Is the Devil bound right now...?

[Bookends]

I should of empathize more here on "being caught up in the air"

caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Interesting read:
So far, so good. But how did this teaching of the apostle Paul ever come to be called the Rapture? The answer lies in the word translated "shall be caught up" (Greek harpagésómetha). In Latin, this word is rapere, from which "rapture" is derived. Free of any arcane or mysterious interpretation, it simply means "to be caught up," "snatched" or "seized."

The trouble begins when people confuse this meaning with another definition of rapture that has nothing to do with the biblical concept: "a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion; a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things." When people blur these meanings, a picture develops of a strange, otherworldly experience preached by fire-breathing preachers to compel sinners to repent before God's wrath burns them to cinders.

To avoid this connotation, the church has in the recent past used other words to describe this future event: "Christ's second coming," "when we are changed," and most often, "the first resurrection." These euphemisms serve a good purpose in distancing the church from groups that hold unscriptural beliefs on this topic.

The Common Belief

Those who teach the Rapture frequently begin with I Thessalonians 4:16-17, but soon afterward they move into areas unsupported in the Bible. They make assumptions that are suspect. Worst, they fail to consider the clear order of events presented in Revelation, pinpointing when this astounding miracle will occur.

What do they believe? They believe that at some point in the near future, Jesus Christ will return and "snatch away" all Christians on the earth. Those who believe in Jesus will rise to meet Him in the air, and He will whisk them off to heaven for a 3½-to-seven-year Marriage Supper. In the meantime here on earth, untold destruction occurs when professing "born-again Christians" suddenly vanish while at the controls of cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, heavy equipment and the like. "Unsaved" relatives and friends will frantically and unsuccessfully search for their raptured loved ones. The media will provide 24-hour coverage of the mysterious disappearance of millions of people, speculating wildly on its cause—everything from a mass alien abduction to shifting dimensions and levels of consciousness.

Does this sound like something our God would do?

On the other hand, the church's understanding of the first resurrection is more straightforward. On the day Christ returns to earth to establish His Kingdom, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and converted will follow. They will meet Him in the air and immediately return to earth as a vast army of spirit beings to defeat the Beast and False Prophet in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Revelation 19:14; Joel 3:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-5).

Notice two vast differences in these scenarios:

» The Protestant Rapture takes place either 3½ or seven years before Christ's return, while the church believes it will occur at His second coming. For this reason, the Protestant concept is often called the "Pre-tribulation Rapture" and our view, the "Post-tribulation Rapture."

» When believers are "caught up" in the air, Protestants believe, they will go immediately to heaven for a long, spectacular feast. We believe, though, that the saints will return to earth to fight in Christ's heavenly army and to help establish God's Kingdom.

Succinctly, then, the two differences are in timing and destination.

A Question of When

When this event occurs is the key to understanding the Rapture. If the timing is off, the sequence of events will not make sense, and this is what happens with a Pre-tribulation Rapture. To make the Rapture fit, other events must be juggled to new positions, and verifying scriptures must be wrenched out of context to substantiate it.

The most abused verse on the subject of the end times is Daniel 9:27, and it is a linchpin in the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory: "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." Unlike the Protestants, we believe that "he" in this verse refers to Messiah, not Antichrist, for the main subject of this section is Messiah. (Request our December 1994 article, "Seventy Weeks Are Determined . . .," for further information.)

Protestants, referring to Isaiah 28:15 and "a covenant with death," say that the Antichrist makes a peace treaty for one week—seven years—with the Jews. But this makes no sense! Why would the Beast "destroy the city [Jerusalem] and the sanctuary" (Daniel 9:26), and "then . . . confirm a covenant . . . for one week" (verse 27) with the vanquished Jews? The timing is wrong! Verses 26-27a speak of events that occurred in the first century.

It makes more sense to attribute this covenant to our Savior. He was "cut off, but not for Himself" (verse 26a) by His redemptive death in AD 31. He had spent 3½ years "confirm[ing] a covenant [the New Covenant] with many," and "in the middle of the week He [brought] an end to sacrifice and offering" (verse 27a) by the sacrifice of His perfect life. This simply restates what is said in verse 26a.

If this is the case, the whole idea of seven years of tribulation vanishes. Many Pre-tribulationists have begun to realize this, now claiming that the Rapture will occur 3½ years before Christ's return. How can we show that this is not when it will happen?

The Last Trumpet

We find the answer right in the context of I Thessalonians 4; in fact, Paul mentions the exact timing twice! In verse 15 Paul says that this occurs at "the coming of the Lord," and in verse 16 Christ "descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." To combat these clear time markers, Protestants have to say that Christ returns twice and that there are two different blowings of the trumpet!

Paul himself quashes this argument in I Corinthians 15:50-52:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I Corinthians 15:50-52 is parallel to I Thessalonians 4:15-17. The phrase "the kingdom of God" in I Corinthians parallels "the coming of the Lord" in I Thessalonians. Likewise, "the last trumpet" parallels "the trumpet of God." The last trumpet announces both the resurrection of the saints and Christ's triumphant return to earth to set up His Kingdom!

We must go to Revelation 11:15-18 to confirm when the last trumpet sounds:

Then the seventh angel sounded [his trumpet]: And there were loud voices [shouts? of archangels?] in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty-four elders . . . worshiped God, saying: "We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

This prophecy adds even more to the mix. This last—seventh—trumpet announces the coming of Christ, the establishment of God's Kingdom, the judgment upon the nations, and the rewarding of the saints. They occur simultaneously!

The last trumpet sounds when Christ returns, not 3½ years before! If we compare verses 11-13 (the resurrection of the Two Witnesses) with verse 19, the "great earthquake" ties the resurrection of the saints with the beginning of the Kingdom (see also Revelation 16:18). In addition, an angel tells John in Revelation 10:7 that when "the seventh angel . . . is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished." There will be no more mystery about man becoming God when the saints are resurrected or changed to eternal spirit beings!

Matthew 24:30-31 also verifies this scenario, showing that the trumpet sounds to send the angels to gather the elect from all over the earth to meet Him upon His return. To clinch the argument, verse 29 very plainly says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days. . ."! Isaiah 27:12-13, Joel 2:1-11 and Zechariah 14:3-5, 9 also confirm these events.

Destination: Earth!

