staunch German Lutheran. My father is Jewish. It may have taken 400 years for the Lutheran church to rid itself of its anti-semitism, but I think we can safely say that it has moved past that time. Many Grand Wizards of the KKK were Methodist and Baptist ministers. Do we hold that against those churches? And yet that was not nearly as long ago!

Again, thanks for the lively discussion!

this is a favorite myth about Luther: that he always spoke that way, and was motivated all along by by antisemitism (which some even use as a way to claim he taught antinomianism as a sort of twisted revenge).

he started out being a great defender of jews, and respectful of what he thought was judaism.

then he found The Talmud.

check the facts yourself.

 

[SantoSubito]

Scott:
i appreciate your testimony and your journey.
i do respect that, and your devotion and love for The Lord.

Luther will answer to God for whatever he did while translating the Bible in order to distribute the scriptures to the ordinary man, Scott. should he have added alone? no.

take out the word "alone".

does it make any difference? NONE.

you are fooling yourself if you think any men will escape answering for adding to or taking away from the Scriptures, whether by rewriting or through their TRADITIONS.

The Pharisees didn't get away with it, and neither will anyone else.

no Christian ever taught justification soley by the Grace of God through faith in the Finished Work and Person of Jesus?

i'm just stumped by this. i just can't understand how this can be believed except someone teaches it outside the scriptures.

in your search for church home you feel is right, and i believe you are totally sincere, you may have traded what you believe is the error of one man, for the errors of other men.

Paul, one Christian who did teach justification by Grace through faith; Paul, who received the Gospel directly from Jesus Christ; Saul who should have preached extensively about faith PLUS works if that were the Gospe,l in fact NEVER did any such thing, and instead warned (i.e: the Galatians) against ever entertaining the thought that justification, salvation from wrath adn the gift of eternal life come from anything other than the Sovereign Mercy and Graciousness of The Almighty.

all, ALL our righteousness is filthy rags in terms of having any standing before God at all.

after the new birth (By Grace, through Faith), once again, by the Wisdom and Sovereign Mercy and Graciousness of The Almighty through His gift of the Holy Spirit, He works our sanctification in us, and we are changed.


Verses showing justification by faith.

Justification is the legal act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his or her sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This declaration of righteousness is being justified before God. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus, "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9) where Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4). God imputed (reckoned to our account) the righteousness of Christ at the same time our sins were imputed to Christ when he was on the cross. That is why it says in 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Also, 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Additionally, we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28).

To be saved means that God has delivered us (saved us) from His righteous wrathful judgment due us because of our sins against Him. It means that we will not be judged for our sins and be therefore sentenced to eternal damnation. To be saved means that we are justified before God.

Only Christians are saved. Only Christians are justified.

The issue at hand is whether or not this salvation, this justification, is attained by faith or by faith and something else.

Following is a list of verses that show that salvation/justification is by faith.

John 3:16,
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."





Rom. 3:22,
"even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24,
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26,
"for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30,
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3,
"For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5,
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11,
"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16,
"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1,
"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9,
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30,
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 9:33,
"just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rom. 10:4,
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Rom. 10:9-10,
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 11:6,
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:16,
"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 2:21,
“I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal.3:5-6,
"Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Gal. 3:8,
"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14,
"in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22,
"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24,
"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 1:13,
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Eph. 2:8,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9,
"and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

1 Tim. 1:16,
"And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith; that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.
Conclusion

Justification is by faith. True faith is God's work (John 6:28-29), granted by God (John 1:29), and is concurrent with regeneration (2 Cor. 5:17), which God works in us by his will (John 1:13). This result of this justification and regeneration is that the sinner turns from his sin and towards doing good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor sustain it. Jesus accomplished all that we need to be saved and stay saved on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross; this is why the Bible says we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.

http://carm.org/verses-showing-justification-by-faith

I'm gonna rip a page out of the Sola Scriptura play book here. I don't see the word "alone" in any of those verses. In fact as you no doubt know the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together in the whole Bible is when the words "not by" is inserted before them.

By the way I've been on the CARM forums before; mostly just to drop in on faith alone discussions like I did here, but still it was fun. They seem to have an unhealthy hatred of Catholicism there as well since the Catholic forum is by far the most popular one on that site. Which is odd because ranting against Catholicism on a forum where none, but the most humor minded Catholics frequent is basically just preaching to the choir.

 

[zone]

I'm gonna rip a page out of the Sola Scriptura play book here. I don't see the word "alone" in any of those verses. In fact as you no doubt know the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together in the whole Bible is when the words "not by" is inserted before them.

By the way I've been on the CARM forums before; mostly just to drop in on faith alone discussions like I did here, but still it was fun. They seem to have an unhealthy hatred of Catholicism there as well since the Catholic forum is by far the most popular one on that site. Which is odd because ranting against Catholicism on a forum where none, but the most humor minded Catholics frequent is basically just preaching to the choir.

ehehe. ya i know.
that's the point.

the word alone is out. even if it were put back in, it makes NO DIFFERENCE.

i don't know the site Santo. i've only ever taken a few pages from it (i did read one guy on another forum trashing matt slick for saying something to the effect that God is separate from his creation. aside from that, i don't know more.)

when i search for helps with the subject at hand, i find what i'm looking for (if its not already in my files), be sure i affirm what it says, and source it...in this case i agree completely with the article.

ranting against Catholicism is like in Canada it's a national pastime to "hate on" Torontodunno why. too much time on our hands maybe...hehe.

no secret i have issues with the Papacy and dogma but i like catholics just fine: even still...the invitation always stands - c'mon over (i'll make tea and we can have cookies):

zonest

 

[kujo313]

What does the pastor of the congregation teach? Does he point towards Christ alone?

