After Jesus and the disciples cast out demons, those same demons were able to possess anyone else that they were able to. By Jesus being crucified, he took away the ammunition of the powers of darkness which was the law, for the power of sin is the law. By meeting the righteous requirements of the law completely, those who were now saved by grace through faith were no longer under the power of the law and that is how he disarmed the powers of darkness. However, this does not have anything to do with Satan's literal thousand year binding at the end of the age. It is sad when you can read the scripture plainly, but because of the teachings of amillennialism you spiritualize everything and thereby distort God's true meaning.
Is the Devil bound right now...?
- Thread starter Bowman
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But then they discovered that the Old Testament was full of such references. Consider Peter's speeches in Acts. Neither Peter nor Paul (nor James in Acts 15) found it difficult to find Old Testament references to the first coming of Jesus.
Soooo? This is a reference to the first coming of Jesus Who would be crowned after His resurrection as the Davidic king ruling over His eternal kingdom. We on earth share His throne (EPh 2.5-6) while also do the saints in heaven (Rev 20.4-5) It is being established and upheld and the zeal of the Lord of hosts is performing it.
And this is precisely what Jesus has been doing for the last 2000 years and is doing now.
And that is precisely what Jesus Christ is accomplishing NOW.
which is what they are doing. They are going to Jerusalem which is in heaven (Gal 4.20 ff; Heb 12.20-22)
true - at His first coming.
As indeed it is (Acts 2.30-36). As He said to Pilate, 'I am a king but my kingdom is not of this world'/
true as He was at His first coming.
true. I am a member of His eternal kingdom (Col 1.13).
LOL none of the quotations say that. You are just inventing that. we call it CHEATING.
what better description of the growth of Christ's kingdom NOW on earth?
It says nothing about a final battle.Men are battling with His people all the time, and then being converted and coming and worshiping Him in Jerusalem in heaven (Gal 4.20 ff; Heb 12.20-22)
Is He not served now? Ask people on this site.
That is why we are called Christians
Of course it is the first advent of Christ when He became king and began to establish His kingdom.
Bring them on LOL without your false interpretations.
If Satan was not bound we would have no chance against him. Tell me who is in control of the appointment of all the rulers in the world including the cruel dictators? GOD!!!!! (Rom 13). So it seems that He does have control. You simply refuse to accept it.
Let others judge, not just your cronies.
Yes both before and after the cross. Evil men who open themselves to the occult will be possessed.
By rising again He defeated death and led in triumph the evil princes whom He had defeated. It has nothing to do with the Law.
So He didn't really disarm them like He claimed? Ephesians 6.10 ff doesn't give the impression you give. There they are not seen as disarmed. Indeed they are seen as well equipped.
I follow no teachings. I believe the Scriptures which clearly teach what I teach. My teaching comes from there. Yours came from Darby and Newton..
By rising again He defeated death and led in triumph the evil princes whom He had defeated. It has nothing to do with the Law.
So He didn't really disarm them like He claimed? Ephesians 6.10 ff doesn't give the impression you give. There they are not seen as disarmed. Indeed they are seen as well equipped.
I follow no teachings. I believe the Scriptures which clearly teach what I teach. My teaching comes from there. Yours came from Darby and Newton..
You are mixing two passages here, one Jesus is referring to the end of the Jewish system of centralized temple worship. The other Paul states the 2nd physical coming of Christ in which I believe He'll ushering the eternal state and hand everything back over to the Father.About the end of what Jesus is talking about, the end of what? the end could be the end of the Jewish system, which if you pay close attention to the context, that's exactly what he is talking about. There are many ends, when you are in your 90s, you'll be in your end of days.
Yah, at the physical second coming, not the end of Jerusalem and temple worship.
Already fulfilled in the time between Daniels prophecy and Christ's coming..Christians like to skip over history to apply prophecy to the future, makes it more exciting I guess. I would urge you to look up Jay Adams and his teaching on Daniel, and it will clear it up for you (best I every heard on Daniel, imo). That is if you're willing entertain a valid and biblical position that's goes against what you think is true.
True, God's people aren't appointed to God's wrath, but man's wrath we are subjected to for those against God hate us. When God wrath comes, He will save us, we will meet Him in the air as He comes down with the saint (who passed on) and then continue down to a new heaven and new earth. The wicked will be taken out. This is the plain teaching of the bible.