The second difference between the teaching of the church and the Protestants' view is the matter of the eventual destination of those who rise to meet Christ in the air. Is it up to heaven or back to earth?

Much of the Protestant view is based on an assumption. Because Paul writes, "And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (I Thessalonians 4:17), they assume that since Christ lives in heaven, the changed saints will too. But is this assumption valid?

We have shown elsewhere that the reward of the saved is eternal life as kings and priests ruling and teaching here on earth (Revelation 5:10). But where will the saints go at the moment of Christ's return? The clearest verses that show Christians immediately returning with our King to the earth are Zechariah 14:3-5, 9:

Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. . . . Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You [Him, margin]. . . . And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. (See I Thessalonians 3:13.)

If our Savior is going to rule "over all the earth," the saints will have to settle for earth too!

Protestants also use John 14:2-3 to "prove" that the saints go to heaven:

In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Here, too, they make assumptions, such as understanding "house" only as a dwelling, rather than as a family or dynasty. Thus, they narrowly define place as "an ornate abode, a mansion or palace" instead of a "position," "office," "role" or "spot." If this is the case, it is a good thing that Jesus was a carpenter while He lived on earth! He must be doing a lot of work preparing all those mansions!

Seriously, however, they gloss over the fact that Jesus says directly in this context that He would "come again." Where? To earth! He then says He will receive the saints to Himself. If He remains on earth to rule the nations, then the saints will rule with Him on the earth! Many scriptures show very plainly that God's Kingdom will be on the earth (Psalm 2:6-8; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 2:35, 44-45; 7:27; Zechariah 9:9-10; Revelation 11:15).

After the saints are resurrected, full-fledged members of the God Family, they may be able to go from earth to God's throne in the third heaven. They will live and work, though, on the earth. After the Millennium has passed and the White Throne Judgment is complete, the Father Himself will descend from heaven to make the new earth His dwelling place (Revelation 21:3, 22; 22:1-5)!

Earth is where the action is!

Good job showing the errors of dispensationalism. However, I don't believe Revelation and Mathew 24 is about our future and physical second coming of Christ, but rather is coming in Judgment against Jerusalem.

Possible errors: Paul never said the last trumpet was the seventh trumpet. Stating that Paul's "last trumpet" and John's "seventh trumpet" is one in the same is an assumption.

Mathew 24 is about the coming of Christ in Judgment against Jerusalem and abolishing the center of the Jewish form of an earthly temple worship system, follow the context. 4 major biblical points I'm going to make to support my position:

1. Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Here Jesus directly makes the comment about the current standing temple which is the center of Jewish society and their worship system. Jesus predicts it will be destroyed. Jesus' disciples are taken a back and ask when will this be, what sign will be given, and went will be the end of the AGE? "Aion", not world which would in "Oikoumene". This is the context of the whole passage.

2. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

Nobody lives on their housetops anymore, Jerusalem is modernized now and they all have air condition. The reason people went to the housetop was to escape the heat of the day. This fits for 1 century Jerusalem and Christ's immediate audience. When I ask pre-tribs or even futurist (amils, carolb, no offense intented) about why Jesus would mention "housetops" I get either no answer or a stumbling one. EG, I was never satisfied with your answer, it seemed like you were reaching (they can't admit this is an error in their eschatology system).

3. 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Why would traveling, fleeing, be a big issue today? Jesus tells his disciples that when they see the signs to "get the hell out of dodge" (pardon the Gunsmoke expression). With today's modern conveniences (motorcycles, cars, ATMs, motels) and stores it wouldn't be as hard to flee in the winter. We all could flee rather quickly and survive a short time without too much trouble. But back then, there was no prepackaged food nor any left-overs in the dead of winter, the fields of produce would be bare and no food available for a quick flight.

Why pray not the Sabbath? This is a more convincing argument, because if the day of their (1st century Christians in Jerusalem) flight came on a Sabbath they wouldn't be able to get out for the gates of Jerusalem were closed on the Sabbath. They would not be able to flee and would be stuck. The other account of the Olivet discourse in Luke states that when you see the armies coming to surround their city of Jerusalem is the time to flee to the mountains (history records they did just that). In today's world you won't see armies coming, you'll see planes or ICBM's with nuclear warheads coming first.

4. Last main point: 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

This is the only place in Matthew where pre-tribs and futurist change the meaning of "this generation". They change it to fit their eschatology system. This statement by Christ is recorded 6 other times in Matthew; Read Matt. 12:41, 42 and 45, Matt. 16:4, 17:17, 23:36 and they pertain the audience in whom Jesus is talking too. Not one futurist I encountered said these are to be taken as our future but they pertain to the Jews in that time. Not to just mention this phrase "this generation", but Jesus also put the nail in the coffin and stated to those in ear shot that they would not see death till all these things happen. HELLO! anyone HOME?

These are context verses I have given, and common sense arguments for Matt. 24. being directed at those 1st century believers (disciples), and not to applied to our future. I could make similar arguments regarding Revelations being mostly about the destruction of Jerusalem of the 1st century. But it would be rather lengthy and eat up my time. The problem is IMHO, that pre-triber and futurist don't understand the language of prophecy (de-creation language) used through out the bible, and the result is a highly imaginable interesting fantasy which sells a lot of books and movies.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But then they discovered that the Old Testament was full of such references. Consider Peter's speeches in Acts. Neither Peter nor Paul (nor James in Acts 15) found it difficult to find Old Testament references to the first coming of Jesus.

Well of course the OT had many references of the suffering servant, who would suffer for his people. who would die for the sins of his people.

The problem is, the suffering servant and messiah could not be seen as the same person, It is the hidden mystery paul spoke of.

Soooo? This is a reference to the first coming of Jesus Who would be crowned after His resurrection as the Davidic king ruling over His eternal kingdom. We on earth share His throne (EPh 2.5-6) while also do the saints in heaven (Rev 20.4-5) It is being established and upheld and the zeal of the Lord of hosts is performing it.

Negative, Nothing in this prophesy has been fulfilled yet. It is still a prophetic event awaiting fulfillment, Davids throne is in jerusalem, Not in heaven, Nice try though.

And this is precisely what Jesus has been doing for the last 2000 years and is doing now.