Christians point towards Christ. Proudful people point towards denominations and such. To say that in order to follow Christ you must join a certain group of people is wrong.

People of today don't say "I worship over here". Instead, they say that they are a certain religion. If you're not part of "their" religion, then you are not going to Heaven nor are a brother or sister of theirs.

In the subject of "protestant" vs "catholic", many protestants call statues "graven images". They do not bow before them nor do they pray to the person that the statue represents. Instead, they bow before God and pray to God.

Those who say that THAT is wrong, IS wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear eternally grateful,
I was catechized in the Lutheran faith.
So I can't say I studied it personally. I just accepted what they told me.
They had me read Luther's catechisms, and later, on my own, I read the Lutheran "Book of Concord". I got bored with Lutheranism, and heard about the Assemblies of God in the "Handbook of Denominations". It was interesting to me, so I became a AG Pentecostal for a few years. Later, I became disenchanted with speaking in tongues, and I was especially needing to repent, but I was superficial. Only time and experience have brought me to the point where I am really repenting and not doing the same sins I used to do. I am struggling to avoid bad thoughts and bad behaviors. I am praying for forgiveness when I have an inappropriate thought. Anyway, every Sunday when I was in Lutheran "church", I, in ignorance, recited the creed as saying "who proceeds from the Father" and the Son. I had never personally studied the Bible to see what the Bible itself says about the procession of the Holy Spirit. I read "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Gillquist, and he pointed out in his excellent book what John 15:26 says. So then I got out all my Bibles, and in each Bible in my collection, they all said, "who proceeds from the Father". The Lutherans were wrong! They added the words "and the Son."
This caused another crisis of faith in me. How can a church that claims to be from God get such a doctrine in their very church creed wrong? So I could no longer believe this. It was a paradox. I was still in my local Lutheran congregation there with my parents, and I was saying "who proceeds from the Father", while the rest of the Lutherans were saying "who proceeds from the Father" and the Son. Thus, I was in disunity with my fellow Lutherans. I could not in good conscience remain a Lutheran. And I also learned my charismatic renewal from the Assemblies of God was defective. So I had to give up Pentecostalism as well. So now, I am in transition, and have been attending a few time the local Russian Orthodox Church. It is a better experience than I had at a Greek Orthodox Church, where they follow Greek traditions and the service is mostly in Greek. So I couldn't get into that. It is okay for them to worship in Greek. But if Eastern Orthodoxy is going to grow in America, it will have to resolve the language problem and conduct its Divine Liturgy in English, a language that most of the American people can understand. Take care.
God bless you.
Scott

Wow Scott,

I hear alot of former Lutherans or other churches like this who have went to the roman faith. I find it easy to understand why. If your in a church which only has a few of the "sacraments" one does to try to earn salvation. I would much rather be in a church which has alot more of the "sacraments" I would feel much more secure in my eternity. The problem is these "sacraments" people are doing to try to earn their salvation will not do what you want them to do. As scripture says. Many in that day (the day of judgment) will say, But Lord, I did all these things in your name, The lord will say depart for I never knew you. Satan worked for years to get the jews to believe the works of the law is what saved them. He did the same thing with the church. The difference is it is not the works of the law that these churches are doing to be saved, it is the works, or sacraments of the church. These works will do no more to save anyone than the works of the law.

As for the pentecostal route. I understand. My Aunt did the same, When she faked tongues (because she felt out of place) and someone interpreted what she said. She knew it was a fake and left. Thank God!

PS Actually I didn't misrepresent Scripture. I just pointed out that "faith without works" is dead. Not that faith is not necessary. But James 2:24 says salvation doesn't come by faith alone. A saved person will always have good works as the fruit of saving faith. Anyway, dear friend, what do you mean by "NEC"? What is "the NEC book?" Just wondering. Always, Scott

You misinterpreted romans 2: 10 And in James, I know what it says. do you understand what a "dead" faith is? How much faith would be considered a "dead faith" can A dead faith save you? why not?

The NEC is the "national Electric Code" It is the "Bible" for electricians.

P

S You falsely assume that I follow men. But where does your doctrine come from? It comes from some men. All people get their preaching from men. It all depends whether the men obtain the tradition of God, or the tradition of men. The tradition of God comes from men of God in the Church of God, the Orthodox Church. The traditions of men comes from papal Rome after 1014 AD and from Rome's orphaned children, the Protestants of the Reformation. So, if your tradition agrees with anything Protestant, it is from men, not from men of God, but men who innovate and preach errors. True traditions come from a fellowship of Christians in communion with a local Orthodox bishop.
I am just in process of coming into communion with Russian Orthodoxy, and have not yet completed my journey. I have just attended a few times.
My process is studying Orthodox Church writings on my own at this point of the way.

Wow, You hardly answered anything I said. Why is this?

Where does my doctrine come from? It comes from God. Why? Because God spent a few thousand years giving me his instruction book (the Bible) An I study it. When I hear a man (Even the teacher in my church) speak about Gods word. I also study what he said to make sure it lines up with his word. This is why I left the church I grew up in. I found many of the doctrines they attempted to teach me were in error. Because they, like many, take verses out of context. and force their belief on the word of God, not make their belief match the word of God. This is what the jews did in Christ's time. If they would have opened up their hearts. they would have seen who Christ was. But they did not because they were blinded by tradition and pride. And they thought they had inerrant interpretation of Gods word. Sound familiar?

As far as studying the orthodox church. Try studying the word of God. This is more important than studying any denominational creeds. For it is the only thing that will help you. It is Gods instruction book.