We'll have eternal rest when He comes again. Why would my Dad who is with the Lord now in bliss want to return to earth were sin, death and struggle still exists, even at a limited amount? makes no sense to me.
We'll have eternal rest when He comes again. Why would my Dad who is with the Lord now in bliss want to return to earth were sin, death and struggle still exists, even at a limited amount? makes no sense to me.
C
Thank you. Yes, I think many will be mislead by the antichrist, thinking he is the true Christ coming to "rapture" them away. To (save them),, Taken "up in the air",,,,,Air simply means "breath of life", not that we will be taken up by Christ. This is how most of the world will be deceived. The bible says that Jesus will descend to earth, not ascend. His will come down to touch his feet on the Mount. I appreciate you input & suggestions of study.
I give up, no sense in conversing with you. Everywhere in the bible 1000 yrs is used it is never meant to be literal, but complete or all of something or period of time as an age. You tell me I need to pay attention to context, and I give you context and it's complete ignored. It's like talking to a wall, why continue it...If you can't converse with me with an open mind instead of a biased one, then let's just forget it? huh?
The phrase "Day of the Lord" is use through-out scripture, all in means is God's intervention with mankind, usually with His Wrath against a city or nation, and blessing always follow to those who remain. And yes I do believe there will be a final "Day of the Lord" where the wicked is judged and removed into eternal torment and those in Christ will forever be with Him in a new heaven and earth.
Friend, your claim regarding the day of the Lord is not supported by Scripture! I know what the day of the Lord is and it is not some passive intervention with mankind, as is plainly demonstrated by the following Scriptures:
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish
in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”
(Zeph.1:1-3)
"See, the day of the Lord is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven
and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.(Isaiah 13:9-13)
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in the book of Revelation is a detailed account
of the day of the Lord and with just the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet alone the percentage
of fatalities comes to 4.4 billion people based on a current population of 7 billion. Not only that,
but how can you seriously down-play the day of the Lord by saying that all it refers to is God's
intervention with mankind, when regarding this time period Jesus said that it would be a time of great
distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to
be equaled again. During this time of God's wrath, he is going to decimate the population of the
earth and dismantle all of human government. As I said, this is not your typical wrath against Israel,
but an unprecedented event that takes place at the end of the age. Some friendly advice to you would
be to do a topical study on the day of the Lord throughout the OT and NT and think that you will gain
a better understanding of this event. Also, another good study regarding the dismantling of the governments
and the establishment of Christ's millennial kingdom would be to read Dan.2:27-45.
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish
in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”
(Zeph.1:1-3)
"See, the day of the Lord is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven
and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.(Isaiah 13:9-13)
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in the book of Revelation is a detailed account
of the day of the Lord and with just the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet alone the percentage
of fatalities comes to 4.4 billion people based on a current population of 7 billion. Not only that,
but how can you seriously down-play the day of the Lord by saying that all it refers to is God's
intervention with mankind, when regarding this time period Jesus said that it would be a time of great
distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to
be equaled again. During this time of God's wrath, he is going to decimate the population of the
earth and dismantle all of human government. As I said, this is not your typical wrath against Israel,
but an unprecedented event that takes place at the end of the age. Some friendly advice to you would
be to do a topical study on the day of the Lord throughout the OT and NT and think that you will gain
a better understanding of this event. Also, another good study regarding the dismantling of the governments
and the establishment of Christ's millennial kingdom would be to read Dan.2:27-45.
Here is one example, I can give more but won't because you will not listen....
Ohadiad...Context coming judgment on Edom...
15 “For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near;
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
Go ahead, put on your 21st century goggles and say it's yet future.
Ohadiad...Context coming judgment on Edom...
15 “For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near;
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
Go ahead, put on your 21st century goggles and say it's yet future.
P
Your theory just got a hole blown in it an aircraft carrier could sail through.
Unless you want to stick with "Lot stayed in sodom while the wicked were removed" concept.
there is no such thing.
You absolutely made that up.
1st gathering of the righteous;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
NOW THE WICKED ARE HARVESTED: (in keeping of the same pattern God used with Lot and Noah)
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
God's pattern. Righteous taken first. Hands down,slam dunk 100% truth.