Wow. He is? He is not a very good king is he, 2 world wars where million of people have been slaughtered, Evil dictators where you have horrors happening every day which would make you sick if you saw them, Sex trade where young ladies are kidnapped Sent to other countries and sold for sex. A church which went away from his teachings, and slaughters probably thousands in the name of God. Another church which rebelled against that church and was really not that much better. I can go on and on about all the evil that has been going on this earth for the last 2000 years. and is getting worse not better. and yuo want me to believe this has all occured under Jesus watch and his ruling the nations on Davids throne??

Thanks but no thanks. Yuo can have that kingdom. I will take the kingdom as shown in the OT. where non of those things will happen, or be able to happen, because the lord rules with a rod of iron

And that is precisely what Jesus Christ is accomplishing NOW.

tell that to people like Saddam Heusain, Hiltler, Musolini, Lenin, The many roman ceasars (popes) who followed after Christ departed this earth. All the chinese dictators the dictators of the soviet union, the evil men in Japan pre WW2. etc etc.

Yep. Christ sure has a ruling hold on this earth, and everyone is sure following his righteous rule.

which is what they are doing. They are going to Jerusalem which is in heaven (Gal 4.20 ff; Heb 12.20-22)

You did not read did you. No it is not what they are doing, because they are not even around yet. What nations have attacked jerusalem? And are going to worship the king? People do not go to heaven to worship Jesus what do they have a space ship?

Dude, if you want me to even give your believe a consideration, at least start thinking properly. and stop making up stories of people flying in spaceships so they can go to heaven, and worship the king.

Why would God promise if they did not come and worship him he would punish them by causing a droubt in their nation?

zech 14:[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the Lord will send a plague on all the nations that fought against Jerusalem. Their people will become like walking corpses, their flesh rotting away. Their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. [SUP]13 [/SUP]On that day they will be terrified, stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will fight their neighbors hand to hand. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Judah, too, will be fighting at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the neighboring nations will be captured—great quantities of gold and silver and fine clothing. [SUP]15 [/SUP]This same plague will strike the horses, mules, camels, donkeys, and all the other animals in the enemy camps.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the end, the enemies of Jerusalem who survive the plague will go up to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, and to celebrate the Festival of Shelters.[SUP]

17 [/SUP]Any nation in the world that refuses to come to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, will have no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the people of Egypt refuse to attend the festival, the Lord will punish[SUP][e][/SUP] them with the same plague that he sends on the other nations who refuse to go. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Egypt and the other nations will all be punished if they don’t go to celebrate the Festival of Shelters.

Yep. this is all in heaven..So how are people going to be evil in heaven? I thought there would be no more sin in the eternal kingdom with the new Jerusalem, that we would not be need of rain, or anything.. So how could this be heaven?? if all of this occures after the lord returns. It is not happening now.

Remember what the angel said. The lord will return to earth, just the way you saw him depart..

Why return if your not going to do anything?

Lets try to get this rapped up. before we go any further, if yuo can't understand this, nothing else will make sense either.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Back to my question to Valiant, do we need Satan after the fall to be inherently evil? I think not. Read Psalm 2, it applies to today's age (especially to 1st century Christians), no mention of Satan. If you had all the news clips from before Christ how do you know it wouldn't be as bad or worse? The media magnifies the evil. Not all the evil done in the days before Christ was record or preserved, I can bet on that!

Thanks, you just proved how satan is not bound, Evil still occurs. Even if you believe it was not as bad (How I can't fathom but I will give you leeway) you still have satan being instrumental in the powers of the earth. Where do you think they get their power? God said from the ruler of the earth, if the evil did not stop. then Satan could not have stopped.

Yes, Scripture states that, but that doesn't mean your interpretation is right. I believe what this referring to God's kingdom on earth now. Neighbor will not have to teach neighbor does not mean we don't need teachers, it means we don't need a priestly system in order to hear the Word of God like in the OT. We have the bible and the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean God doesn't gift people with teaching others.

And lion laying down with the lamb is also referring to God Kingdom on earth, for once I was a lion, in rebellion against my father and Heavenly Father, but once I embraced the faith I was at peace with my Dad and God. It describes a picture of those who were once at odds but now at peace. This is what happens when people become Children of God, we love each other and those who were once our enemies.

So we take a prophesy, Which God uses to prove he is God and not like the pagan Gods, and make it an allegory.

Sorry I can not do that. That would be twisting scripture and making it fit my belief system, and not make my belief system fit scripture

I like to take God at his word.

He said Jesus would come 69 weeks after, He did, He said he would be cut off, he was. He said there would be 4 great gentile kingdoms who would have an affect on jerusalem, There were (and still are)

All his prophesies have come true as said, why should he change the way he fulfills prophesy.

EG, there is no mention of this in the NT. Psalm 110 tells the conditions of Jesus' reign, I urge you to re-read it. The scripture also says the rain falls on the just as well as the unjust. Punishment (not discipline) , God's wrath, comes at the end, and there is no escaping it.

Psalm 110;
The Lord said to my Lord,[SUP][a][/SUP]
“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”

Still going on today, His enemies are not yet a footstool. So he is still sitting, waiting.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem[SUP][b][/SUP];
you will rule over your enemies.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]When you go to war,
your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew

hmm, So when did our lord go to war over and overcome his enemies?

Oh Wait, I know. Jesus spoke of it in matt 24, when he returns to earth.

Sorry bro. Scripture is a Logos. It is one book with one main theme, it all must come together in an orderly fashion and not contradict.. This psalm did not do as you thought it would. it actually supports a future kingdom, which we are still waiting for. when the lord Goes to war and his people willingly go with him . Not something that occurred 2000 years ago. When the lord sat at the right hand of God waiting for that time to go to war.

(jesus said of that day an how no man knows, only the father of heaven knows. That is why he is sitting at the right hand of the father, waiting. Until his time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Back to my question to Valiant, do we need Satan after the fall to be inherently evil? I think not. Read Psalm 2, it applies to today's age (especially to 1st century Christians), no mention of Satan.
I really hate replying to multiple topics in one chat box, whatever you call it.

Psalm 2
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The king proclaims the Lord’s decree:
“The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son.[SUP][b][/SUP]
Today I have become your Father.[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Only ask, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance,
the whole earth as your possession.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You will break[SUP][d][/SUP] them with an iron rod
and smash them like clay pots.’”