That was rev 14 BTW
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C
I should of empathize more here on "being caught up in the air"
caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Interesting read:
So far, so good. But how did this teaching of the apostle Paul ever come to be called the Rapture? The answer lies in the word translated "shall be caught up" (Greek harpagésómetha). In Latin, this word is rapere, from which "rapture" is derived. Free of any arcane or mysterious interpretation, it simply means "to be caught up," "snatched" or "seized."
The trouble begins when people confuse this meaning with another definition of rapture that has nothing to do with the biblical concept: "a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion; a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things." When people blur these meanings, a picture develops of a strange, otherworldly experience preached by fire-breathing preachers to compel sinners to repent before God's wrath burns them to cinders.
To avoid this connotation, the church has in the recent past used other words to describe this future event: "Christ's second coming," "when we are changed," and most often, "the first resurrection." These euphemisms serve a good purpose in distancing the church from groups that hold unscriptural beliefs on this topic.
The Common Belief
Those who teach the Rapture frequently begin with I Thessalonians 4:16-17, but soon afterward they move into areas unsupported in the Bible. They make assumptions that are suspect. Worst, they fail to consider the clear order of events presented in Revelation, pinpointing when this astounding miracle will occur.
What do they believe? They believe that at some point in the near future, Jesus Christ will return and "snatch away" all Christians on the earth. Those who believe in Jesus will rise to meet Him in the air, and He will whisk them off to heaven for a 3½-to-seven-year Marriage Supper. In the meantime here on earth, untold destruction occurs when professing "born-again Christians" suddenly vanish while at the controls of cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, heavy equipment and the like. "Unsaved" relatives and friends will frantically and unsuccessfully search for their raptured loved ones. The media will provide 24-hour coverage of the mysterious disappearance of millions of people, speculating wildly on its cause—everything from a mass alien abduction to shifting dimensions and levels of consciousness.
Does this sound like something our God would do?
On the other hand, the church's understanding of the first resurrection is more straightforward. On the day Christ returns to earth to establish His Kingdom, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and converted will follow. They will meet Him in the air and immediately return to earth as a vast army of spirit beings to defeat the Beast and False Prophet in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Revelation 19:14; Joel 3:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-5).
Notice two vast differences in these scenarios:
» The Protestant Rapture takes place either 3½ or seven years before Christ's return, while the church believes it will occur at His second coming. For this reason, the Protestant concept is often called the "Pre-tribulation Rapture" and our view, the "Post-tribulation Rapture."
» When believers are "caught up" in the air, Protestants believe, they will go immediately to heaven for a long, spectacular feast. We believe, though, that the saints will return to earth to fight in Christ's heavenly army and to help establish God's Kingdom.
Succinctly, then, the two differences are in timing and destination.
A Question of When
When this event occurs is the key to understanding the Rapture. If the timing is off, the sequence of events will not make sense, and this is what happens with a Pre-tribulation Rapture. To make the Rapture fit, other events must be juggled to new positions, and verifying scriptures must be wrenched out of context to substantiate it.
The most abused verse on the subject of the end times is Daniel 9:27, and it is a linchpin in the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory: "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." Unlike the Protestants, we believe that "he" in this verse refers to Messiah, not Antichrist, for the main subject of this section is Messiah. (Request our December 1994 article, "Seventy Weeks Are Determined . . .," for further information.)
Protestants, referring to Isaiah 28:15 and "a covenant with death," say that the Antichrist makes a peace treaty for one week—seven years—with the Jews. But this makes no sense! Why would the Beast "destroy the city [Jerusalem] and the sanctuary" (Daniel 9:26), and "then . . . confirm a covenant . . . for one week" (verse 27) with the vanquished Jews? The timing is wrong! Verses 26-27a speak of events that occurred in the first century.
It makes more sense to attribute this covenant to our Savior. He was "cut off, but not for Himself" (verse 26a) by His redemptive death in AD 31. He had spent 3½ years "confirm[ing] a covenant [the New Covenant] with many," and "in the middle of the week He [brought] an end to sacrifice and offering" (verse 27a) by the sacrifice of His perfect life. This simply restates what is said in verse 26a.
If this is the case, the whole idea of seven years of tribulation vanishes. Many Pre-tribulationists have begun to realize this, now claiming that the Rapture will occur 3½ years before Christ's return. How can we show that this is not when it will happen?
The Last Trumpet
We find the answer right in the context of I Thessalonians 4; in fact, Paul mentions the exact timing twice! In verse 15 Paul says that this occurs at "the coming of the Lord," and in verse 16 Christ "descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." To combat these clear time markers, Protestants have to say that Christ returns twice and that there are two different blowings of the trumpet!
Paul himself quashes this argument in I Corinthians 15:50-52:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I Corinthians 15:50-52 is parallel to I Thessalonians 4:15-17. The phrase "the kingdom of God" in I Corinthians parallels "the coming of the Lord" in I Thessalonians. Likewise, "the last trumpet" parallels "the trumpet of God." The last trumpet announces both the resurrection of the saints and Christ's triumphant return to earth to set up His Kingdom!
We must go to Revelation 11:15-18 to confirm when the last trumpet sounds:
Then the seventh angel sounded [his trumpet]: And there were loud voices [shouts? of archangels?] in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty-four elders . . . worshiped God, saying: "We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."
This prophecy adds even more to the mix. This last—seventh—trumpet announces the coming of Christ, the establishment of God's Kingdom, the judgment upon the nations, and the rewarding of the saints. They occur simultaneously!
The last trumpet sounds when Christ returns, not 3½ years before! If we compare verses 11-13 (the resurrection of the Two Witnesses) with verse 19, the "great earthquake" ties the resurrection of the saints with the beginning of the Kingdom (see also Revelation 16:18). In addition, an angel tells John in Revelation 10:7 that when "the seventh angel . . . is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished." There will be no more mystery about man becoming God when the saints are resurrected or changed to eternal spirit beings!
Matthew 24:30-31 also verifies this scenario, showing that the trumpet sounds to send the angels to gather the elect from all over the earth to meet Him upon His return. To clinch the argument, verse 29 very plainly says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days. . ."! Isaiah 27:12-13, Joel 2:1-11 and Zechariah 14:3-5, 9 also confirm these events.
Destination: Earth!
The second difference between the teaching of the church and the Protestants' view is the matter of the eventual destination of those who rise to meet Christ in the air. Is it up to heaven or back to earth?
Much of the Protestant view is based on an assumption. Because Paul writes, "And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (I Thessalonians 4:17), they assume that since Christ lives in heaven, the changed saints will too. But is this assumption valid?
We have shown elsewhere that the reward of the saved is eternal life as kings and priests ruling and teaching here on earth (Revelation 5:10). But where will the saints go at the moment of Christ's return? The clearest verses that show Christians immediately returning with our King to the earth are Zechariah 14:3-5, 9:
Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. . . . Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You [Him, margin]. . . . And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. (See I Thessalonians 3:13.)
If our Savior is going to rule "over all the earth," the saints will have to settle for earth too!
Protestants also use John 14:2-3 to "prove" that the saints go to heaven:
In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Here, too, they make assumptions, such as understanding "house" only as a dwelling, rather than as a family or dynasty. Thus, they narrowly define place as "an ornate abode, a mansion or palace" instead of a "position," "office," "role" or "spot." If this is the case, it is a good thing that Jesus was a carpenter while He lived on earth! He must be doing a lot of work preparing all those mansions!
Seriously, however, they gloss over the fact that Jesus says directly in this context that He would "come again." Where? To earth! He then says He will receive the saints to Himself. If He remains on earth to rule the nations, then the saints will rule with Him on the earth! Many scriptures show very plainly that God's Kingdom will be on the earth (Psalm 2:6-8; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 2:35, 44-45; 7:27; Zechariah 9:9-10; Revelation 11:15).
After the saints are resurrected, full-fledged members of the God Family, they may be able to go from earth to God's throne in the third heaven. They will live and work, though, on the earth. After the Millennium has passed and the White Throne Judgment is complete, the Father Himself will descend from heaven to make the new earth His dwelling place (Revelation 21:3, 22; 22:1-5)!
Earth is where the action is!
caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Interesting read:
So far, so good. But how did this teaching of the apostle Paul ever come to be called the Rapture? The answer lies in the word translated "shall be caught up" (Greek harpagésómetha). In Latin, this word is rapere, from which "rapture" is derived. Free of any arcane or mysterious interpretation, it simply means "to be caught up," "snatched" or "seized."