[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now then, you kings, act wisely!
Be warned, you rulers of the earth!
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Serve the Lord with reverent fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Submit to God’s royal son,[SUP][e][/SUP] or he will become angry,
and you will be destroyed in the midst of all your activities—
for his anger flares up in an instant.
But what joy for all who take refuge in him!



Yep, this is occurring today, and has for the last 2000 years.

Again my friend, How yuo can read this and even think this has been going on, just baffles my mind. I can not twist Gods word and make it say things it does not say, I will take God at his word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Someone bound to a Jail cell can still walk around within the cell, and talk with others, have visitors and write letters. Being bound doesn't mean taken out completely.

Someone who is bound can not walk around and seek who he may devour. It does not say that demons and rulers of this world will go to satan and tell him who he needs to take out and satan orders a battle against them, It is a warning to you and me to be on our guard, because satan is creeping around us trying to take everyone of us out.

Come one man. are you serious? A bottomless pit is not jail. And I doubt god will let Satan have any visitors. You have to read so much into a verse of scripture to even think of what your trying to get me to believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is both, John states his book is symbolic from the very beginning of it....but I'll forgive you for being wrong ~...Prophetic language is very symbolic and that is the difference between us I guess. God uses earthly images to portray spiritual truths thought the whole bible.

I will forgive you for yet again taking things that should be simple and making them so complicated.

God uses symbolic things (like beasts) to resemble literal events and people. Not symbolic events and symbolic things.

Revelation is no different than daniel. Literal events were spoken of and God used symbolic names and things to try to explain to us these literal events which would take place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]You are mixing two passages here, one Jesus is referring to the end of the Jewish system of centralized temple worship. The other Paul states the 2nd physical coming of Christ in which I believe He'll ushering the eternal state and hand everything back over to the Father.About the end of what Jesus is talking about, the end of what? the end could be the end of the Jewish system, which if you pay close attention to the context, that's exactly what he is talking about. There are many ends, when you are in your 90s, you'll be in your end of days. [/B][/COLOR]Yah, at the physical second coming, not the end of Jerusalem and temple worship.

ok this was all jumbled together in one paragraph and was hard to read but I will try.

what are they saved from? Your not making sense, Living until the end of the jewish system is not saving anyone, And many dies because of prophesing the christ after this system. so who lived? why did jesus say they will live if they did not? what purpose? what reason> saved from what?

This does not make any sense, In both passages he is speaking of the end of the age, when he returns, and whose who alive at that time, enduring through hell. If you do, you will be saved (not eternal salvation, like many want to claim, but physically saved, to enter the kingdom)

Already fulfilled in the time between Daniels prophecy and Christ's coming..Christians like to skip over history to apply prophecy to the future, makes it more exciting I guess. I would urge you to look up Jay Adams and his teaching on Daniel, and it will clear it up for you (best I every heard on Daniel, imo). That is if you're willing entertain a valid and biblical position that's goes against what you think is true. [/B][/COLOR]True, God's people aren't appointed to God's wrath, but man's wrath we are subjected to for those against God hate us. When God wrath comes, He will save us, we will meet Him in the air as He comes down with the saint (who passed on) and then continue down to a new heaven and new earth. The wicked will be taken out. This is the plain teaching of the bible.
We'll have eternal rest when He comes again. Why would my Dad who is with the Lord now in bliss want to return to earth were sin, death and struggle still exists, even at a limited amount? makes no sense to me.

lol.. I have read almost every teaching on Daniel that was ever written. I have spent decades studying prophesy (history and prophesy happen to be my favorite subjects)

That is how you study to shew yourself approved, you do not just blindly read something you biew only, and ignore everyone elses, and make it fit your belief, you study, test, and then make a learned decision on what you want to believe.

Daniel said the lord, at his coming would crush the gentile kingdoms, and wipe out every thing that even would remind the world of their power and glory.

Still waiting on that to happen. So no. it has not been fulfilled. When it happens, I am sure we all will know. for their will be no doubt.

Prophesy does not work if the fulfillment is in doubt prophesy only works if fulfillment has no doubt. when I see the symbol, the government and the ways of the beast of daniel still in control of the world today, There is doubt it happened. When I see jerusalem under gentile control. I see doubt it has happened, When I see wars and rumors of wars. I know the end is not near, and the abomination of desolation has not yet occured.

There is so much against the belief that daniels prophesies are fulfilled. I just can not say, ok, I will change, because maybe this happened this way, and maybe that happened that way.

Sorry bro. Can't do it.

 

[Bookends]

Thanks, you just proved how satan is not bound, Evil still occurs. Even if you believe it was not as bad (How I can't fathom but I will give you leeway) you still have satan being instrumental in the powers of the earth. Where do you think they get their power? God said from the ruler of the earth, if the evil did not stop. then Satan could not have stopped.

Thanks for your response. I'll only respond to this atm for lack of time. I proved no such thing EG, I think I clearly made my case that sense the fall, man does not need Satan to be inherently evil. Since the fall it has been our nature to be at war with God until He breaks us. God gives Satan his power and whatever power Satan's minions have are all from God. Satan can do nothing unless God allows it, the story of Job demonstrates this. Satan and his minions are not omnipresent like God, much of the evil done in the world is not, IMHO, not directly from Satan or his minions but rather from the proudful hardened heart of men. In the Garden it is interesting that God does hold all 3, Adam, Eve, and Satan responsible for the fall of man. But I'm not saying Satan and his minions can't influence, I'm also not saying Satan is completely out of the picture either, but rather I'm saying his power is limited in what he can do now. These limitations are placed on him from God. In Revelation, God releases Him from pit to reek havok on the people God is judging. See, God is using the nature of Satan to punish and destroy these people. Of coarse you know my view on who these people are, but that does change the fact that God is in control and uses Satan for His purposes (not matter what your view is on who is being punished/destroyed). In Psalm 2 in which I directed you, it said the nations and the people raged against God and wanted to cut His cords place upon them. While Satan I believe indirectly is the cause of this due to the fall, it is the evil heart of man that God holds directly responsible and it is the kings of the earth and the people God is addressing, not Satan. It is also very interesting that the disciples quoted this psalm written by David, in their prayer and in which they applied fulfillment of psalm 2 to their day and age in Acts 4. Go read it.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by carolb

I should of empathize more here on "being caught up in the air"

caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Interesting read:
So far, so good. But how did this teaching of the apostle Paul ever come to be called the Rapture? The answer lies in the word translated "shall be caught up" (Greek harpagésómetha). In Latin, this word is rapere, from which "rapture" is derived. Free of any arcane or mysterious interpretation, it simply means "to be caught up," "snatched" or "seized."

The trouble begins when people confuse this meaning with another definition of rapture that has nothing to do with the biblical concept: "a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion; a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things." When people blur these meanings, a picture develops of a strange, otherworldly experience preached by fire-breathing preachers to compel sinners to repent before God's wrath burns them to cinders.

To avoid this connotation, the church has in the recent past used other words to describe this future event: "Christ's second coming," "when we are changed," and most often, "the first resurrection." These euphemisms serve a good purpose in distancing the church from groups that hold unscriptural beliefs on this topic.

The Common Belief

Those who teach the Rapture frequently begin with I Thessalonians 4:16-17, but soon afterward they move into areas unsupported in the Bible.

I make no statements whatsoever outside the scope and declarations of the word of God. I challenge you to produce anything. You statement is boggus.

They make assumptions that are suspect. Worst, they fail to consider the clear order of events presented in Revelation, pinpointing when this astounding miracle will occur.

Not at all. In fact your thesis DEPENDS on your ability to omit the verses pretrib stands on. You have no scriptural basis for 99% of what you say.

What do they believe? They believe that at some point in the near future, Jesus Christ will return and "snatch away" all Christians on the earth. Those who believe in Jesus will rise to meet Him in the air, and He will whisk them off to heaven for a 3½-to-seven-year Marriage Supper. In the meantime here on earth, untold destruction occurs when professing "born-again Christians" suddenly vanish while at the controls of cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, heavy equipment and the like. "Unsaved" relatives and friends will frantically and unsuccessfully search for their raptured loved ones. The media will provide 24-hour coverage of the mysterious disappearance of millions of people, speculating wildly on its cause—everything from a mass alien abduction to shifting dimensions and levels of consciousness.

Close,but not quite. You get a c- for that. Could be the only part of your thesis that is not 100% misrepresentation of my self and God's word.

Does this sound like something our God would do?

Whether a good thing or a bad thing would depend on what side of God you stand. I will leave you to judging God's motives and actions.

On the other hand, the church's understanding of the first resurrection is more straightforward. On the day Christ returns to earth to establish His Kingdom, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and converted will follow. They will meet Him in the air and immediately return to earth as a vast army of spirit beings to defeat the Beast and False Prophet in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Revelation 19:14; Joel 3:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-5).

Uh,no,you fabricated that in the face of scripture that have no such uturn. Jesus gave examples of lot and noah as pictures of his comiing. Mat 25;1 is the rapture you reject,without a hint of postrib gathering or a uturn in any way.Your uturn is completely,hands down 100% false and man's fabrication.

Notice two vast differences in these scenarios:

» The Protestant Rapture takes place either 3½ or seven years before Christ's return, while the church believes it will occur at His second coming. For this reason, the Protestant concept is often called the "Pre-tribulation Rapture" and our view, the "Post-tribulation Rapture."

» When believers are "caught up" in the air, Protestants believe, they will go immediately to heaven for a long, spectacular feast. We believe, though, that the saints will return to earth to fight in Christ's heavenly army and to help establish God's Kingdom.

Succinctly, then, the two differences are in timing and destination.

A Question of When

When this event occurs is the key to understanding the Rapture. If the timing is off, the sequence of events will not make sense, and this is what happens with a Pre-tribulation Rapture. To make the Rapture fit, other events must be juggled to new positions, and verifying scriptures must be wrenched out of context to substantiate it.

The most abused verse on the subject of the end times is Daniel 9:27,

and it is a linchpin in the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory: "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." Unlike the Protestants, we believe that "he" in this verse refers to Messiah, not Antichrist, for the main subject of this section is Messiah. (Request our December 1994 article, "Seventy Weeks Are Determined . . .," for further information.)

I can defend the pretrib rapture , prove your assumptions false, and never go to Daniel for any verses.

Protestants, referring to Isaiah 28:15 and "a covenant with death," say that the Antichrist makes a peace treaty for one week—seven years—with the Jews. But this makes no sense! Why would the Beast "destroy the city [Jerusalem] and the sanctuary" (Daniel 9:26), and "then . . . confirm a covenant . . . for one week" (verse 27) with the vanquished Jews? The timing is wrong! Verses 26-27a speak of events that occurred in the first century.

It makes more sense to attribute this covenant to our Savior. He was "cut off, but not for Himself" (verse 26a) by His redemptive death in AD 31. He had spent 3½ years "confirm[ing] a covenant [the New Covenant] with many," and "in the middle of the week He [brought] an end to sacrifice and offering" (verse 27a) by the sacrifice of His perfect life. This simply restates what is said in verse 26a.

Non issue rabbit trail

If this is the case, the whole idea of seven years of tribulation vanishes. Many Pre-tribulationists have begun to realize this, now claiming that the Rapture will occur 3½ years before Christ's return. How can we show that this is not when it will happen?

The 2 witnesses require 3.5 yrs,and the GT is still going on when they leave. You have no case.

The Last Trumpet

We find the answer right in the context of I Thessalonians 4; in fact, Paul mentions the exact timing twice! In verse 15 Paul says that this occurs at "the coming of the Lord," and in verse 16 Christ "descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." To combat these clear time markers, Protestants have to say that Christ returns twice and that there are two different blowings of the trumpet!

Paul himself quashes this argument in I Corinthians 15:50-52:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I Corinthians 15:50-52 is parallel to I Thessalonians 4:15-17. The phrase "the kingdom of God" in I Corinthians parallels "the coming of the Lord" in I Thessalonians. Likewise, "the last trumpet" parallels "the trumpet of God." The last trumpet announces both the resurrection of the saints and Christ's triumphant return to earth to set up His Kingdom!

We must go to Revelation 11:15-18 to confirm when the last trumpet sounds:

Then the seventh angel sounded [his trumpet]: And there were loud voices [shouts? of archangels?] in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty-four elders . . . worshiped God, saying: "We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

This prophecy adds even more to the mix. This last—seventh—trumpet announces the coming of Christ, the establishment of God's Kingdom, the judgment upon the nations, and the rewarding of the saints. They occur simultaneously!