The trouble begins when people confuse this meaning with another definition of rapture that has nothing to do with the biblical concept: "a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion; a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things." When people blur these meanings, a picture develops of a strange, otherworldly experience preached by fire-breathing preachers to compel sinners to repent before God's wrath burns them to cinders.
To avoid this connotation, the church has in the recent past used other words to describe this future event: "Christ's second coming," "when we are changed," and most often, "the first resurrection." These euphemisms serve a good purpose in distancing the church from groups that hold unscriptural beliefs on this topic.
The Common Belief
Those who teach the Rapture frequently begin with I Thessalonians 4:16-17, but soon afterward they move into areas unsupported in the Bible. They make assumptions that are suspect. Worst, they fail to consider the clear order of events presented in Revelation, pinpointing when this astounding miracle will occur.
What do they believe? They believe that at some point in the near future, Jesus Christ will return and "snatch away" all Christians on the earth. Those who believe in Jesus will rise to meet Him in the air, and He will whisk them off to heaven for a 3½-to-seven-year Marriage Supper. In the meantime here on earth, untold destruction occurs when professing "born-again Christians" suddenly vanish while at the controls of cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, heavy equipment and the like. "Unsaved" relatives and friends will frantically and unsuccessfully search for their raptured loved ones. The media will provide 24-hour coverage of the mysterious disappearance of millions of people, speculating wildly on its cause—everything from a mass alien abduction to shifting dimensions and levels of consciousness.
Does this sound like something our God would do?
On the other hand, the church's understanding of the first resurrection is more straightforward. On the day Christ returns to earth to establish His Kingdom, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and converted will follow. They will meet Him in the air and immediately return to earth as a vast army of spirit beings to defeat the Beast and False Prophet in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Revelation 19:14; Joel 3:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-5).
Notice two vast differences in these scenarios:
» The Protestant Rapture takes place either 3½ or seven years before Christ's return, while the church believes it will occur at His second coming. For this reason, the Protestant concept is often called the "Pre-tribulation Rapture" and our view, the "Post-tribulation Rapture."
» When believers are "caught up" in the air, Protestants believe, they will go immediately to heaven for a long, spectacular feast. We believe, though, that the saints will return to earth to fight in Christ's heavenly army and to help establish God's Kingdom.
Succinctly, then, the two differences are in timing and destination.
A Question of When
When this event occurs is the key to understanding the Rapture. If the timing is off, the sequence of events will not make sense, and this is what happens with a Pre-tribulation Rapture. To make the Rapture fit, other events must be juggled to new positions, and verifying scriptures must be wrenched out of context to substantiate it.
The most abused verse on the subject of the end times is Daniel 9:27, and it is a linchpin in the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory: "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." Unlike the Protestants, we believe that "he" in this verse refers to Messiah, not Antichrist, for the main subject of this section is Messiah. (Request our December 1994 article, "Seventy Weeks Are Determined . . .," for further information.)
Protestants, referring to Isaiah 28:15 and "a covenant with death," say that the Antichrist makes a peace treaty for one week—seven years—with the Jews. But this makes no sense! Why would the Beast "destroy the city [Jerusalem] and the sanctuary" (Daniel 9:26), and "then . . . confirm a covenant . . . for one week" (verse 27) with the vanquished Jews? The timing is wrong! Verses 26-27a speak of events that occurred in the first century.
It makes more sense to attribute this covenant to our Savior. He was "cut off, but not for Himself" (verse 26a) by His redemptive death in AD 31. He had spent 3½ years "confirm[ing] a covenant [the New Covenant] with many," and "in the middle of the week He [brought] an end to sacrifice and offering" (verse 27a) by the sacrifice of His perfect life. This simply restates what is said in verse 26a.
If this is the case, the whole idea of seven years of tribulation vanishes. Many Pre-tribulationists have begun to realize this, now claiming that the Rapture will occur 3½ years before Christ's return. How can we show that this is not when it will happen?
The Last Trumpet
We find the answer right in the context of I Thessalonians 4; in fact, Paul mentions the exact timing twice! In verse 15 Paul says that this occurs at "the coming of the Lord," and in verse 16 Christ "descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." To combat these clear time markers, Protestants have to say that Christ returns twice and that there are two different blowings of the trumpet!