The last trumpet sounds when Christ returns, not 3½ years before! If we compare verses 11-13 (the resurrection of the Two Witnesses) with verse 19, the "great earthquake" ties the resurrection of the saints with the beginning of the Kingdom (see also Revelation 16:18). In addition, an angel tells John in Revelation 10:7 that when "the seventh angel . . . is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished." There will be no more mystery about man becoming God when the saints are resurrected or changed to eternal spirit beings!

The last trump/trumpet is sounded every year at feast of trumpets. That trumpet twisting is a rabbit trail big tie. All the Jews knew what the last trump was.

Matthew 24:30-31 also verifies this scenario, showing that the trumpet sounds to send the angels to gather the elect from all over the earth to meet Him upon His return. To clinch the argument, verse 29 very plainly says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days. . ."! Isaiah 27:12-13, Joel 2:1-11 and Zechariah 14:3-5, 9 also confirm these events.

Destination: Earth!

The second difference between the teaching of the church and the Protestants' view is the matter of the eventual destination of those who rise to meet Christ in the air. Is it up to heaven or back to earth?

Much of the Protestant view is based on an assumption. Because Paul writes, "And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (I Thessalonians 4:17), they assume that since Christ lives in heaven, the changed saints will too. But is this assumption valid?

We have shown elsewhere that the reward of the saved is eternal life as kings and priests ruling and teaching here on earth (Revelation 5:10). But where will the saints go at the moment of Christ's return? The clearest verses that show Christians immediately returning with our King to the earth are Zechariah 14:3-5, 9:

Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. . . . Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You [Him, margin]. . . . And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. (See I Thessalonians 3:13.)

If our Savior is going to rule "over all the earth," the saints will have to settle for earth too!

The reason you do not understand any of that is because you are tring to decipher the gathering of the bride (rapture) w/o any reference to a groom or a bride. Again you have no case in that you omit the verses necessary to understand.

Protestants also use John 14:2-3 to "prove" that the saints go to heaven:

In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Here, too, they make assumptions, such as understanding "house" only as a dwelling, rather than as a family or dynasty. Thus, they narrowly define place as "an ornate abode, a mansion or palace" instead of a "position," "office," "role" or "spot." If this is the case, it is a good thing that Jesus was a carpenter while He lived on earth! He must be doing a lot of work preparing all those mansions!

How silly of us to believe Jesus went to heaven and said "where I am you may be also" and just assume he meant what he said.

Seriously, however, they gloss over the fact that Jesus says directly in this context that He would "come again." Where? To earth! He then says He will receive the saints to Himself. If He remains on earth to rule the nations, then the saints will rule with Him on the earth! Many scriptures show very plainly that God's Kingdom will be on the earth (Psalm 2:6-8; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 2:35, 44-45; 7:27; Zechariah 9:9-10; Revelation 11:15).

After the saints are resurrected, full-fledged members of the God Family, they may be able to go from earth to God's throne in the third heaven. They will live and work, though, on the earth. After the Millennium has passed and the White Throne Judgment is complete, the Father Himself will descend from heaven to make the new earth His dwelling place (Revelation 21:3, 22; 22:1-5)!

Jesus coming to earth after the GT is believed by both camps.

Earth is where the action is!

50% correct is still a poor mark my friend;
The raptured saints,the beheaded "innumerable number",144k,the 2 witnesses ,the remnant Jews,are all harvested DURING THE GT.(that would be to heaven)

But your teachers do not know this.....of course.

 

[Bookends]

Thanks, you just proved how satan is not bound, Evil still occurs. Even if you believe it was not as bad (How I can't fathom but I will give you leeway) you still have satan being instrumental in the powers of the earth. Where do you think they get their power? God said from the ruler of the earth, if the evil did not stop. then Satan could not have stopped.

[/B]

So we take a prophesy, Which God uses to prove he is God and not like the pagan Gods, and make it an allegory.

Sorry I can not do that. That would be twisting scripture and making it fit my belief system, and not make my belief system fit scripture

I like to take God at his word.

He said Jesus would come 69 weeks after, He did, He said he would be cut off, he was. He said there would be 4 great gentile kingdoms who would have an affect on jerusalem, There were (and still are)

All his prophesies have come true as said, why should he change the way he fulfills prophesy.




Psalm 110;
The Lord said to my Lord,[SUP][a][/SUP]
“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”

Still going on today, His enemies are not yet a footstool. So he is still sitting, waiting.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem[SUP][b][/SUP];
you will rule over your enemies.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]When you go to war,
your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew

hmm, So when did our lord go to war over and overcome his enemies?

Oh Wait, I know. Jesus spoke of it in matt 24, when he returns to earth.

Sorry bro. Scripture is a Logos. It is one book with one main theme, it all must come together in an orderly fashion and not contradict.. This psalm did not do as you thought it would. it actually supports a future kingdom, which we are still waiting for. when the lord Goes to war and his people willingly go with him . Not something that occurred 2000 years ago. When the lord sat at the right hand of God waiting for that time to go to war.

(jesus said of that day an how no man knows, only the father of heaven knows. That is why he is sitting at the right hand of the father, waiting. Until his time.

What verse are you using is psalm 110?


NKJV, (NASB says the same...
verse 2:The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

qereb - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7130&t=KJV

Jesus reigns while His enemies surround Him. You have a bad translation of this verse. Reigning in the midst of is way different then ruling over....Jesus is reigning now, started officially at His ascension into Heaven, He reigns over the new nation the Church, who's mother is the heavenly Jerusalem (a spiritual Jerusalem, a spiritual kingdom, I am spiritually a Jew via the adoption into God's family by the blood of Christ).

 

[Bookends]

Someone who is bound can not walk around and seek who he may devour. It does not say that demons and rulers of this world will go to satan and tell him who he needs to take out and satan orders a battle against them, It is a warning to you and me to be on our guard, because satan is creeping around us trying to take everyone of us out.

Come one man. are you serious? A bottomless pit is not jail. And I doubt god will let Satan have any visitors. You have to read so much into a verse of scripture to even think of what your trying to get me to believe.