Paul himself quashes this argument in I Corinthians 15:50-52:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I Corinthians 15:50-52 is parallel to I Thessalonians 4:15-17. The phrase "the kingdom of God" in I Corinthians parallels "the coming of the Lord" in I Thessalonians. Likewise, "the last trumpet" parallels "the trumpet of God." The last trumpet announces both the resurrection of the saints and Christ's triumphant return to earth to set up His Kingdom!
We must go to Revelation 11:15-18 to confirm when the last trumpet sounds:
Then the seventh angel sounded [his trumpet]: And there were loud voices [shouts? of archangels?] in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" And the twenty-four elders . . . worshiped God, saying: "We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."
This prophecy adds even more to the mix. This last—seventh—trumpet announces the coming of Christ, the establishment of God's Kingdom, the judgment upon the nations, and the rewarding of the saints. They occur simultaneously!
The last trumpet sounds when Christ returns, not 3½ years before! If we compare verses 11-13 (the resurrection of the Two Witnesses) with verse 19, the "great earthquake" ties the resurrection of the saints with the beginning of the Kingdom (see also Revelation 16:18). In addition, an angel tells John in Revelation 10:7 that when "the seventh angel . . . is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished." There will be no more mystery about man becoming God when the saints are resurrected or changed to eternal spirit beings!
Matthew 24:30-31 also verifies this scenario, showing that the trumpet sounds to send the angels to gather the elect from all over the earth to meet Him upon His return. To clinch the argument, verse 29 very plainly says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days. . ."! Isaiah 27:12-13, Joel 2:1-11 and Zechariah 14:3-5, 9 also confirm these events.
Destination: Earth!
The second difference between the teaching of the church and the Protestants' view is the matter of the eventual destination of those who rise to meet Christ in the air. Is it up to heaven or back to earth?
Much of the Protestant view is based on an assumption. Because Paul writes, "And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (I Thessalonians 4:17), they assume that since Christ lives in heaven, the changed saints will too. But is this assumption valid?
We have shown elsewhere that the reward of the saved is eternal life as kings and priests ruling and teaching here on earth (Revelation 5:10). But where will the saints go at the moment of Christ's return? The clearest verses that show Christians immediately returning with our King to the earth are Zechariah 14:3-5, 9:
Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. . . . Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You [Him, margin]. . . . And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. (See I Thessalonians 3:13.)
If our Savior is going to rule "over all the earth," the saints will have to settle for earth too!
Protestants also use John 14:2-3 to "prove" that the saints go to heaven:
In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Here, too, they make assumptions, such as understanding "house" only as a dwelling, rather than as a family or dynasty. Thus, they narrowly define place as "an ornate abode, a mansion or palace" instead of a "position," "office," "role" or "spot." If this is the case, it is a good thing that Jesus was a carpenter while He lived on earth! He must be doing a lot of work preparing all those mansions!
Seriously, however, they gloss over the fact that Jesus says directly in this context that He would "come again." Where? To earth! He then says He will receive the saints to Himself. If He remains on earth to rule the nations, then the saints will rule with Him on the earth! Many scriptures show very plainly that God's Kingdom will be on the earth (Psalm 2:6-8; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 2:35, 44-45; 7:27; Zechariah 9:9-10; Revelation 11:15).
After the saints are resurrected, full-fledged members of the God Family, they may be able to go from earth to God's throne in the third heaven. They will live and work, though, on the earth. After the Millennium has passed and the White Throne Judgment is complete, the Father Himself will descend from heaven to make the new earth His dwelling place (Revelation 21:3, 22; 22:1-5)!
Earth is where the action is!
Hi carolb,
Allow me respond to just this one aspect to you regarding the following:
Here is the Scripture of Daniel 9:27:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP] "[/SUP]he" will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple "he" will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"
[/SUP]So, you say that the "He" in the verse represents the Messiah and not the antichrist. In the scripture above, there is only one person referred to as the "He." The "He" performs three things which are as follows:
1. "He" makes a covenant with many for one 'seven'
2. In the middle of the seven, "He" causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease
3 At the temple, in the middle of the 'seven' "He" sets up an abomination that causes desolation
Therefore, there is only one person mentioned in Dan.9:27 as the "He" and there is no other person introduced into the verse. That being said, if Jesus is the "He" who is making the covenant for one 'seven' then Jesus would also have to be the "He" who causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease and would also have to be the "He" who sets up the abomination that causes the desolation. And the latter is where the problem lies in regards to Jesus being the "He" of the verse. The reason why this presents a problem is because of what the abomination is, which is the word "bdelugma" which according to Strong's is as follows:
an abominable thing, an accursed thing
derived from bdēō, "to reek with stench") – properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent (abominable, detestable); (figuratively) moral horror as a stench to God (like when people refuse to hear and obey His voice).