Depend what you are bound from. Prisoners are bound to the correction facility, but they can still walk around in it. Revelations tells what Satan is bound from---deceiving the nations, I admit I have to interpret that to mean not bound to a total deception.

Jesus told Peter who he binds on earth will be bound in heaven, and who is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. So the people Peter binds on earth can't move around? Come on EG...You have to take it that way...Whomever we bind on earth can't move..ok

Satan is bound in such a way that he can't freely move like he once could. Satan can't overpower the strong man. While Satan had tremendous influence over ancient Jerusalem and Israel (an anti-type of the church)which lead to their ultimate distruction as God economy; now Satan can't do what he did to Israel to the church because he can not overcome the power of Christ in the church. Satan can not stop the Gospel from being preached even in the nations that rage against Christ.

 

[Cassian]

Depend what you are bound from. Prisoners are bound to the correction facility, but they can still walk around in it. Revelations tells what Satan is bound from---deceiving the nations, I admit I have to interpret that to mean not bound to a total deception.

Jesus told Peter who he binds on earth will be bound in heaven, and who is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. So the people Peter binds on earth can't move around? Come on EG...You have to take it that way...Whomever we bind on earth can't move..ok

Satan is bound in such a way that he can't freely move like he once could. Satan can't overpower the strong man. While Satan had tremendous influence over ancient Jerusalem and Israel (an anti-type of the church)which lead to their ultimate distruction as God economy; now Satan can't do what he did to Israel to the church because he can not overcome the power of Christ in the church. Satan can not stop the Gospel from being preached even in the nations that rage against Christ.

I see that this thread is still going. However, the last several pages has nothing to do with whether Satan is bound or is not. You are correct in that Satan is bound, however, it has absolutely nothing to do with his activity.
The originator of the OP got it correct in that Satan is bound and Christ bound Him through death. It was Christ's resurrection that actually bound Satan because it was death that Christ defeated. Heb 2:14-17 explains it very clearly. Why Christ needed to be Incarnate, why He came and that He accomplished that purpose. I John 3:8 also states it very clearly.

What amazes me is that almost 80% of the poll have no idea of why Christ came and that He actually accomplished His purpose.

 

[Bowman]

I see that this thread is still going. However, the last several pages has nothing to do with whether Satan is bound or is not. You are correct in that Satan is bound, however, it has absolutely nothing to do with his activity.
The originator of the OP got it correct in that Satan is bound and Christ bound Him through death. It was Christ's resurrection that actually bound Satan because it was death that Christ defeated. Heb 2:14-17 explains it very clearly. Why Christ needed to be Incarnate, why He came and that He accomplished that purpose. I John 3:8 also states it very clearly.

What amazes me is that almost 80% of the poll have no idea of why Christ came and that He actually accomplished His purpose.

Death is officially defeated at Judgment Day, per scripture.

People still have the choice to choose Life or death....thus, we cannot say that death is defeated until the end.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Cassian,

It was Christ's resurrection that actually bound Satan because it was death that Christ defeated

You ignore the details of the scripture regarding Satan being bound in the Abyss, as you have him currently bound and wandering around the earth! When the Lord returns to end the age, Satan will be bound in the Abyss, which is under the surface of the earth and therefore will have no access to humanity at all.

The Abyss is the same place where that angel called destroyer is currently bound and will come up at the blowing of the fifth trumpet. The Abyss is also the same place where those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into and therefore, it is a literal place. According to scripture, the chronological order is that Christ returns to end the age and then Satan is thrown into and locked in the Abyss, and that during the entire thousand year reign of Christ. Satan will be restricted there until the end of that thousand years. This is what the word of God teaches.

 

[valiant]

Hi carolb,

Allow me respond to just this one aspect to you regarding the following:

Here is the Scripture of Daniel 9:27:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP] "[/SUP]he" will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple "he" will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"

But that is because you use a false translation;

the literal translation is,. - 'He will make a firm covenant with many for one seven, and in the midst of the seven he will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and on the wings of abomination will come one who makes desolate, and even to the consummation and that determined, will wrath be poured out on the desolator.'

So it is totally false to suggest that the same he is responsible for the abomination.

But who is the he? In Hebrew the antecedent to a pronoun is normally found in the subject of the previous clause or sentence. It is extremely rare for it to apply to a previous genitive. Thus 'the coming prince' is ruled out. So the 'he' is either the people previously mentioned, or the Messiah previously mentioned. Alternately when 'he' appears with no obvious antecedent it can refer to God. Both Christ and God would fit the situation perfectly. As a consequence of the coming and death of the Messiah, the covenant is made with His people, and the sacrifices and oblations cease.

It should further be pointed out that the prophecy is about seventy sevens which are paralleled with seventy years. It will be accomplished at the end of the seventy sevens. It is thus quite clear that the seventy sevens are consecutive. It is wholly dishonest exegesis to put a break between the sixty ninth and the seventieth seven.

[/SUP]

So, you say that the "He" in the verse represents the Messiah and not the antichrist. In the scripture above, there is only one person referred to as the "He." The "He" performs three things which are as follows:

1. "He" makes a covenant with many for one 'seven'

2. In the middle of the seven, "He" causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease

3 At the temple, in the middle of the 'seven' "He" sets up an abomination that causes desolation

As I have pointed out this conclusion is based on a manipulation of the text. No abomination of desolation is set up (the phrase is completely different) and it is not set up in the midst of the seven


Sadly Christians have no conscience about manipulating the text to suit their theories. And they them claim to take the Bible to mean what it (what they make it) says

Therefore, there is only one person mentioned in Dan.9:27 as the "He" and there is no other person introduced into the verse.

That is a totally incorrect statement as I have shown. It is based on twisting the translation.

That being said, if Jesus is the "He" who is making the covenant for one 'seven' then Jesus would also have to be the "He" who causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease

That could be so although I think God is more probably in mind.

and would also have to be the "He" who sets up the abomination that causes the desolation.

There is no he who sets up an abomination of desolation. That is the consequence of manipulating the Scriptures to suit a theory.

 

[Cassian]

Death is officially defeated at Judgment Day, per scripture.

People still have the choice to choose Life or death....thus, we cannot say that death is defeated until the end.