Therefore, if you have Jesus as the "He" of the scripture, then "He" would also have to be, according to Jesus himself, the One who sets up the abomination in the holy place, which according to the definition of the word, would be a blasphemy against God the Father and to Jesus himself. Also, if you will notice the last part of the verse which says, "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" which is in reference to his demise when Jesus returns to end the age, also referred to as "the one who goes to his destruction." All that being said, Jesus could not be the "He" of the verse and that because he himself would have to be the one who sets up the abomination in the holy place in the temple.
Expositors who hold to this same teaching that you have presented, in an effort to protect their claim, they attempt to circumvent the scripture by introducing a second person into the verse, which is not possible as there is no other person mentioned in the verse. To be clear, the "He" in the verse performs all three actions. Based on this information the person is left with two choices, 1. circumvent/distort the scripture to support their position or 2. In light of this information, admit the error of interpretation, understanding that the "He" in the verse is in reference to the ruler of the people who was mentioned in verse 26, that man of lawlessness, the antichrist. One thing is absolutely clear and that is that Jesus cannot be the "He" who is setting up the abomination and therefore, neither can he be the one making the covenant or causing the sacrifice and offerings to cease.
Based on the information that I have provided, I pray that you will take a deeper look at the Scripture and reconsider your position.
Allow me respond to just this one aspect to you regarding the following:
Here is the Scripture of Daniel 9:27:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP] "[/SUP]he" will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple "he" will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"
[/SUP]So, you say that the "He" in the verse represents the Messiah and not the antichrist. In the scripture above, there is only one person referred to as the "He." The "He" performs three things which are as follows:
1. "He" makes a covenant with many for one 'seven'
2. In the middle of the seven, "He" causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease
3 At the temple, in the middle of the 'seven' "He" sets up an abomination that causes desolation
Therefore, there is only one person mentioned in Dan.9:27 as the "He" and there is no other person introduced into the verse. That being said, if Jesus is the "He" who is making the covenant for one 'seven' then Jesus would also have to be the "He" who causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease and would also have to be the "He" who sets up the abomination that causes the desolation. And the latter is where the problem lies in regards to Jesus being the "He" of the verse. The reason why this presents a problem is because of what the abomination is, which is the word "bdelugma" which according to Strong's is as follows:
an abominable thing, an accursed thing
derived from bdēō, "to reek with stench") – properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent (abominable, detestable); (figuratively) moral horror as a stench to God (like when people refuse to hear and obey His voice).
Therefore, if you have Jesus as the "He" of the scripture, then "He" would also have to be, according to Jesus himself, the One who sets up the abomination in the holy place, which according to the definition of the word, would be a blasphemy against God the Father and to Jesus himself. Also, if you will notice the last part of the verse which says, "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" which is in reference to his demise when Jesus returns to end the age, also referred to as "the one who goes to his destruction." All that being said, Jesus could not be the "He" of the verse and that because he himself would have to be the one who sets up the abomination in the holy place in the temple.
Expositors who hold to this same teaching that you have presented, in an effort to protect their claim, they attempt to circumvent the scripture by introducing a second person into the verse, which is not possible as there is no other person mentioned in the verse. To be clear, the "He" in the verse performs all three actions. Based on this information the person is left with two choices, 1. circumvent/distort the scripture to support their position or 2. In light of this information, admit the error of interpretation, understanding that the "He" in the verse is in reference to the ruler of the people who was mentioned in verse 26, that man of lawlessness, the antichrist. One thing is absolutely clear and that is that Jesus cannot be the "He" who is setting up the abomination and therefore, neither can he be the one making the covenant or causing the sacrifice and offerings to cease.
Based on the information that I have provided, I pray that you will take a deeper look at the Scripture and reconsider your position.