You still have no understanding of your premise. You fail to connect the fall with the delieverance from that fall. Theologically, as long as Satan held dominion over man and God's creation with the power of death, spiritual death is not even possible. As long as man is condemned to death what does it matter that one sins. Even living a perfect life would not grant man life. This is the very specific reason Paul makes the claim that the law cannot give life. ONLY Christ and Christ's resurrection redeemed mankind, freed mankinds from the bondage of Satan, namely death.

Now man has the ability to choose between spiritual death and life. Without redemption, this is not possile.
Furthernmore you have the impossible task of showing that Christ was raised spiritually, rather than physically. After all there is a reasons He was Incarnate. I Cor 15 speaks of this very clearly. I Cor 15:22 cannot say it any clearer. Vs 52-54 restates it, though differently. To be raised immortal from our mortal nature has nothing to do with some spiritual resurrection.
When it speaks of death being the last enemy is because Christ did not change our mortal natures in this life but only for the next. When He comes again death will end, physical death. I might also add that spiritual death becomes final at that time, namely those who rejected Christ spiritually in this life will suffer the second death.

 

[Cassian]

Cassian,



You ignore the details of the scripture regarding Satan being bound in the Abyss, as you have him currently bound and wandering around the earth! When the Lord returns to end the age, Satan will be bound in the Abyss, which is under the surface of the earth and therefore will have no access to humanity at all.

same ole' situation. You need to take still another word in Rev to make it literal when it is a book filled with symbolisms, metaphors, and apocalypical meanings.

The Abyss is the same place where that angel called destroyer is currently bound and will come up at the blowing of the fifth trumpet. The Abyss is also the same place where those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into and therefore, it is a literal place. According to scripture, the chronological order is that Christ returns to end the age and then Satan is thrown into and locked in the Abyss, and that during the entire thousand year reign of Christ. Satan will be restricted there until the end of that thousand years. This is what the word of God teaches.

Once again your are resorting to modern versions of Revelation. There is no coming earthly reign of Christ. When He comes again Satan will be destroyed not bound.
We are in the Messianic Age, the reign of Christ with His Church. The thousand years (indeterminate number) is in progress now.

 

[Ahwatukee]

same ole' situation. You need to take still another word in Rev to make it literal when it is a book filled with symbolisms, metaphors, and apocalypical meanings.



Once again your are resorting to modern versions of Revelation. There is no coming earthly reign of Christ. When He comes again Satan will be destroyed not bound.
We are in the Messianic Age, the reign of Christ with His Church. The thousand years (indeterminate number) is in progress now.

We will just have to wait and see then won't we. I have prayed to the Lord to be vindicated by him in everyone's presence who did not believe his words that I spoke. There will be a literal wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, followed by Christ's return to the earth to end the age, followed by the beast and the false prophet being thrown alive into the lake of fire, which will then be followed by Satan being seized by that angel and thrown into the Abyss for that literal thousand years during Christ's reign. This is exactly what the word of God says.

 

[valiant]

You still have no understanding of your premise. You fail to connect the fall with the delieverance from that fall. Theologically, as long as Satan held dominion over man and God's creation with the power of death, spiritual death is not even possible.

what an absurd statement. Man died spiritually at the fall. He became dead in trespasses and sins.

As long as man is condemned to death what does it matter that one sins.

Of course it matters. He is adding to his condemnation because he is spiritually dead

Even living a perfect life would not grant man life.

Irrelevant, being dead in trespasses and sins they would be unable to do so.

This is the very specific reason Paul makes the claim that the law cannot give life. ONLY Christ and Christ's resurrection redeemed mankind, freed mankinds from the bondage of Satan, namely death.

And it cannot because man is spiritually dead. He is dead in trespasses and sins.

Now man has the ability to choose between spiritual death and life. Without redemption, this is not possible.

Because man is already spiritually dead he will never choose life. He will choose according to his nature.

Furthermore you have the impossible task of showing that Christ was raised spiritually, rather than physically.

Why? He was defeating death. And He did it because as man He rose from the dead. Spiritually He did not need to rise from the dead. Spiritually He never died. God cannot die. Anyone who claims to understand the detail is living under an illusion.

After all there is a reasons He was Incarnate.

True so that as perfect man He could be made sin with ours sins so that we are made righteous with His righteousness (2 Cor 5.21)

I Cor 15 speaks of this very clearly. I Cor 15:22 cannot say it any clearer. Vs 52-54 restates it, though differently. To be raised immortal from our mortal nature has nothing to do with some spiritual resurrection.

Our spiritual resurrection took place when we became Christians. It is the first resurrection - see Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1-4; Rom 6.2-11

When it speaks of death being the last enemy is because Christ did not change our mortal natures in this life but only for the next.

It was the last enemy because it ceased at the end of time. Actually I have an immortal nature. I have eternal life

When He comes again death will end, physical death.

That is true.

I might also add that spiritual death becomes final at that time, namely those who rejected Christ spiritually in this life will suffer the second death.

They rejected Him because they were spiritually dead. The second death is the final death of spiritually dead mortals.

 

[popeye]

You still have no understanding of your premise. You fail to connect the fall with the delieverance from that fall. Theologically, as long as Satan held dominion over man and God's creation with the power of death, spiritual death is not even possible. As long as man is condemned to death what does it matter that one sins. Even living a perfect life would not grant man life. This is the very specific reason Paul makes the claim that the law cannot give life. ONLY Christ and Christ's resurrection redeemed mankind, freed mankinds from the bondage of Satan, namely death.

Now man has the ability to choose between spiritual death and life. Without redemption, this is not possile.
Furthernmore you have the impossible task of showing that Christ was raised spiritually, rather than physically. After all there is a reasons He was Incarnate. I Cor 15 speaks of this very clearly. I Cor 15:22 cannot say it any clearer. Vs 52-54 restates it, though differently. To be raised immortal from our mortal nature has nothing to do with some spiritual resurrection.
When it speaks of death being the last enemy is because Christ did not change our mortal natures in this life but only for the next. When He comes again death will end, physical death. I might also add that spiritual death becomes final at that time, namely those who rejected Christ spiritually in this life will suffer the second death.

Exactly. It is a"purchase" issue,a priesthood issue,and a legal /authority issue.The reason the devil is in fact still here is because only part of mankind is redeemed. The rest are of their father the devil.Neither is the planet redeemed.
The bonus of healing,abundant life,and the defeat of the devil are testimony of how great our God is